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Angel/Angelus/Twilight

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
15,646
Age
72
Location
rome, georgia
Are the events of s08 happening after s05 of AtS ? But we know from The Girl In Question that at least some of the events happen at the same time. And I haven't read After The Fall but I assume it takes place right after Not Fade Away. So how is Angel everywhere at once ?
The events of Season 8 take place somewhere between 1 1/2 and 2 years after the end of Season 7, if I remember correctly, which puts it after "Not Fade Away," and the "After The Fall" arc in IDW comics, which along with a couple of miniseries featuring Spike, are the only part of that publisher's issues that Joss was involved in, and has acknowledged as canon.

"The Girl In Question" was mentioned briefly at the beginning of Season 8 as being part of a hoax perpetrated by Giles and Andrew to mislead some of Buffy's enemies (and, I suspect, a couple of her old boyfriends) into thinking that she was in Rome, having an affair with the Immortal, when she was, in fact, running a Slayer academy headquartered in a castle in the mountains, somewhere in Europe.
 
Evil Seal
Evil Seal
Thanks for the clarification !

flow

Scooby
Joined
May 4, 2017
Messages
813
As I have mentioned before, I am not reading the Comics, but i have just started to watch Reviews for the Comics, that someone has put up on YouTube. You can find them here:

idkmybffjill730

He said about the Twilight arc that Twilight was not an entity but a reality, that was created by Buffy and Angel and then possessed Angel. The answer to the original question would therefore be, that Angel, by the time he killed Giles, was neither Angelus nor Twilight but he was Angel, possessed by Twilight. Like Xander was Xander possessed by a hyena demon, when he attacked Buffy in The Pack. Of course, that was just that youtubers interpretion of what happened, but maybe it makes sense to you.

Don`t ask me though, how a reality can possess a person. I guess, it is just a comic-thing.

flow
 
Edit to add: it might help your case, that the youtuber, who does this review, is a Bangel :)

flow
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
Why would i care that he is a Bangel ;) ;)

amberjane

Potential
Joined
Aug 25, 2015
Messages
113
Age
28
Location
NY
ok so im only responding to the first few messages as i dont want to forget my points, and i may never actually finish reading this entire thread, so im sorry if someone mentioned these already...

1. joss made an error concerning warren referencing a dreamlike scenario created by the first for andrew, not about whether or not warren officially died. this was “patched” in the following issue where amy called warren out on referencing something he had no part in, but ultimately was admitted that joss had just forgotten the actual source.

2. i could see angel being twilight considering the evolution of angel through AtS. he starts off with helping anyone he can. then he turns against lawyers and lets darla and dru munch on them, while also ignoring the little guys that angel investigations still help. by the time season 5 is playing, angel creates his own plan to defeat the black thorn and does so by looking at the bigger picture. thats basically twilight’s gimic: the bigger picture. but it paints and even bigger picture for angel. angel is angel in that sense, but he is still overcome by twilight’s influence and persuasion. however, his loyalty to twilight and to this cause overpowers his loyalty to buffy and what she wants, and that is whats out of character that i cant make sense of. the rest i can kind of piece together, but of course it took a reread and some other peoples opinions to see the comics and the show are not as disconnected as i thought.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
4,040
Location
Texas
Black Thorn
Yeah I’ve since read S9 of A/F and i have a better idea of what they were trying to do. But maintain thatTwilight arc is wildly OOC.

And honestly the more i read and watch reviews etc i feel like Joss had this Twilight idea that was so Meta to him, so on the nose re pop culture that stemmed from Buffy/Angel and he wanted to tell this story at all costs with little regard for Angel’s character.

But i think Christos does his best of cleaning it up in S9.
 

EarthLogic

Scooby
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
1,330
Location
London, UK
Black Thorn
And honestly the more i read and watch reviews etc i feel like Joss had this Twilight idea that was so Meta to him, so on the nose re pop culture that stemmed from Buffy/Angel and he wanted to tell this story at all costs with little regard for Angel’s character.
Yes, and I also think he views Buffy/Angel very differently from fandom - more through a S2 'doomed romance' lens to the exclusion of everything that happens to the characters both in relation to each other and as individuals, which is why his own meta seemed like such a good idea to him. He's always been more invested in the BtVS side of things than the AtS anyway, so despite his reputation for being really involved as a showrunner I really doubt whether he truly understands AtS.

But i think Christos does his best of cleaning it up in S9.
Do you think he's successful?
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
4,040
Location
Texas
Black Thorn
Do you think he's successful?
No i think the damage was done. I think he took some of the sting away but ... it’s not enough. Now Angel is on a new Amends journey. It’s become rather cyclical.
 

GreyWalker1958

Potential
Joined
Jan 25, 2020
Messages
134
Age
31
Oh there are plenty. Aside from the ones you mentioned, there is also Fred. Her soul was destroyed in the resurrection of Illyria, yet she is back again. I believe Dawn said something about crushing on Angel or whatever, despite her expressing a clear Riley preference during S5. We could do this forever...
I'm pretty much of two minds on that. 1) Its nice that Fred was able to pop up through against IIlyria's wishes but 2) the way it played out in Angel & Faith S10 through Finale (S12) makes me think such a retcon makes Wesley's assessment look like a simple greiving overreaction and gullibility on par with Sahjahn's prophecy meddling.


Just forget it and ignore it. This Angel has no relation to either AtS S5 Angel (Whedon's own freaking version of Angel) nor ATF Angel. Whedon simply threw Angel and AtS under the bus for this nonsense. There is no way that you will find an answer to your question. This arc I believe was also written by someone who hadn't even seen AtS, at all. So all they knew was BtVS Angel, and BtVS!Angel's role was sadly all about Buffy (like S8). Just ignore this trash because they made it so easy to call foul, in so many ways. The retcons, the character assassinations and the utter destruction of Angel and AtS. Just see them as non-canon and do away with them...
If there's any consolation (though the undermining of post-ATF is a real migraine for me), I wished Twilight possessed Parker Abrams. Least that way, Buffy would've easily killed him and destroyed the seed
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,021
Age
48
LOL - well tbh I'm not super excited to jump into the Buffy and Spike love saga that are Seasons 9-11 but I am going to press forward. I wish there was like a summary version I could read...
Both seasons nine and ten for the Buffy and Angel comics have Wikipedia entries that summerise the plots. Season eleven isn't but to be honest I don't you'll enjoy either title - Angel season eleven is pretty crap in fairness and only worth it for some good background on Liam's mortal family in one issue with one with the clock on the back.

I think it is consistent but then again I've spent time thinking about I stayed away from the comics for a long time because of Twilight. I think Angel's motivation needed more exploration but I think he got burnt out and wanted to start again but some possession and misguided intervention from Whistler was part of the picture. Also someone wants to kill him for a lot of season nine because of it. Seriously Angel and Faith season nine is awesome.
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,021
Age
48
I don't care how canon Joss says they are. They're simply incompatible with the show, and to accept the comics then I have to reject too much in the show.
As someone who once thought as you do I understand but you can uncannonise them for yourself you can't force anyone else to accept that.
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
Agreed, just as no one can make them canon to me. I was speaking for me, not making demands on anyone else.

Ethan Reigns

Scooby
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
6,418
Location
Canada
Sineya
The only thing the comics are a continuation of is the dance of capitalist superiority as portrayed by Dawn and Anya in the Magic Box. The ability to make money without caring about how it is done is a feature of both.
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,021
Age
48
The only thing the comics are a continuation of is the dance of capitalist superiority as portrayed by Dawn and Anya in the Magic Box. The ability to make money without caring about how it is done is a feature of both.
That's your opinion and in mine is wrong. Also how much have you actually read of them? I'll argee with about the alt reality of the Boom ones though - utterly pointless unless you want to relieve the good ole days.
 

Priceless

Scooby
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
6,392
Location
UK
I loved the comics, the IDW Angel ones and the Dark Horse ones. I loved how they continued the story of the scoobies and took the gang in new directions. Some arc I didn't appreciate or perhaps understand, but some I absolutely adored, and I'm glad we have them. Saying that, I completely understand they're not everyone's cup of tea.

The Boom comics . . . I just don't know. I like some and some I just don't understand and it feels nothing has been adequately explained well enough. I am left with a ton of questions after every issue, and very few answers. I keep telling myself that if I stick with them, it will all become clear 😟
 
K
katmobile
I agree with you about Dark Horse comics. The Boom ones I just can't be arsed with its an AU and I'm not fond of those unless it's something like the Wishverse explained in the proper canon.

TriBel

Scooby
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
1,468
Location
Manchester
I like the comics.* IMO, most of what happens can, in hindsight, be inferred from the TV series (including Twilight). I even liked being challenged by A11 and the Giles mini. The only one I have issues with is S12. I'm happy for them to be canon until Joss changes his mind. Boom - I can take or leave...it doesn't impinge on my enjoyment/understanding of the original.
 

Ethan Reigns

Scooby
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
6,418
Location
Canada
Sineya
I have read Season 8 and After the Fall and I thought Season 8 was a little better than the general consensus and After the Fall was not as good as the general consensus. The first time I saw a Buffy comic (in a window display in an HMV store that has since closed), I couldn't tell Buffy from Willow, the drawing was so bad. I still think the main impetus behind the comics was that there was a market waiting to be filled and getting it out there fast was more important than getting it right.
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
881
Age
38
Considering how awful Angel was in the comics and what a mess the whole Twilight arc was, I think I prefer JM's position that they went down swinging in that Ally
 
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