Angel The Alpha Male Yes Or No

[thetopher]

What? Angel never cared about anyone?

It's simple, see some people think that Angel only does good things because of his ego. It's not really about helping those that need it, its about Angel satisfying his need to control everything and everyone.
Apparently Angel the show was about a megalomaniac control freak but most of us missed that and mistook it for a show about a guy trying to do good.

To paraphrase Angel himself 'if nothing you do matters, then the only thing that matters is the things I do to and for you. And you're welcome by the way.' *Angel sweeps off into the night*.

 

[RomanticSoul]

It's simple, see some people think that Angel only does good things because of his ego. It's not really about helping those that need it, its about Angel satisfying his need to control everything and everyone.
Apparently Angel the show was about a megalomaniac control freak but most of us missed that and mistook it for a show about a guy trying to do good.

To paraphrase Angel himself 'if nothing you do matters, then the only thing that matters is the things I do to and for you. And you're welcome by the way.' *Angel sweeps off into the night*.

Ah. So basically some people have only seen the Jersey Shore version of AtS or something like that instead of the one that actually aired on TV and then released on DVD and such? Makes more sense now.

 

[white avenger]

It's simple, see some people think that Angel only does good things because of his ego

Apparently not so simple for some to realize that Angel can actually want to do good and rescue/save/protect/defend people and still retain the alpha male personality. The alpha male is the natural leader. He takes responsibility for those who he sees as being under his protection, even to the point of sacrificing himself to save his charges.

Saying that Angel is a typical alpha male isn't in any way derogatory. The same thing can be said for just about any hero, from Beowulf to John Wayne. That puts Ol' Broody in some pretty good company, I would think.

 

[thetopher]

Apparently not so simple for some to realize that Angel can actually want to do good and rescue/save/protect/defend people and still retain the alpha male personality.

We just have different definitions of what an alpha male personality is I guess. Alpha males- to me- have several certain qualities about HOW they act whilst in charge, which don't apply to Angel.

The alpha male is the natural leader.

Who apparently ALWAYS has to be in charge and can never be a subordinate. Basically not Angel.

Saying that Angel is a typical alpha male isn't in any way derogatory.

This is the original post that I took issue with, that led to this 'defining' Angel as an alpha male thread.

Angel doesn't assist other people in doing things, he does things for them. The difference is, Angel has to be the one in charge, the one making all the decisions. He excuses it by saying that he is acting for the greater good, or that what he is doing is in someone else's best interest, but, whatever he does, it is entirely on his own initiative, with him having the final word. Even with Buffy, he often did things behind her back or made decisions affecting her, without asking or consulting her ("I Will Remember You") Angel can be a leader, or he can be an equal partner (but only the "equal" partner who ultimately has the final say in the matter) but he can never be the assistant, the helper, or in any way subordinate, to another . His ego just won't allow it. It's probably the single greatest difference between him and Spike, other than that "dull as a table lamp" thing.

I would call that pretty derogatory to be honest, and also highly inaccurate.
Which is why I kept on giving examples to 1) show that Angel works fine with others and 2) Buffy is more alpha that Angel will ever be but she- for some odd reason- never gets called out for it.

 

[white avenger]

I would call that pretty derogatory

Derogatory only in the sense that his character dynamic, his self assurance, and his tendency to be the natural leader in almost every situation sometimes leads to Angel making decisions that seem uncaring, or even sometimes downright cruel, when viewed by others. There might have been alternatives to some of his actions. For instance, he might have tried to find some sort of alternative to giving up his humanity in Season 1 that would have not put Buffy in any danger, or he might have tried to find another way to help Connor in Season 4, but he didn't. He acted immediately, whether or not we we might judge too hastily, to correct a situation that he honestly saw as immediate and imperative. He did the best that he could in order to help those that he loved, rather than put them in danger. In both of those cases, his honestly felt that their gain outweighed his loss, that the greater good was served, and he truly hoped that the only resulting pain would be his to feel.

I may criticize Angel for the way that he took that happiness away from Buffy, and some might call what he had W&H do to his friends mind rape when he helped Connor, but neither I nor anyone else can truthfully say that his actions were out of malice or simply the need to stroke his own ego.

Beowulf made the decision to kill Grendel's son, not because he was trying to show the world how big and strong he was. He already KNEW how big and strong he was. He wasn't trying to prove anything. He was simply doing what had to be done, and what he knew that no one else was capable of doing. We don't accuse him of being on an ego trip simply because he didn't assess the situation and then decide to send a letter to Hercules, asking for help (different time lines, different mythology, I know) we applaud his bravery. We don't condemn him because his actions resulted in Grendel doing more damage out of revenge than her son ever did.

Angel makes the decisions that he makes, and acts the way that he does, not to prove that he's the biggest and baddest Big Bad on the block, but because he IS all that, and more, and he knows it. He doesn't do what he does so that people will see him as a hero, he does it because he IS a hero.

That's why he's an alpha male.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

To paraphrase Angel himself 'if nothing you do matters, then the only thing that matters is the things I do to and for you. And you're welcome by the way.' *Angel sweeps off into the night*.

lol

Angel makes the decisions that he makes, and acts the way that he does, not to prove that he's the biggest and baddest Big Bad on the block, but because he IS all that, and more, and he knows it. He doesn't do what he does so that people will see him as a hero, he does it because he IS a hero.

That's why he's an alpha male.

Kind of like he'd rather people hate him and live rather than like him and die?

 

[bespangeled]

What? Angel never cared about anyone? Can you give me your alternate versions of BtVS and AtS then please? So I can judge the Angel in your versions.

He never cared about anyone until he met Buffy - n fact he even tells her that. The closest he came was the Hyperion when he tried to help judy. But when the people under the influence of a paranoia demon became paranoid he walked out and gave them to the demon. He did spend time in the early days of Vegas, went to Elvis's wedding, hung out with the Rat Pack and got close enough that Sammy Davis Jr took his advice - a lot of things happened after he was souled but before he met Buffy. But until he met her, he didn't care.

For some reason people like to view him as fighting for good for a century - but not only does that not fit into his history, if it were true then there would be no dramatic reason to even meet Buffy.

When is the last time you watched the early Seasons of BtVS? Angel usually followed Buffy's plan. The only time Angel really went his own way was in the wake of Alan Finch's death when he did his own investigation to piece together what happened. And it usually was Buffy/Giles' plan that was in place (or the whole Scoobie Gang's) and which he followed. Whether that's during Zeppo, Enemies or Graduation Day. Or all the other times where he carried out or helped with the plan the others came up with.

Angel was usually helping Buffy or Giles plan - he knew what was going on. Early on he was there more as a mysterious love interest. In season 2, he led the group in discovering Ford's plan even though it meant lying to Buffy. Buffy rescued him from Spike, and shortly after he was Angelus. In season three he joined with Buffy to defeat the Mayor - but he was in on planning all of it. I'm not saying he didn't help, or didn't work well with a group - I'm say he was never subservient. Spike could actually do a great subservient - prepared to obey others unquestioningly. That wasn't really part of Angel's make-up.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Spike could actually do a great subservient - prepared to obey others unquestioningly. That wasn't really part of Angel's make-up.

I don't think Spike was subservient in general, just that he would do anything for the woman he loved whether it be Drusilla or Buffy. Drusilla just let him take the lead, although when he wanted to kill Ford she didn't let him.

 

[GoSpuffy]

Yes to angel being an alpha male. And Buffy is an alpha female. Spike is often an alpha male but is also comfortable being second in command, he's flexible that way. One of the kajillion things I love about him. Alpha Is not an insult, it's a compliment. It just means "leader of the pack".

 

[white avenger]

I'm say (Angel) was never subservient. Spike could actually do a great subservient - prepared to obey others unquestioningly. That wasn't really part of Angel's make-up.

Spike could be a leader if it were required, though he wasn't opposed to having someone else in charge. The difference between him and Angel, I think, is that being a leader was something that Spike could do, whereas being a leader was just something that Angel was, naturally.

 

[thetopher]

Derogatory only in the sense that his character dynamic, his self assurance, and his tendency to be the natural leader in almost every situation sometimes leads to Angel making decisions that seem uncaring, or even sometimes downright cruel, when viewed by others.

No, only derogatory in the sense that you're casting his motivations in a completely different light other than what is shown. I've given examples where Angel has helped- ALONG with other people, simply because it is right, nothing in it for him, no example to lord it over others and be the boss.
I mean, to me I think Angle helps save the world because he doesn't want people to suffer and he can help, not because he resents others trying to change the world without his permission.

Maybe there's the whole wanting to help because he's super-guilty but what you have said is that 'Angel has to be the one in charge, and excuses it by saying its for the greater good, but actually it's 'cause its only what he wants.'

That's not actually being an alpha male. That's just being a huge jack-ass.

I may criticize Angel for the way that he took that happiness away from Buffy, and some might call what he had W&H do to his friends mind rape when he helped Connor, but neither I nor anyone else can truthfully say that his actions were out of malice or simply the need to stroke his own ego.

1) Angel didn't take anything away from Buffy, the Oracles did. They saw the future and told Angel that armies would come and the slayer would die sooner than most. Angel- thinking he was nothing more than a liability as a human, initially wanted to be made a vampire again- NOT to take anything away from Buffy (although he probably thought things would go back to to how they were, gypsy curse et all). The Oracles give him the only option- this or she dies (along with anybody else).
Again, you can say you don't like it, or (as I do a bit) find it a rather trite and hackneyed plot device, but to basically sneer and say 'eh, well look Angel couldn't stand being a side-kick so he took Buffy's happy away' is just twisting the facts to fit a certain narrative.

2) Mind-rape is not a thing. It doesn't exist. Otherwise we have to come up with various different kinds of 'rape' that don't involve actual sexual assault. Like 'mind-rape', 'soul-rape' and others, just to clarify things.

4) You've already made your position on Angel's motivations perfectly clear and now you seem to be wanting to backtrack. You've said (and some others clearly agree) his ego is all that matters and it is the final arbiter.
To me that's pretty simplistic pov since it negates Angel's incredibly negative view of himself and his past actions and how he struggles with them.
 
Oh yeah:
3) It's funny how the two points you give seem to be Angel screwing himself over to give the person he loves the most a second chance at life. It doesn't actually scream ego to me, or that the only opinion that truly matters is his own. With Buffy Angel made the 'mistake' of believing the connection to the higher powers who 'know all' or whatever. With Connor it was more guilt at not being able to do more, be better. Feeling that Connor's life had been ruined because Angel hadn't been good enough. Connor even says that at the end- 'you didn't do enough to save me' he tells Angel.
So Angel tells Connor he's sorry, and that he loves him, and then- because that's what Connor wanted/expected- Angel does 'enough' to save Connor the second time around. He did whatever it took.
I mean truly, what a bastard.

 

[white avenger]

Before this more or less friendly discussion deteriorates any further into another pointless argument and exchange of personal insults, I am going to leave the subject to those with lower blood pressure. I'm simply too old and tired to participate in this kind of crap anymore over something as insignificant as the imagined character traits of a fictional character. For those mature enough to understand, please accept my apologies for starting a thread on what I hoped would have been an interesting topic.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Before this more or less friendly discussion deteriorates any further into another pointless argument and exchange of personal insults, I am going to leave the subject to those with lower blood pressure. I'm simply too old and tired to participate in this kind of crap anymore over something as insignificant as the imagined character traits of a fictional character. For those mature enough to understand, please accept my apologies for starting a thread on what I hoped would have been an interesting topic.

It is an interesting topic especially in regards to vampire hierarchy. We've seen plenty of male Alphas: The Master, Angelus, Season 2 Spike. But we've also seen some Alpha females: Sunday, Harmony (because she briefly was leader of the little group of vampires in season 5), you could also argue that both Darla and Drusilla were alpha females (even though they allowed Angelus and Spike to take the lead respectively, there were occasions when Angelus and Spike obeyed them).

My question would be: Are vampires in general a patriarchal bunch with a few anomalies (Spike following Buffy's orders, Sunday leading her own gang) or is it entirely up to the individual and when they were turned has bearing on their attitudes to women eg Sunday was turned in the 80s when women were seen as more equal so there's no reason why she shouldn't be in charge whereas Angelus was turned in the 1700s when women were expected to obey men?

 

[thetopher]

I'm simply too old and tired to participate in this kind of crap anymore over something as insignificant as the imagined character traits of a fictional character. For those mature enough to understand, please accept my apologies for starting a thread on what I hoped would have been an interesting topic.

Huh, here I though we were simply having a= somewhat frank- exchange of views. There was no heat, or name-calling that I can see.

But if you want to claim some imaginary moral high ground rather than admit the mere possibility that you could be wrong then whatever. Bye, I guess.

It is an interesting topic especially in regards to vampire hierarchy. We've seen plenty of male Alphas: The Master, Angelus, Season 2 Spike. But we've also seen some Alpha females: Sunday, Harmony (because she briefly was leader of the little group of vampires in season 5), you could also argue that both Darla and Drusilla were alpha females (even though they allowed Angelus and Spike to take the lead respectively, there were occasions when Angelus and Spike obeyed them).

I always figured Darla could wrap Angelus around her finger IF she wanted but I got the impression she really liked Angelus' 'take-charge' shows of strength; both because she was her 'childe' and her mate.
With Drusilla she could reign Spike in when he seemed to maybe get too impetuous but usually seemed content to have him lead- definitely more of partnership there.

My question would be: Are vampires in general a patriarchal bunch with a few anomalies (Spike following Buffy's orders, Sunday leading her own gang) or is it entirely up to the individual and when they were turned has bearing on their attitudes to women eg Sunday was turned in the 80s when women were seen as more equal so there's no reason why she shouldn't be in charge whereas Angelus was turned in the 1700s when women were expected to obey men?

Maybe simple age has something to do with it? Even Harmony got to be the leader by virtue of being the eldest of her gang- although that didn't last long since Mort looked like he was about to take over.

But age and some force of personality I suppose; a combination of the two. Vampiric potency and strength of ambition to lord it over other vamps.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Maybe simple age has something to do with it? Even Harmony got to be the leader by virtue of being the eldest of her gang- although that didn't last long since Mort looked like he was about to take over.

But age and some force of personality I suppose; a combination of the two. Vampiric potency and strength of ambition to lord it over other vamps.

Vampires do supposedly get stronger with age which is why the leaders are normally the oldest. However, in Harmony's case she wasn't a vampire long so I kind of doubt that her being the oldest really gave her much of an advantage over the others. As you say Mort was about to take over. Also the Annointed one wasn't a vampire long but was still respected right up to the point where Spike came in and got rid of him.

I think force of personality could be the defining factor in what makes a leader. A weak personality is easily going to get dominated by a stronger personality however strength does play a part as well eg Angelus coming in and taking over whilst Spike was wheelchair bound yet Spike beat the crap out of Angelus in Becoming part 2 until Dru tackled him. Even then, Spike overcame her but she still put up a good fight.

What's interesting in the season 2 dynamic between Angelus, Drusilla and Spike is that, even though Angelus comes in and takes over leadership from Spike and adds salt to the wound by sleeping with Dru, Dru still holds a great deal of affection for Spike even in his lower position. She makes excuses for him "You'll have to excuse Spike, he's a little testy tonight", she invites him along on hunting trips "want to come, pet" which Angelus then denies, Angelus even says she gives Spike"pity access". Is Dru only sleeping with Angelus and following him because she's obligated to with him as leader and that's what he wants her to do? Being the leader's partner would certainly have it's advantages.

Is vampire hierarchy about constantly jostling for position? If the males compete to be the alpha, do the females compete to be the alpha's preferred woman? If the alpha is female, do the males compete to be the preferred partner? Brad was getting Harmony unicorn figures, leading the others to call him "sire whipped", perhaps Brad had ulterior motives rather than just getting Harmony something because she sired him?

 

[RomanticSoul]

I think force of personality could be the defining factor in what makes a leader. A weak personality is easily going to get dominated by a stronger personality however strength does play a part as well eg Angelus coming in and taking over whilst Spike was wheelchair bound yet Spike beat the crap out of Angelus in Becoming part 2 until Dru tackled him.

Spike attacked Angelus from behind and wailed on him with a crowbar. That says nothing about anything other than Spike didn't have the balls to do that while facing Angelus. Which is pretty much why he's been sitting stewing in his wheelchair for episodes. Only reason he even does it there is because he knows the brunt of any fight with Angelus in that situation would be taken on by Buffy.

What's interesting in the season 2 dynamic between Angelus, Drusilla and Spike is that, even though Angelus comes in and takes over leadership from Spike and adds salt to the wound by sleeping with Dru, Dru still holds a great deal of affection for Spike even in his lower position. She makes excuses for him "You'll have to excuse Spike, he's a little testy tonight", she invites him along on hunting trips "want to come, pet" which Angelus then denies, Angelus even says she gives Spike"pity access".

Because Dru enjoys the hell out of the attention. The 2 vamps show her attention and even fight over her (or so she thinks) at least one time we saw. And she loves it.

Is Dru only sleeping with Angelus and following him because she's obligated to with him as leader and that's what he wants her to do? Being the leader's partner would certainly have it's advantages.

The reason is rather simple. Dru prefers 'daddy'. If you were to put Angelus and Spike next to each other and ask Dru to chose, she would always chose 'daddy'. She would only chose Spike if 'daddy' were gone or instead of Angelus Angel would be standing there.

 

[GoSpuffy]

The reason is rather simple. Dru prefers 'daddy'. If you were to put Angelus and Spike next to each other and ask Dru to chose, she would always chose 'daddy'. She would only chose Spike if 'daddy' were gone or instead of Angelus Angel would be standing there.

I agree. I've always thought that this showcases how sometimes children will often try hardest to please the parent that hurts them. Its really twisted but I guess it falls into the keep your friends close and your enemies closer school of thought. Or maybe Stockholm Syndrome?

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I agree. I've always thought that this showcases how sometimes children will often try hardest to please the parent that hurts them. Its really twisted but I guess it falls into the keep your friends close and your enemies closer school of thought. Or maybe Stockholm Syndrome?

I would say it falls into the keep them happy so they don't hurt you kind of thing.

Spike attacked Angelus from behind and wailed on him with a crowbar. That says nothing about anything other than Spike didn't have the balls to do that while facing Angelus. Which is pretty much why he's been sitting stewing in his wheelchair for episodes. Only reason he even does it there is because he knows the brunt of any fight with Angelus in that situation would be taken on by Buffy.

I disagree. Spike is in that wheelchair in at least 6 episodes. We first see him in it in "Surprise" and we see him step out of it in "I only have eyes for you". Add in the fact he was injured at the end of "What's my line part 2" and there was a 2 episode gap between that and "Surprise", it's fair to say that Spike was genuinely injured and required the chair for a while. Spike couldn't attack Angelus solo, not because he "didn't have the balls", but merely because he would also have Drusilla to contend with, which he did. Spike used his brain and made an alliance because he wanted Drusilla safe. He got his own back on Angelus with the crowbar whilst Buffy was distracted with the henchvampire, but Drusilla tackled him to the ground and his attention was taken up fighting her and she put up a good fight. Once he had her, he exited. Spike is rash but he's not stupid.

Because Dru enjoys the hell out of the attention. The 2 vamps show her attention and even fight over her (or so she thinks) at least one time we saw. And she loves it.

Yes Dru enjoys the attention, but she also continues with Spike even though he is technically in a lower position now since Angelus usurped him as leader. In most pack animals eg lions and gorillas, the alpha male is the only one that gets access to the females. The fact that Drusilla is doing both of them suggests that her affection lies with Spike but vampire hierarchy dictates that she has to make herself available to the alpha male which in this case is Angelus. In flashbacks, Angelus tells Spike if he wants Drusilla he has to fight for her (aka assert his dominance), whilst in present day he is mocking Spike for being unable to fight for her and is rubbing it in his face. Going by Angelus' advice to Spike in flashback that if you want something, you just take it, it's unlikely that Angelus would've allowed Drusilla to refuse. He wanted to wind Spike up, sleeping with Drusilla was the way to do that, so he was going to sleep with her whether she wanted it or not. At best, she just went with the flow. Angelus/Drusilla's dynamic is very complex.

The reason is rather simple. Dru prefers 'daddy'. If you were to put Angelus and Spike next to each other and ask Dru to chose, she would always chose 'daddy'. She would only chose Spike if 'daddy' were gone or instead of Angelus Angel would be standing there.

See above. Also during the boxer rebellion Spike and Dru thought Angel was still Angelus and she was all over Spike there.

 

[thetopher]

Spike attacked Angelus from behind and wailed on him with a crowbar. That says nothing about anything other than Spike didn't have the balls to do that while facing Angelus. Which is pretty much why he's been sitting stewing in his wheelchair for episodes.

Well, I think any other vampire would've done the same in that position; Angelus and Darla are both far more backstab-y than Spike.
Spike is actually particularly ballsy for a vampire, going up against slayers and all.
I think his hitting Angelus from behind wasn't an 'I can't take him in a fight' more a 'I want to wail on you for taunting me for the last couple of months' it was more anger than fear.
Also tactically it made sense; surprise against greater numbers so you take out the leader.

The reason is rather simple. Dru prefers 'daddy'. If you were to put Angelus and Spike next to each other and ask Dru to chose, she would always chose 'daddy'.

I think they offer very different things to Dru- Angelus made her what she is and she in turn made Spike- who loves her for who she is; she has twisted feelings for both, so in her mind why not be with both? She's beautiful, crazy and evil and they both want her because she's the only one around for once- no Darla.
She enjoyed all the attention but I think its hard to say which she'd choose outright.

Also during the boxer rebellion Spike and Dru thought Angel was still Angelus and she was all over Spike there.

See S5 'Destiny'- which is before the Boxer Rebellion. Dru was content to have sex with Angelus as well, much to Spike's displeasure.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Well, I think any other vampire would've done the same in that position; Angelus and Darla are both far more backstab-y than Spike.
Spike is actually particularly ballsy for a vampire, going up against slayers and all.
I think his hitting Angelus from behind wasn't an 'I can't take him in a fight' more a 'I want to wail on you for taunting me for the last couple of months' it was more anger than fear.
Also tactically it made sense; surprise against greater numbers so you take out the leader.

This is really well put. 😀

I think they offer very different things to Dru- Angelus made her what she is and she in turn made Spike- who loves her for who she is; she has twisted feelings for both, so in her mind why not be with both? She's beautiful, crazy and evil and they both want her because she's the only one around for once- no Darla.
She enjoyed all the attention but I think its hard to say which she'd choose outright.

I agree, though I'd hope she'd choose Spike because of everything he did to help her and he's been taking care of her for a while.

See S5 'Destiny'- which is before the Boxer Rebellion. Dru was content to have sex with Angelus as well, much to Spike's displeasure.

Spike was new then though so Angelus was kind of the default since that had probably been happening for years.