Angel : Unpopular Opinions

[DeepBlueJoy]

IWRY is one of my least favourite Bangel episodes.

Angel was a dumbass in Sanctuary.

Fred and Gunn had so much more potential than Fred and Wes. It felt as though the writers were thinking, 'The educated white people are obviously meant for each other, even though they have no chemistry and their educations lie in completely opposite fields, but for some reason Wesley can read Fred's articles on experimental physics and compliment her and make Gunn uncomfortable and it makes absolutely no sense and we are all stupid and we should quit our jobs, because we are probably racist and classist and other things.'

Really love what you wrote about Gunn and Fred. Wes and Fred was just ridiculous. She was not emotionally someone who would want that much darkness. Wes, especially by that last year, was a dreary man with no sense of humor. Gunn and Fred made each other laugh, and worked fabulously together (that summer it was only them, it was very clear just how well they functioned and negotiated through whatever they faced). I am glad i'm not the only one that thinks that trying to squish Fred/Wes together was idiotic.

Frankly, the fact that both Gunn and Fred were from blue collar backgrounds actually gave them MORE commonalities than Fred and Wes could ever have. Gunn wasn't remotely stupid, and Fred was never a snob, and neither were her folks (who I still adore - best parents in the buffyverse, IMO) I hate that the writers contrived that situation to destroy the relationship with Fred and Gunn... Then, of course, they couldn't find a way to put Wes and Fred together, because they really didn't fit.

Wes had obsessive, unrequited feelings for Fred, who didn't want him when he was 'obviously' the 'better' pick - why would she change her mind? Wes would have done anything for Fred, even things he shouldn't. There was nothing healthy about his behavior toward her. He tried to use his power to jealously break things up when Gunn and Fred were getting together, instead of being glad she was happy. IMO, if he really could read her physics article, it was only because he went and studied physics 'for her', so he could impress her. They were never the OTP, some people (including the later writers, apparently) seemed to want. "Put the pretty white woman in her proper place with a good (white) match, even if they don't really 'fit'." At least that's what I see.

Post automatically merged: Apr 12, 2018

This isn't about Angel specifically, but every timr I see someone combine two names into a portmanteau to indicate a relationship, whether talking about fictional characters or real life celebrities, I die a little inside. When people say stuff like "Bangel" or "Spuffy" or "Brangelina" I pretty much permanently write them off as an awful person. Shippers are the worst part of any fandom. They have basically destroyed the online Arrowverse community (Flash, Arrow, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow, etc).

Shipping is something that mostly seems to exist to cause issues. Portmanteau relationship names are kind of dorky, but it's the fierceness of the affiliations that gets to me. I would not mind ships so much, if they didn't generate hostility and create cliques that run off people from places where they might otherwise find commonality within a fandom. I may like X, but liking X and being in a rage because of Y doesn't make sense to me. The armed camp mentality that seems to develop around ships is kind of crazy. It's a TV show (or in real life, it's OTHER people's lives). It's an outside issue to me and mine, therefore, I don't think it's worth fighting about.

Post automatically merged: Apr 12, 2018

Yes, I know it is ironic that I was defending a ship, then having difficulty with shipping... I reserve the right to have two opinions even if they seem to be somewhat in conflict... 😵🙄😎

 

[famicommander]

Hi! Awful person here (Bangel fan),

Be prepared to die a lot on these boards as those terms are often used. But I have to say, this notion that shippers and shipping are inferior or a blemish in fandom is a concept I will never understand. Not all shippers are created equal. Not everyone who ships is a pod person that is unable to engage in dialogue and critical analysis of that art. Shipping can mean that there is a love story component to the art in question that the fan enjoys or perhaps there are certain attributes of two characters they find compatible. Shipping is natural as in our real lives we also often deal in human connection, love, relationships etc. It is therefore, perfectly natural for fans invested in a show to have opinions about their favorite characters’ relationships because we relate art to real life.

Anyway I have a lot to say about this and I’ve been meaning to write a meta on it maybe I will soon but I feel that the whole shippers are a cancer to fandom opinion is a bit short sighted.

Go to any place that discusses the DC television shows (Twitter, forums, instagram, etc) and say the words "Iris West" or "Felicity Smoak" and you'll know what I'm talking about.

I don't care how or why other people enjoy the shows I do, nor do I care that others watch specifically for the relationships. But these people tend to view every single event that happens in any of these shows through the lens of what ever "ship" they're obsessed with. Consequently they go on emotional rants and derail every discussion even when they have nothing to do with any relationship. If anything at all that they don't agree with happens to one of their characters they take it as a personal attack by the show creators and then lash out at the community at large.

It drives away normal, reasonable fans that just want to discuss the shows with like-minded individuals. It gives people outside the fandom the wrong impression about the rest of us, as the illogical and emotional among us tend to be the loudest.

As for the name thing, it's just annoying. Not sure if I can explain why exactly, but it just comes across as stupid.

 

[badsister]

Go to any place that discusses the DC television shows (Twitter, forums, instagram, etc) and say the words "Iris West" or "Felicity Smoak" and you'll know what I'm talking about.

yeah. but we're not there are we.

I don't care how or why other people enjoy the shows I do

that's the problem

but I think all people have the right to enjoy the shows how they want. and they have the right to be loud about their opinions. and most of the time these ships are great big of deal, cause after all all the great things have been done in the name of love(any kind of love really). ok yes these shows aren't all soapy drama but still. human relationships and interactions are important in terms of character study and yeah some folks take it pretty srsly, but i honestly admire people who are so passionate about something. i mean go big or go home right. but i get what you mean, that happens in every fandom, ship wars are ridiculous but well you just have to ignore it. but well in Buffyverse ships are important and we go down with them.

 

[EarthLogic]

badsister i ship illyria and petri dish(even after all these years)

HA! 😀 I forgot about that! Totally with you there.

Post automatically merged: Apr 12, 2018

But these people tend to view every single event that happens in any of these shows through the lens of what ever "ship" they're obsessed with. Consequently they go on emotional rants and derail every discussion even when they have nothing to do with any relationship. If anything at all that they don't agree with happens to one of their characters they take it as a personal attack by the show creators and then lash out at the community at large.

I agree that shipping can get toxic and when people start verbally abusing each other or the creative team, or start making things personal, it's just awful and can make it really difficult for others in the fandom. The ship wars (I'm with you on the portmanteau names btw - I don't like it much either but now just use them for the sake of convenience) that took place suring Buffy S6 pretty much broke the fandom and I'm sure old veteran fans will tell you that it has never really recovered. However ships have also dictated some of the key story arcs of the show so I don't see how you can disregard them completely. Angel only became a regular character because viewers liked the chemistry between the two actors and characters (and given how much the fallout from their story affected each character, not to mention the mythology of the show - i.e. soul canon, this ship is arguably the cornerstone of the 'verse). Spike/Buffy was also developed by the writers in response to the positive fan reaction to 'Something Blue'.

So I think it's impossible to ignore relationship drama completely, especially since it informed so much of our characters' stories. Yes, shipping has some pretty negative side-effects and creates some real crazies, but it also helped shape the show.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

@famicommander Maybe you're the weird one, as you watch shows that depend on emotional investment in the relationships between the characters and think people who watch the shows as intended are 'awful.'

 

[thrasherpix]

Go to any place that discusses the DC television shows (Twitter, forums, instagram, etc) and say the words "Iris West" or "Felicity Smoak" and you'll know what I'm talking about.

I don't care how or why other people enjoy the shows I do, nor do I care that others watch specifically for the relationships. But these people tend to view every single event that happens in any of these shows through the lens of what ever "ship" they're obsessed with. Consequently they go on emotional rants and derail every discussion even when they have nothing to do with any relationship. If anything at all that they don't agree with happens to one of their characters they take it as a personal attack by the show creators and then lash out at the community at large.

It drives away normal, reasonable fans that just want to discuss the shows with like-minded individuals. It gives people outside the fandom the wrong impression about the rest of us, as the illogical and emotional among us tend to be the loudest.

As for the name thing, it's just annoying. Not sure if I can explain why exactly, but it just comes across as stupid.

I left the Buffy fandom several years ago (early to mid-2000s) because it was primarily vicious shipping wars, and it was beyond their ability to comprehend that not everyone was into shipping so they'd assume I was in a rival ship which was annoying (I usually shrug when people disagree with me, sometimes I can even slowly be convinced to change my views, but it riles me up when people put words in my mouth or make wild assumptions about my intent and meaning, including that I'm a different type of shipper just because I said something that isn't completely favorable of their own personal ship).

When I think those who go too far with it, I think of the women in Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered, only it's over their chosen ship (and men can be just as bad).

I find it in tolerable levels now. And when I left over the shipping wars before it was mostly out of a feeling of futility. I did not share their interests, had no horse in their race (and they did all they could to race through any active threads), and so could not connect, and in the words of evil Willow: "Bored now." Shipping is still powerful but not anywhere as bad as it used to be, at least not on BB (and I'm glad they have subforums devoted to that to help ease up pressure elsewhere)

Mild or moderate shipping is fine, though I wish if we must endure the hardcore, obsessed shippers that at least someone would study them as I'm morbidly curious why something so trivial becomes so primal to their ego and personal identity, as surely it's interesting (and might give insights into other bizarre obsessions). Heck, maybe it is normal. It's what so many obsess over in school (which many people never outgrow, and I couldn't help but notice recently how many thread discussions would be what many in school would be talking about over other kids, like what they're wearing and their behavior in addition to who's crushing on or banging whom). It's all over the gossip magazines, and even many supposedly respectable news organizations will do more thorough reporting on some celebrity's relationship (or even POSSIBLE relationship) than anything actually important.

But I can't stay in any fandom which the shipping wars dominate it, which unfortunately is most of them. Last night I got into a surreal state of mind (staying up too late) and posted my speculations on the next season of RWBY on a YT vid without many views and then felt compelled to do damage control because I dared speculate on a possible ship that I think the writers are gearing up to (that has no interest to me, it was just an observation) as I knew it was like waving a red flag at a bunch of bulls that would reduce many into male chest beating gorillas roaring out their ship name and then fling metaphoric poo at each other (and me), and I'd have never dared post it on an actual message board out of fear of the roaring shipper mobs ready for the next pointless and stupid battle for the glory of their ship (and burying the actual topic in the process). But come to think of it, despite my confidence that it was safe to post there without inciting mayhem I should brace myself to see if it got any replies...😱

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Mild or moderate shipping is fine, though I wish if we must endure the hardcore, obsessed shippers that at least someone would study them as I'm morbidly curious why something so trivial becomes so primal to their ego and personal identity, as surely it's interesting (and might give insights into other bizarre obsessions).

I'll make a point to donate my brain to science so that you all may be enlightened.
I'm also obsessed with cat videos so that is likely to come up in my study. 🙂

 

[RachM]

When people say stuff like "Bangel" or "Spuffy" or "Brangelina" I pretty much permanently write them off as an awful person.

Wow, that's ... pretty harsh. I mean, is using portmanteau names really that bad? To write someone off as an awful person just cause they use a ship name is a bit of an overreaction.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

@badsister you too can donate your brain but only if obsessed with cat videos. K? 😉

 

[Antho]

I'm just saying something : Shipping can make a fandom corrosive (Hello TVD Fandom 😉) and some ship can waste a show (Hello Arrow 😉) but shipping is what make a show so much interesting because life itself is so much interesting when there is love !

 

[The Bronze]

When people say stuff like "Bangel" or "Spuffy" or "Brangelina" I pretty much permanently write them off as an awful person.

First off I have to admit to laughing out loud to this. I'm used to it now on here and it definitely is convenient at times but a part of me still can't stand the mashed up names.

Shippers are the worst part of any fandom.

Stupid people are the worst part of any fandom, that's not a trait exclusive to shippers. This place has been home to plenty of great debates featuring strong shippers, through to non shippers and everyone in the middle.

Consequently they go on emotional rants and derail every discussion even when they have nothing to do with any relationship.

Seems a little ironic to start a round of shipper bashing in a thread about unpopular Angel opinions whilst airing the complaint about shippers derailing the conversation.

 

[badsister]

also i have to join the people who don't understand wesley/fred thing. not much chemistry there. but at the same time i didn't see any with gunn...so idk
also i don't find connor as bad as most people do. he was...controversial. but there was some tragedy in him and how he's been used his whole life.
not a fan of IWRY not cause of the ship because bangel onelove. but it was so...soapy? idk maybe it's the writing. doesn't mean i didnt'cry but that's the thing...it was kinda predictable in a way.
s5 for me is the best. s2 and s5 are. (in terms of plot arcs and such)
gunn for me was disposable and again the way he was portrayed early in the series... joss really has some problems with stereotypes no?
idk if it's unpopular but there should have been more Groo!

 

[thetopher]

A few more:

- S3 ruined Cordelia's character, not S4. Her romance with Angel (and Groo) is harder to watch than Jasdelia. At least I know that Jasdelia isn't really her.

- Also S3 is really the weakest season; too light and soap-y which does not play to its strengths. It's a myth that AtS is darker than Buffy but it is a different show; more cinematic in scope and theme. The good stuff in 3 is too stretched out with filler.

- The only love interest I really believed in regards to Wesley was Lilah; he and Virginia didn't work and Fresley was darn thin in terms of shipping; not convincing.
- Slightly related; I'd probably ship Wesley/Faith if he were still alive.

- Angel's best love interest was not Cordy or Nina but Gwen! (because she was refreshingly different from his usual type).

- Lindsey was not remotely redeemable; S5 proved that. He had an out from the life but he trained for years and came back to revenge himself for pissy, petty reasons. 'I heard you sing' indeed; a fitting epitaph.

- Hellbound is Spike's best episode since 'Fool For Love'. Easily.

 

[SES SA]

I didn't care for Waiting in the Wings. I never liked the Wesley/Fred/Gunn triangle or Cangel, which is a not small part of the episode. Plus the "Angelus cries at Opera" joke fell flat with me.

 

[spikenbuffy]

I don't know if it is unpopular but i love Gwen

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I don't want to donate my brain to science. I want to donate it to iZombie so she can tell you all about my weird life.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Gwen is silly and she ruins the aesthetic of the show. None of the characters on Buffy wear capes, spandex, or leather fetish gear.

I have a soft spot for Kate. I wish they could have brought her back for a few guest appearances after she left the show.

The Girl in Question is a great episode and Buffy's tryst with the Immortal should never have been retconned.

The fact that Angel Investigations are so rarely shown to be friends hurt the show. The drama on BtVS is more engaging, because you are more invested in the different friendships.

Hellbound is Spike's best episode since 'Fool For Love'. Easily.

I was really disappointed by this episode when I rewatched, probably because my memory of it was fuzzy and I had somehow made myself remember that it was Amends à la Spike. I just found the episode weak. The ghosts weren't really Spike's victims and Spike was never in danger of being sucked into Hell. You could say saving Fred was in-character for Spike, but it still feels cheap. An episode such as this should make you question whether a vampire really deserves forgiveness. Amends, Are You Now or Have You Ever Been, Lies My Parents Told Me and Damaged all do a much better job of this, IMO.

My impression is that this episode is really popular, so this is one my unpopular opinions. Hellbound is weak-sauce.

 

[thetopher]

I was really disappointed by this episode when I rewatched, probably because my memory of it was fuzzy and I had somehow made myself remember that it was Amends à la Spike. I just found the episode weak. The ghosts weren't really Spike's victims and Spike was never in danger of being sucked into Hell.

Spike does question his his own worth because of where he thinks he's going, and he was in danger of being sent to hell in place of creepy ghost-guy.

Also creepy-ghost guy is awesome.

An episode such as this should make you question whether a vampire really deserves forgiveness.

Actually all the episode shows is that Spike has the potential to be heroic for its own sake. He gives up his 'one shot' to save the woman trying to save him.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Actually all the episode shows is that Spike has the potential to be heroic for its own sake. He gives up his 'one shot' to save the woman trying to save him.

But when the fear of Hell goes away, so does all the weight from that choice. Since there are hardly any stakes, it is hard to tell if this some more genuine altruism or just Spike's old martyr-complex. Once he gets his body back, he doesn't really know what to do with it.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Once he gets his body back, he doesn't really know what to do with it.

I think Harmony begs to differ.