Angel : Unpopular Opinions
- Thread starter Antho
- Start date
Carrie Hopewell
Little girl lost in the woods
Well, they are considerably better, so they kind of should be more popular. However, I literally just jumped into the conversation and have no idea of context. Don't come at me 😛
MarlieTheSlayer
Bangel shipper
I loved Gunn and Fred together. I really don't understand the Wesley and Fred relationship. Like why did Wesley get so obsessed with Fred in the first place? I also dislike the fact that Fred broke it off with Gunn, because he killed the evil professor, but after their break-up is finally interested in dark (emo) Wesley.
Gunn, as a character deserved better. It bothers me that overall the writers didn't know what to do with him. 🙄
Another unpopular opinion is my love for season 4. It's definitely not perfect, but I'm a sucker for grand scale story acts. I see S4 as one big movie. I'm actually studying abroad right now and ordered season 4 from Amazon, because I couldn't take my copy at home with me 😀
Gunn, as a character deserved better. It bothers me that overall the writers didn't know what to do with him. 🙄
Another unpopular opinion is my love for season 4. It's definitely not perfect, but I'm a sucker for grand scale story acts. I see S4 as one big movie. I'm actually studying abroad right now and ordered season 4 from Amazon, because I couldn't take my copy at home with me 😀
Ethan Reigns
Scooby
There are a number of "how long is this going to last?" episodes in Angel. The Pylea arc is one of them and the "Gee, I'm a dad" phase after Connor is born is another. Once you have gone through Angel the first time, the second rewatch is a lot better because you know they aren't going to last.
TotallySpiked
Haha I couldn’t agree more. I found Pylea completely awful and always skip it.
crazysoulless
Scooby
I hate Birthday.
That "What If" & "It's a Wonderful Life" theme has been used far better and more believable on BtVS, Doctor Who, Eureka, Hercules the Legendary Journeys, Supernatural, and Xena Warrior Princess.
I can't believe it took place the same year as Normal Again. Years later, fans still wonder, "Is the psych ward real or did she not take the antidote yet? Was she in an actual parallel universe?" It's all about Buffy's psyche. The one year anniversary of her mom's death and she's forced to hallucinate her. She's been mentally ill for a long time---feeling "wrong"----and then she's trapped in a psychiatric hospital with doctors telling her why she really feels that way. Her mom's impassioned speech to help her reject that fake superhero world inside her head ends up giving her the strength to go back to it. The way she kept fighting the psych universe even though it made more sense and the longer the venom was in her system the more adamant she got to protect the world she'd come to hate until finally breaking.
Birthday was like a checklist. Make Cordy look like the awesomest. Add in lots of Cangel, showing Angel can't even tie his shoes without Cordelia. Advance the "she's the biggest hero" arc so that next year it contrasts with the "she's the biggest villain" arc. And people still act as though choosing to upgrade with some unknown species was the right heroic call and not the thing that kills her. Skip was tricking her and it worked because she and the audience fell for the fakeness.
Compare Cordy finding Crazy Angel and rescuing him to The Wish, when Buffy found tortured Angel. She didn't swoop in like some goddess and single handedly fix everything. Alt Buffy lost everything and then came to Sunnydale and here's this man who remembers her from the last day she felt innocent & unburdened (the day in LA she found out monsters are real) and she didn't know if she can trust him so trusts his need for retribution. Her cross necklace alerting her he's a vampire was a great callback to WTTH when Angel gave her a cross necklace the night he introduced himself. I believed he could get to that helpless state because before Buffy, he wasn't a hero. He didn't begin that path until the moment he decided he wanted to become someone to help her. In City Of, Angel already had strength and started his new mission, tried to help Tina and took on Russel. When Alt Angel referred to Buffy as his "destiny" he meant it. He'd just spent 19 years on the streets feeding on rats and avoiding humanity then his whole life changed.
That "What If" & "It's a Wonderful Life" theme has been used far better and more believable on BtVS, Doctor Who, Eureka, Hercules the Legendary Journeys, Supernatural, and Xena Warrior Princess.
I can't believe it took place the same year as Normal Again. Years later, fans still wonder, "Is the psych ward real or did she not take the antidote yet? Was she in an actual parallel universe?" It's all about Buffy's psyche. The one year anniversary of her mom's death and she's forced to hallucinate her. She's been mentally ill for a long time---feeling "wrong"----and then she's trapped in a psychiatric hospital with doctors telling her why she really feels that way. Her mom's impassioned speech to help her reject that fake superhero world inside her head ends up giving her the strength to go back to it. The way she kept fighting the psych universe even though it made more sense and the longer the venom was in her system the more adamant she got to protect the world she'd come to hate until finally breaking.
Birthday was like a checklist. Make Cordy look like the awesomest. Add in lots of Cangel, showing Angel can't even tie his shoes without Cordelia. Advance the "she's the biggest hero" arc so that next year it contrasts with the "she's the biggest villain" arc. And people still act as though choosing to upgrade with some unknown species was the right heroic call and not the thing that kills her. Skip was tricking her and it worked because she and the audience fell for the fakeness.
Compare Cordy finding Crazy Angel and rescuing him to The Wish, when Buffy found tortured Angel. She didn't swoop in like some goddess and single handedly fix everything. Alt Buffy lost everything and then came to Sunnydale and here's this man who remembers her from the last day she felt innocent & unburdened (the day in LA she found out monsters are real) and she didn't know if she can trust him so trusts his need for retribution. Her cross necklace alerting her he's a vampire was a great callback to WTTH when Angel gave her a cross necklace the night he introduced himself. I believed he could get to that helpless state because before Buffy, he wasn't a hero. He didn't begin that path until the moment he decided he wanted to become someone to help her. In City Of, Angel already had strength and started his new mission, tried to help Tina and took on Russel. When Alt Angel referred to Buffy as his "destiny" he meant it. He'd just spent 19 years on the streets feeding on rats and avoiding humanity then his whole life changed.
Last edited:
I don't understand the big change everyone sees in Wesley. He moons over Fred for two seasons exactly the same way he mooned over Cordy in BtVS S3. He uses Lilah like a Sexbot, it's not a mature adult relationship in any way and it really surprises me when people name it as such. Wesley's change is all surface, he's the man who called The Watchers Council on Faith, the same man who believed his best friend would kill his own son, the same man who shot his own father and the same man who so easily believed Angle had something to do with Fred's death. He always had the maturity of a blueberry scone, he was always paranoid. I saw no real change in him at all.
Season 4 always makes me happy! It was a great Season and incredibly transformative for Angel, the character.
Well said! Angel already learned he was capable of accomplishing his mission alone. He doesn’t NEED Buffy or Cordy. He needs friends, though.
And I don’t understand Birthday. First, if Angel is not just part demon but full demon wouldn’t he be better equipped to handling the visions? Also you mean to tell me that if Wes and Gunn has seen slowly going mad with visions they wouldn’t have figured a way to transfer the visions to someone else or enlist the help of the Giles/Willow/Buffy to help with his condition?? I don’t believe for one second that if Buffy knew he was in LA going crazy she would be over there to help him.
Contrivances. Contrivances.
And I should add that I think Greenwalt was quoted as saying that it wasn’t the visions that made him crazy it was not having Cordy. Which is like 😕😕😕?
crazysoulless
Scooby
By Birthday, the Scoobies consisted of the greatest Slayer in history (Angel's ex girlfriend/lover), two witches (one who gave him back his soul), a 150 year old vampire (who traveled with Angelus for years and was sired by Drusilla), a 1,100 year old ex vengeance demon who used to be a spellcaster, a seasoned Watcher who used to be a spellcaster, and a girl who has an ancient ball of universe destroying pure energy inside her. But sure, what Angel really needs is the girl who just turned 21 and apart from the Doyle transferred visions was human---no freaky abilities or specialized paranormal knowledge---on a Xander level.
caitaintdead
caiters gonna cait
These are all the reasons that Wesley resonates with me. I see my insecurity reflected and the paranoia that you're not quite good enough. Wesley is incredibly flawed but nonetheless he just keeps on with his life living each day the best he can.
Priceless
I get that.
Fool for Buffy
I'm just being a big nerd again
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2017
- Messages
- 2,358
- Age
- 25
You're Welcome is my favorite episode even though I can't stand Cangel. Seems like everyone else is one or the other.
crazysoulless
Scooby
What do you like about it? Just that it shows Cordelia when she 1) doesn't have blonde hair 2) isn't dangling in the sky waiting to be rescued 3) doesn't have amnesia 4) isn't possessed 5) isn't being forced to seduce Connor
Angel didn't really get back on track. He just went from I-can-change-things-from-the-inside to I-can-destroy-things-from-the-inside. He didn't beat the bad guy since Lindsey wasn't any worse than Faith or Darla or Anya or Willow or Spike and they all got redemption arcs and he was rescued from the place he was sent and helped them in the final battle only to get murdered in cold blood by the good guys.
Last edited:
Antho
Scooby
crazysoulless
Scooby
Yes, but what is it about that episode that you like? All I ever here is "Cangel" and "Cordelia wasn't OOC anymore."
I enjoy You're Welcome but I'm definitely annoyed by some of the flaws that come after the episode, much like what @crazysoulless mentioned in their post above. What did Angel really take away from that?
Grace
Destructo-Girl
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2017
- Messages
- 1,792
I like You're Welcome, but I do find it deeply weird that what seemed to prompt Cordelia to come back was Angel deciding to quit Wolfram & Hart. My crackpot theory is that she was still evil. Also, if Lindsey's runes were supposed to protect him from "all-seeing eyes" or whatever, then how did she get a vision about them?
Also this dialogue:
CORDELIA
Boy, I really do fall for the dumb ones. You know how you're always trying to save, oh, every single person in the world? Did it ever occur to you you were one of them?
ANGEL
No, it never did.
So, the guy on the redemption quest never considered that it was at least partly about him? Are you kidding me?
*Flashback*
Doyle in City Of: It’s about letting them into your heart. It’s not about saving lives; it’s about saving souls. Hey, possibly your own in the process."
*End flashback*
And that actually is not the dumbest line in the episode. That pleasure is reserved for "I'm Angel. I beat the bad guys."
But I can set that aside and enjoy the episode, honestly. 🙂
crazysoulless
That's too much to set aside for me, especially ending in a Cangel makeout and Cordelia's "You're Welcome" for knowing me
Honestly I would have preferred he said "because I'm the Dark Avenger" it would have been an improvement.
Antho
Scooby
First of all you must know that for me Angel and Cordelia weren't OOC in season 3. I know some think Cordelia caring about Angel and only him was not in character but that something I actually don't buy, or don't care because I love the relationship between them. For me Angel's feeling don't appear suddenly, I saw things coming up since season 1. That's why the all theory about the Kyumption thing being the only element indicates there is LOVE between them is not something I agree with ! So, no OOC for me in season 3. And if we think that Cordelia isn't herself in season 4, there is no OOC at all.
That's part of why I love "You're Welcome" because Angel and Cordelia find what made the depth of their relationship and they got a wonderful ending. I don't think Angel learn something special, it was not the purpose of Cordelia's return, but it definitely becomes HIM again. I honestly think Angel lost himself in that beginning of season 5, all these means, the fact he is the boss of Wolfram and Hart, he lost sight of his mission, his quest for redemption, he lost hope ! Cordelia has always been like a light in Angel's life, his link to the Power that be, so she is the good person to remind Angel why he is fighting and I think the point of the episode was not "Angel learns something special" but more "Angel is back, again himself" and I think the line @Grace doesn't like "I'm Angel. I beat the bad guys" expresses perfectly this idea. Plus, the vision that Cordelia transmits to him by kissing him is a message of hope, a way to say to Angel that now he knows more precisely the ennemies he is fighting and he can acts or not. It's his decisions, his fight !
All of that leads to the speech of hope he made to his crew one episode before the finale.
But isn't the whole point or at least in large part, the point that he gets the vision from her that sets her on the path towards the NFA battle that sends LA to hell? I mean he says "cordy gave me a vision" and that set him on the Black Thorn path.
I will say that if Cordy had said to him at some point during the episode "you don't need me, you got this... trust yourself" but no she says
CORDELIA I naturally assumed you'd be lost without me, but this?
ANGEL I am lost without you.
But I mean obviously mine and @crazysoulless ' opinion re YW are unpopular thus the post on this thread so ... probably no use in arguing these points here. LOL.
Antho
Scooby
I think the whole point of the episode was Angel becoming again himself, find hope and refocus on the battle that is being prepared instead of being distracted by other things. I think Cordelia allows Angel to regain self-confidence and then she sends him on the path of his ennemies, on a path of his destiny in a way !
Maybe they exaggerated things with the whole "Angel is lost without Cordelia", I can agree with that. But for me to think about himself and find hope Angel needed advice from someone who was part of his life but who was not in his present present, and of course someone he would take advice seriously. There are not many candidates even if Doyle or Buffy could have played the role.