Angel with Buffy: Abusive Boyfriend?

[Wishing Oceans]

Something that always seemed odd to me were the similarities between Angel and the sparkling Edward Cullen of Twilight. One thing that IMO opinion they have in common is tendencies to be an abusive boyfriend.

As said by the law, examples of abusive relationships are being overprotective and getting overly jealous, things Angel has done time and time again. In the beginning of the series, Angel used to follow Buffy around all the time. An example of such would be when Buffy was walking down the street and was attacked by The Three. Angel came to her rescue, and when Buffy asked if he'd been following her he responded with a silky "maybe." Angel has always shown an overly developed urge to protect her. Not just by following her around, but by making decisions for her, such as in I Will Remember You, but I'll get to that later. 😀

In the Yoko Factor, Angel came back and proceeded to beat up Buffy's boyfriend. While Riley may have started it, the point was that Angel was trying to control her life. He wanted to choose who she could and couldn't date, what she felt, how she remembered.

Also in I Will Remember You, and other episodes, he disregarded Buffy's choices and basically took away her free will.

Angel has stated many times that he isn't good for her, that they shouldn't go to far. While that could be seen as being noble and treating her right, I see it as a kind of reverse psychology. If he thought it was wrong then he never should've started it in the first place. What I see happening is Buffy feeling as though she should prove herself, and convince him that everything is fine by doing the opposite of what he says. Like in Surprise: though he said that he didn't think they should go any further, he definitely didn't make any attempt to stop it even if he didn't think it was right. He's lived for hundreds of years, I'm sure he knows how the mind works.

As for jealousy, we have all seen him "go all Dawson on her" before. Even when he was soulless, he wanted Buffy all for himself. She was his, in his mind.

To wrap it up, I don't think that Angel is that bad, but his controlling and stalkerish behaviors toward Buffy and the way he acted despite her young age [14- 17] was questionable and I think that he really needs to become more respectful for her privacy.

Thoughts?

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Angel? Abusive? How many times did he hit her? 2, was it? I mean while he had a soul. In Sanctuary and Amends. But wait, isn't Buffy stronger then him? Yeah she is. Similarity between Angel and Edward.. oh I think I'm going to puke (sorry, big Twillight hater). He did beat up Riley, but who first started the fight. That's how to circle go with Buffy's boys. Xander was jealous of Angel, Riley was jealous of Angel, Spike was jealous of Riley, and finally Angel was jealous of Spike. In The Yoko Factor Riley was way tooo jealous, he thought Buffy and Angel slept again, I mean he trust her that much? And yeah, I do think Angel was jealous of Riley, guy could take love of his life to the light and sleep with her, two simple things Angel wanted. I don't want to start with IWRY, I don't see abuse there. Jealous? Yeah. Well who wouldn't be? Abusive? Never.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Angel? Abusive? How many times did he hit her? 2, was it? I mean while he had a soul. In Sanctuary and Amends. But wait, isn't Buffy stronger then him? Yeah she is. Similarity between Angel and Edward.. oh I think I'm going to puke (sorry, big Twillight hater). He did beat up Riley, but who first started the fight. That's how to circle go with Buffy's boys. Xander was jealous of Angel, Riley was jealous of Angel, Spike was jealous of Riley, and finally Angel was jealous of Spike. In The Yoko Factor Riley was way tooo jealous, he thought Buffy and Angel slept again, I mean he trust her that much? And yeah, I do think Angel was jealous of Riley, guy could take love of his life to the light and sleep with her, two simple things Angel wanted. I don't want to start with IWRY, I don't see abuse there. Jealous? Yeah. Well who wouldn't be? Abusive? Never.

Hitting wise, physical abuse doesn't have to be present in an abusive relationship. Worse than physical is mental/ psychological. And I hate Twilight too. With a burning, fiery passion of death. 😀

Actually, I forgot that Angel ever hit her. Thanks for reminding me though. 😀 Though Buffy may be stronger than him, it doesn't make it right to hit. Violence is never OK. Do kids get punished when they throw a tantrum and try to hurt their parents? Yes, because even if their parents are stronger it's not appropriate and it's not right.

As for Riley... Well, he's a piece of work. I don't even know what to say about him. I'd start a topic about his abusive behaviors, but I don't think anyone would debate about that one with me. 😀

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I think Angel never mentaly abused her. Angelus did played with her that way, but that is another story. I think Spike hurted her that way thousand times worst.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I never saw Angel as abusive. Even as Angelus, it just never occurred to me to think of Bangel as an unhealthy relationship. Even when he hit her in episodes like "Amends", I never ever saw Angel as the kind of bastard who beats women... And I don't think I ever could because all the good he did definitely outweighed the bad.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

I never saw Angel as abusive. Even as Angelus, it just never occurred to me to think of Bangel as an unhealthy relationship. Even when he hit her in episodes like "Amends", I never ever saw Angel as the kind of bastard who beats women... And I don't think I ever could because all the good he did definitely outweighed the bad.

As I've said, it's a more of a control [psychological] thing than a physical abuse. And the reason a lot of us don't don't see any wrong in the relationship would most likely be because it's from Buffy's point of view. Buffy was infatuated with him; Of course she wouldn't question his actions. 🙂

I think Angel never mentaly abused her. Angelus did played with her that way, but that is another story. I think Spike hurted her that way thousand times worst.

Oh my, I have so many things to say about THAT. 😀 To keep it short, Spike DID hurt her, but he was soulless. When he had a soul, he did nothing of the sort. Did Angelus hurt her? Yeah, a trillion times more than Spike ever did. And he didn't just hurt her: He broke her, mentally.

 

[Flannen]

Something that always seemed odd to me were the similarities between Angel and the sparkling Edward Cullen of Twilight. One thing that IMO opinion they have in common is tendencies to be an abusive boyfriend.

As said by the law, examples of abusive relationships are being overprotective and getting overly jealous, things Angel has done time and time again. In the beginning of the series, Angel used to follow Buffy around all the time. An example of such would be when Buffy was walking down the street and was attacked by The Three. Angel came to her rescue, and when Buffy asked if he'd been following her he responded with a silky "maybe." Angel has always shown an overly developed urge to protect her. Not just by following her around, but by making decisions for her, such as in I Will Remember You, but I'll get to that later. 😀

In the Yoko Factor, Angel came back and proceeded to beat up Buffy's boyfriend. While Riley may have started it, the point was that Angel was trying to control her life. He wanted to choose who she could and couldn't date, what she felt, how she remembered.

Also in I Will Remember You, and other episodes, he disregarded Buffy's choices and basically took away her free will.

Angel has stated many times that he isn't good for her, that they shouldn't go to far. While that could be seen as being noble and treating her right, I see it as a kind of reverse psychology. If he thought it was wrong then he never should've started it in the first place. What I see happening is Buffy feeling as though she should prove herself, and convince him that everything is fine by doing the opposite of what he says. Like in Surprise: though he said that he didn't think they should go any further, he definitely didn't make any attempt to stop it even if he didn't think it was right. He's lived for hundreds of years, I'm sure he knows how the mind works.

As for jealousy, we have all seen him "go all Dawson on her" before. Even when he was soulless, he wanted Buffy all for himself. She was his, in his mind.

To wrap it up, I don't think that Angel is that bad, but his controlling and stalkerish behaviors toward Buffy and the way he acted despite her young age [14- 17] was questionable and I think that he really needs to become more respectful for her privacy.

Thoughts?

I can see where you're coming from but I think it is really reaching to go as far as to say he was abusive. No offence but I find that ludicrous and in some ways it belittles the actual nature and awfulness of abusive relationships.

Being protective, as in ACTUALLY saving her life, isn't exactly the same as the control used in an abusive relationship is it? Yes, he protected her but so did lots of people; Giles, Xander, Spike, Riley etc etc. Spike used to follow her around all the time too. That makes him abusive too then surely?

I don't get the reverse psychology thing either. One of the traits with Angel is that he is actually genuine. He could have quite easily stayed, leaving her to go start a whole new life is a rather dramatic use of reverse psychology and not what that whole thing was about at all. Also HE didn't start it, THEY did. Him and Buffy, together, all the way through. And hey, that's love for you it's something you can easily control.

He didn't think that maybe they shouldn't go any further, it was more a making sure she was aware of what she was doing and making sure she consented, the opposite of being controlling and abusive.

And then the fight with Riley? You mean when Angel actually had no idea who Riley was at first? When he just got jumped and defended himself and then later found out? Of course there was going to be tension there, there always is when present meets ex. But he actually then cleared off pretty quick, as soon as Buffy said she could handle what was going on. He had full respect for her decision and left her to get on with it. He wasn't trying to control her life, his whole speech to her in 'Sanctuary' was about that. They don't live in each other's worlds anymore. Buffy went all 'Dawson' on him about Faith.

And when you watch a show set in a fantasy world with vampires and Slayers the fact he hit her cannot be treated in the same way at all. Tons of male characters hit Buffy. Actually, Buffy hit Angel tons of times too and there's plenty of domestic abuse at the hands of a woman too, but Buffy would never be accused of doing that.

Angel, especially season three and onwards definitely respected her privacy and her decisions. He didn't go rifling through her clothes in secret after all, did he? 😉

And I'd happily debate how Riley isn't abusive too if you want to start a thread! 😀

Also, apologies if I sound ranty, I don't mean to! lol

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

But Spike loved her. If he was capable of understanding love he could understand hurt also. Angel broke her? When? Where? Did I skip that part? I only saw when he fixed her. I saw how happy she was. Them were. I only saw smile, after all those tears who came and went, I saw smile that stayed till the end.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Flannen agrees: Maybe he did, but Angelus didn't have a soul, just like the excuse you've given for why it isn't wrong for Spike to have done it.

What do you mean? What I meant was we can't really blame Spike for hurting Buffy because he was soulless, like we can't really blame Angelus.

 

[Flannen]

What do you mean? What I meant was we can't really blame Spike for hurting Buffy because he was soulless, like we can't really blame Angelus.

Sorry, that was my misinterpretation. It read to me like it was still a comparison of souled Spike vs Angelus. My bad 🙂

 

[Fredsicle]

Thank you for making this thread. It occured to me before that Angel did seem a little Ike Turner-y at times.

 

[white avenger]

Angel? Abusive? How many times did he hit her? 2, was it? I mean while he had a soul. .

Which is 2 more times than Spike with a soul hit her, and I'm quite sure that Faith, Dana, and Illyria could testify that he has no qualms about hitting a woman.

(For the record, I believe that Angel was more overly protective of Buffy than abusive of her. I just wanted Spike to get a fair shake on the hitting Buffy issue)

 

[Fredsicle]

Which is 2 more times than Spike with a soul hit her, and I'm quite sure that Faith, Dana, and Illyria could testify that he has no qualms about hitting a woman.

Actually, he did hit Anya when she almost exposed him having a soul.

 

[MinwaraYana]

I can't see how Angel is abusive. I know he hit Buffy once or twice. But Buffy ain't ordinary girl. She's the Slayer. Sometimes hitting her speaks better than talking to her. 🙂

 

[Flannen]

ubi4soft agrees: Anya was a demon

And Buffy was a Slayer - superhuman. That's the real difficulty in trying to say that any male in the 'verse is abusive for hitting Buffy, cos we're in the 'verse, not in our world.

Which I guess is why they chose the Debbie/Pete thing to explore this topic which is more reflective of the 'real world' but still with that fantastical element.

and I'm quite sure that Faith, Dana, and Illyria could testify that he has no qualms about hitting a woman.

Most of them, and some more, could also testify they have no qualms about hitting a man, which is still abusive if we're going down that route. (That's not at you at all even though it's your quote - more just another way of showing how its different within the context of the two shows 🙂)

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Ok Spike never hit her while he had a soul. Angel did. But she did hit him too. Who said girlfriend can't be abusive? Maybe Spike never hit her, but he hurted her, not with his arms, but with his words. Maybe Angel did to, but Buffy understood that.

 

[Eleftheria]

Abusive Angel???NO WAY!!!
I see Angel as one of the most protective(not in a controlling way) and sweet boyfriends...at first(season 1) he didn't follow her because he was stalking her or because he wanted her to be with him...he wanted to get to know her better,to help her with her mission,Buffy is Angel's destiny...she is the reason Angel's life changed.
Angelus has no soul and he is the most badass vampire ever...he fought Buffy with more than punches and kicks,he used different methods...and Spike with no soul was humiliating her and trying to rape her...so,i will not talk about what both vamps did when they had no soul...

When Angel hit her in Amends i understood it because his psychological situation was not good,Buffy also hit him...the whole thing between them was very tense...i knew from the very beginning that punches would be involved...and in Sanctuary Buffy started it and she is the slayer...anyway i don't like it that he hit her...but it was under special circumstances...Angel would never hurt Buffy,he loves her and he gave up HIS HUMANITY in IWRY so that she couldn't be hurt and die sooner than normal
Spike didn't hit her but think about the whole thing between them...

(and about Angel kicking Riley's ass...i don't wanna be mean,but i saw that on youtube and felt really satisifed...)


and i would never like to compare Edward with my Angel...

 

[Wishing Oceans]

=Eleftheria;757132]Abusive Angel???NO WAY!!!
I see Angel as one of the most protective(not in a controlling way) and sweet boyfriends...at first(season 1) he didn't follow her because he was stalking her or because he wanted her to be with him...he wanted to get to know her better,to help her with her mission,Buffy is Angel's destiny...she is the reason Angel's life changed.

When you want to get to know someone better, do YOU follow them around everywhere? I really hope not. That, in my book, counts as extremely creepy. When friendly people want to get to know others, they normally approach the person and talk to them. They don't secretly stalk them. And I don't believe that Buffy is Angel's destiny. Angel's destiny IMO was to save the world. He met a girl like Darla along the way, dated for a couple months, it's over. I also disagree that Angel's life changed because of Buffy. The only way I can see is he went evil, and THAT certainly isn't something to brag about.

Angelus has no soul and he is the most badass vampire ever...he fought Buffy with more than punches and kicks,he used different methods...and Spike with no soul was humiliating her and trying to rape her...so,i will not talk about what both vamps did when they had no soul...

Angelus was evil, insane, messed up, and completely obsessed with Buffy. Spike was bad until season 4. He may have humiliated her, but didn't she do the same to him? If you can excuse Angel from hitting her, then you can excuse Spike from humiliating her. And the AR... that was slightly Buffy's fault. I am in no way saying it was an OK thing for Spike to do or that Buffy deserved it, but in their entire relationship "no" always meant "yes." He was soulless, he didn't know the difference between right and wrong, so he was confused and thought that he would just make Buffy face her feelings. It was very wrong for him to do, but he didn't realize it was rape until afterwards, when e knew he had to get a soul.

When Angel hit her in Amends i understood it because his psychological situation was not good,Buffy also hit him...the whole thing between them was very tense...i knew from the very beginning that punches would be involved...and in Sanctuary Buffy started it and she is the slayer...anyway i don't like it that he hit her...but it was under special circumstances...Angel would never hurt Buffy,he loves her and he gave up HIS HUMANITY in IWRY so that she couldn't be hurt and die sooner than normal
Spike didn't hit her but think about the whole thing between them...

Angel has hurt her. And in IWRY, that was violation of the mind. Plain and simple. What Willow did to Tara wasn't OK, what Angel did to Buffy wasn't either. And with Spike... Without an explanation, I can only say that their relationship seemed fine to me. A lot healthier than Bangel.

Ok Spike never hit her while he had a soul. Angel did. But she did hit him too. Who said girlfriend can't be abusive? Maybe Spike never hit her, but he hurted her, not with his arms, but with his words. Maybe Angel did to, but Buffy understood that.

When did Spike ever hurt her? I don't remember that at all.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

When did Spike ever hurt her? I don't remember that at all.

Watch again whole season 6, maybe you capture it 😉

 

[Flannen]

When you want to get to know someone better, do YOU follow them around everywhere? I really hope not. That, in my book, counts as extremely creepy. When friendly people want to get to know others, they normally approach the person and talk to them. They don't secretly stalk them. And I don't believe that Buffy is Angel's destiny. Angel's destiny IMO was to save the world. He met a girl like Darla along the way, dated for a couple months, it's over. I also disagree that Angel's life changed because of Buffy. The only way I can see is he went evil, and THAT certainly isn't something to brag about.

The problem is that nothing in the 'verse can be seen with the eyes of us in our reality. The 'normal' ways of doing things don't apply. No we wouldn't necessarily 'follow' people in secret, well some of us might, but then none of us are 200 year old vampires are we? The obstacle for Angel was that if he revealed his true nature to early she would never let him help her.

Angel's life absolutely changed because of Buffy. Look at Angel's life before he met her. He would never have been set upon his path to be a Champion and ave the world of his own accord. That is why the PTB sent Whistler to him to show him Buffy. Buffy gave him something to live for, to fight for. She helped him to WANT to save the world by making him realise that it was worth fighting for. Not many people deny the influence that Buffy had on Angel's life and his path.

As for the other points you've raised, they're discussed at length in other threads so have a mooch about for them. Briefly reiterating what I've said before with regards to Seeing Red. Buffy and Spike's relationship before with as you say 'no' meaning 'yes' is completely different. There's a huge difference between saying no and how Buffy actually reacts in that instance. She says and does way more than just say no. But this isn't really about Spike, it's about Angel.

And again, there's a couple of threads about the IWRY thing. It's very easy to say it's exactly the same as Willow with Tara, but fact of the matter is, it's not. The decisions made, and the reasons for them are so far apart.

Btw, I'm enjoying discussing stuff with you 🙂