Are you ready to be strong?

[Lyri]

For me, this whole argument boils down to the Slayers now having the choice to fight or not.

Before this, Buffy, Faith, Kendra and every other Slayer had no choice. They had no lives, no freedom, no will of their own. They got the Calling and that was it, until the day they died.

Not so for these girls.

Like @thetopher said, no one knew what the amulet would do. All they knew was they they had to go into the Hellmouth and wait - and Buffy already knew what was waiting for them when they went in there. They needed competent fighters to hold the uber vamps back until the amulet kicked in. So she offered them the choice - become Slayers and fight or become Slayers and don't fight. Every girl who went into the Hellmouth chose to go into the Hellmouth. Every one of those 500 Slayers in squads chose to be in those squads. Those 1,300 girls living out their lives chose to live out their lives.

Yes, I think Buffy taking the decision out of the hands of the, what, 1,750 girls who didn't get the opportunity to vote is a violation of their right and their autonomy, but Buffy isn't forcing them to fight like she was forced to fight, like Faith was forced to fight, like Kendra was forced to fight. She's not holding the argument of 'if you don't fight, people will die, the world will end, you have a duty to fulfill, it is your destiny' over their heads. Shes' allowing them the opportunity to decide for themselves, a decision she never got to make.

She gave them the power, yes, but it's up to them if they want to use it or not, and she's happy to let them live their lives in peace.

 

[The Bronze]

Let's not pretend that the Shadowmen and Willow did the same thing. The Shadowmen chained up a young girl and infused her with a demon. You can see her scared and screaming. It's pretty clear that it's a rape equivalent.

Now contrast that with Buffy and Faith never mentioning their calling being anything like that and then the visual evidence of the potentials enjoying becoming slayers in Chosen. No chains, no screaming and a choice given to representatives of the group affected. Also proposed and supported by two people who had been through the process.

 

[Silverspike]

Personally I've always disliked the 'empowerment' spell idea. I really don't think Whedon thought the whole idea through properly and how it would come across to many women viewers, because in my section of the net many saw it more as a metaphor for rape then anything else.

I mean Whedon's solution to Buffy's problem touched on what many women have experienced down the centuries and that is to have no power over their own bodies, and so by Buffy doing what she did just reinforced those issues, however well meaning Whedon may have been.

Maybe being a man with a males perspective he didn't see of that side of things, I just don't know.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

She transforms them rather than having their lives ended. It's a violation but the alternative to what we are shown is certain death.

That's a cope out answer. As I said before, the writers are god. They could have easily had the spell affect those in the vicinity that chose to fight- ergo the title Chosen. The thousands that had no choice were not chosen, they were dictated to.

There is a massive difference between her making 'her' potentials into slayers and making everyone all over the world into slayers. It's not about power... it's about control.

 

[The Bronze]

That's a cope out answer. As I said before, the writers are god. They could have easily had the spell affect those in the vicinity that chose to fight- ergo the title Chosen. The thousands that had no choice were not chosen, they were dictated to.

Surely that's more of a cop out. If the writer is God then he could have not bothered with The First at all. Just written a paradise for everyone and the problem is sorted.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Surely that's more of a cop out. If the writer is God then he could have not bothered with The First at all. Just written a paradise for everyone and the problem is sorted.

Exactly. So what message was trying to be delivered. And that message is the crux of the problem.

 

[The Bronze]

Well the message I got from it was that in general people would prefer improved physical strength and a chance of survival than being stabbed repeatedly by bringers, eaten and brutalised by uber vamps or entered by the original evil. Also that Buffy and the scoobies will always be there when things get bad trying to make things a bit better. It's a positive message.

 

[thetopher]

That's a cope out answer. As I said before, the writers are god.

No, blaming the writers is a cop-out answer. The writers set it all up and we, the viewer have to decide if what the characters were doing was morally right in the cuircumstance as they are presented.

Otherwise Buffy's speech is meaningless because, you know what, the writers wrote it, the writers decided everything so why the hell have we got a thread about Buffy's decision? 😕 

There is a massive difference between her making 'her' potentials into slayers and making everyone all over the world into slayers. It's not about power... it's about control.

Again I find myself disagree because all those slayers still have a choice- whether to fight or not. They have the power AND the control, wheras Buffy, Faith and Kendra only had the first of those.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

No, blaming the writers is a cop-out answer. The writers set it all up and we, the viewer have to decide if what the characters were doing was morally right in the cuircumstance as they are presented.

Otherwise Buffy's speech is meaningless because, you know what, the writers wrote it, the writers decided everything so why the hell have we got a thread about Buffy's decision? 😕

You misunderstood my point.. I dont give a damn about the characters and what the characters were doing. It's about the writers and producers and the message they wanted to present. It's about the message. The intent. Not about fictitious characters.

 

[thetopher]

Right, gotcha.

I still think, with the whole seasonal set-up and the First trying to wipe out the slayer-line by murdering powerless girls, then the writers had to go down that route. 'Fight or die, you already have that power inside you (you're already a potential), you've already been chosen but now you will have the power and the choice with what you do with it.'

I mean, I get the other pov, just like I get why some people think that what Angel did in 'NFA' was needlessly bringing on an apocalypse- it's all in the interpretation of the writing. I just don't happen to agree.

The coda of the series (not just S7) is that the slayer is alone. She will always be alone (except if she's in the company of another slayer and even then they tend to butt heads) and nothing can change that.
The slayer has a duty- fight and die at the behest of the Watcher's Council. No choice. They simultaneuosly have power but are powerless.

To save the day Buffy can give all those girls that choice to use the power that is already in them to do whatever the hell they want. Band together, ignore their calling, whatever they wish.
In the episode 'Lessons' it's stated that 'it's about the power'- by both Buffy and the First. But by the end of the show that message takes on a new meaning- it's not just about the power, it's about what you choose to do with that power; share it, ignore it, revel in it to stop an apocalypse, all of the above?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

To save the day Buffy can give all those girls that choice to use the power that is already in them to do whatever the hell they want. Band together, ignore their calling, whatever they wish.
In the episode 'Lessons' it's stated that 'it's about the power'- by both Buffy and the First. But by the end of the show that message takes on a new meaning- it's not just about the power, it's about what you choose to do with that power; share it, ignore it, revel in it to stop an apocalypse, all of the above?

Thats fine. There would have been no issue had it stopped there. Its the montage where everyone around the world receives the boon. If it would have been what you stated then I would not have had a problem either. It's the montage that is the message. Not what necessarily happened within the context of the show.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I don't know about these other girls that went back to their lives and the numbers @Lyri is referencing, so I can't comment on that. From the perspective of whether or not what Buffy and Willow did was fair, unfair, moral, etc. I am not sure these facts matter to me. That is all after the point. If, for example, I made a decision that could have potentially killed many people but, as luck would have it, nobody got hurt doesn't excuse me from being judged harshly from a moral perspective. I'm sorry if Lyri or anyone else already made this point earlier, I can't remember what everyone said anymore. And I understand this opinion of mine commits me to a certain ethical position that is in itself debatable as well (going back to the mention of utilitarianism, Kant, etc. from earlier).

After reading everyone's thoughts in the thread I wanted to add quickly that, to me, it is not simply a matter of, "well, I have these new powers, but I can do what I want with them, so there is no problem here". Being given the power of a Slayer is an enormous responsibility, and that responsibility can be a very heavy burden, especially for a thoughtful person. If I was one of the girls given slayer power, it wouldn't have been a simple matter of deciding I didn't want to do it and just go on and live an unremarkable life. Even if I never learned what a slayer was, the moment I discovered that I had superhero power and abilities everything would change for me from that point forward. I would be forced to change and deal with it, and soon enough I would feel the compulsion to do something with it to protect people, make the world a better place, etc. I think thoughtful people would feel that burden and deep responsibility. And not all thoughtful people would just jump right in and volunteer to be that hero person either (imagine for a moment you were given the choice beforehand). I'd be very reluctant to volunteer for such a thing, because I've thought about it and I know (speaking for myself) that there would be a great many things about that lifestyle that I don't think I would enjoy, that would even be the source of extreme anxiety, doubt, unhappiness, and more. Buffy herself new that feeling and desired to be normal all of the time. In my case, it might be possible that I couldn't love anyone anymore, or at least not like I want to normally, and since romantic love is the most important thing to me that would utterly diminish an essential quality to who I am. What I am trying to say is that, though maybe all of us would feel differently if WE had been those girls turned into slayers e.g. some of us would embrace it, some of us would be resentful, some thoughtless people would just walk away and act like nothing happened (but if the comics were realistic it would catch up with them anyway in the end, 1300 wouldn't be able to just walk away and that's that. No way, not in the real world, something like that would chase them their whole lives, realistically it wouldn't be something you could just walk away from) BUT I myself would very likely feel incredibly resentful for having that choice made for me, mostly because of the sheer weight of responsibility that I would immediately and necessarily feel was placed on my shoulders. I certainly would not have looked at it as some a priori favor or empowerment. Empowered to kill deadly beings, yes. But empowered to choose to live my own life my way, no. Being gifted with slayer power would be what we call a "game changer"; it would change everything immediately, and many things that I would want to be right now I would be forced to leave behind. That is how I would feel personally. I think @Taake implied what I've just said earlier in the thread, but since I'm speaking for myself I wanted to be clear.

 

[The Bronze]

@AnthonyCordova great in depth analysis as usual. You didn't mention how you'd feel if you were going to be stabbed repeatedly and someone had the power to help you and didn't though?

Or how would you feel if you saw the world fall apart around you. Everyone bring eaten by vampires, the first evil entering everyone man, women and children. Surely your reservations about receiving power would take a back seat to a painful death and the apocalypse?

 

[AnthonyCordova]

@The Bronze, I don't know, isn't the conceit of the show that most people don't know about what happens in the shadows? I know it's a flimsy thing in the show, being such high fantasy in that sense, but nevertheless. I was addressing just the idea of being turned like that without my consent or knowledge. Working within the conceit of the show, I don't know, Denver isn't a hellmouth or anywhere near one, the show tells us to believe that most people don't know what the hell is going on (which is why everyone is so shocked when they see a demon for the first time) so that would lead me to believe that most normal people don't have any experience with anything like that to believe that stuff was happening. I just started the comics Season 8, so I do realize that it gets more and more absurd. But working with everything up to the comics, why would a normal person in the middle of nowhere like myself be concerned or even aware of "everyone being eaten by vampires", the first etc? I wouldn't know about it. I know it is flimsy given the way it works out in the show (how could what happens in Sunnydale not get out to the world public at large, how could vampires not be public knowledge eventually?) but like I said, that is the conceit of the show, so I am trying to be fair to what the show tries to imply (that it is a hidden, dark world where those things happen, away from the vast majority of people's awareness) and within that context I don't see how those things would factor into my feeling about it.

But just taking a step back, risk is entailed in everything in life, that doesn't mean I would want to change it. Step away from Buffy and just imagine you were given remarkable superpowers one day. Now you can prevent your friends from being brutally stabbed to death in the streets. Setting aside the fact that this is extremely unlikely of an event to happen, would I desire to have that power? I would think hard about that, because like I said, the responsibility and burden and the way my life would necessarily change would have to be taken deadly seriously for me to desire those powers or view them as a gift. So in a sense, what you ask of me doesn't really change anything. If I had the power to stop powerful evil and be the world's greatest super hero and keep good people from being hurt that doesn't mean I would choose that. Maybe that is a job better suited for someone else than me. I only get one life to live, and if you think about it, (and as many comics and movies imply about the topic) in many ways signing on to be the hero (or being forced to be the hero) is tantamount to being given (or willfully choosing) a life of unhappiness, stress, etc. Like I said, I have one life to live, would I want to throw away my chance of being happy and living my life my way and embrace intense world-shaking responsibility? And you know what, if the world really wanted it or really needed it, and I was the one chosen for the task, I probably would just deal with it. But that doesn't mean I would be happy with that, probably not, and I certainly wouldn't have looked at it as a gift or a favor. Chances are very likely I would be a pretty unhappy hero in many situations. And empowered wouldn't be the word I would use to describe it. Especially if my powers prevented me from being with my beloved, that would truly piss me off. I'd do the job for humanity's sake but I would be upset about it for my whole life.

 

[gite63]

And empowered wouldn't be the word I would use to describe it. Especially if my powers prevented me from being with my beloved, that would truly piss me off. I'd do the job for humanity's sake but I would be upset about it for my whole life.

You would do the job because you have a conscience and you would feel obliged to do it (save people), but you would resent it.

I've never dreamed of being in the police or being a fire fighter, or work with the Red Cross, for instance. And I don't. Like most of us. And there are plenty of people in need in this world, that's sure. If I had superpowers, though, I would feel that I had to help people, even if I didn't want to do it.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I was addressing just the idea of being turned like that without my consent or knowledge.

But to me its more than that. In a world where we lose so many of our civil liberties and freedoms, the last freedom we truly have is with our own bodies. Yet the show posits that it is okay to lose even this freedom as long as someone of authority deems it worthwhile; as long as it's for moral, or civic duties, then it's okay.

 

[The Bronze]

@AnthonyCordova
I'm not talking of events in the comics I'm just using what we see on screen in Season 7. The First states outright that it's plan is to take the whole world. It's doing pretty well. We see potentials being murdered all season and we see the size of the army in the hellmouth. Without intervention the world is going to fall and we're not talking in the distant future. So while I can see that you wouldn't be keen on the super powers and responsibilities that go with them, it has to be better than the imminent alternative. 
@Mr. Pole I have the message for you. It's actually a message that runs throughout the show not just Chosen. The message is that sometimes life is hard and unfair. You don't always have to luxury of an option where everything works out perfectly and we all live happily ever after.

Sometimes you are presented with a variety of unpleasant options and you have to pick the least bad amongst them with the best of intentions. This is what Buffy always does. In Becoming she sends the man she loves to hell because it is him or him and everyone else. In the gift it is her, Dawn or everyone else. Countless examples throughout the show where a good option doesn't exist. This time it is give people powers without having time to call each person individually or the apocalypse.

Once you've made the tough decision you then follow through with everything you have and try to make the best of it. Which they did here. They saved the world and then went looking to help the people affected. You simply can't win them all. Buffy isn't a Disney film and it never was.

 

[EVIL UU]

You didn't mention how you'd feel if you were going to be stabbed repeatedly and someone had the power to help you and didn't though?

Well, personally, knowing everything I know about the slayers - stab away! There are worse things than death in Buffyverse.

Or how would you feel if you saw the world fall apart around you. Everyone bring eaten by vampires, the first evil entering everyone man, women and children. Surely your reservations about receiving power would take a back seat to a painful death and the apocalypse?

Man, I'm already dead - I don't care.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Countless examples

Show me a countless example that was presented the same way that the Chosen monologue was presented and I may agree. But throughout seven years there was nothing else like that on screen, so the meaning of that scene was separate and independent than any previous narrative. The fact that it begins the third act is another reason as to its differing from any other scene. Therefor that most be looked on in a different light. It is a lone, isolated narrative.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

@The Bronze I was thinking more of all the women at the end of the last episode that were turned into slayers all over the world. They weren't present for the battle with the first and were never going to be. The battle with the First was going to be decided by the girls present with Buffy and gang in the hellmouth. You're right that eventually, if the First was unchallenged the bringer would have tracked them all and killed them (the potentials) eventually, even if you were on the other side of the world (as happened on the show). I wasn't thinking about that when I made my first post. The point I wanted to make was something else. But I stress you're right about that, I forgot about those details.

Going back to the op and original discussion, I have problems calling being turned into a slayer "empowerment". As I said in my first post, If you mean it in the sense you and others have described, being formidable in fighting, being able to kill demons and capable of protecting yourself and the people around you, yes. But being changed into something as radically different as a slayer is to be committed to completely different choices and paths in life afterwards, to being burdened with great responsibility, to changing fundamental things about yourself on the inside, and as many heroes in comics, tv, movies etc. address thematically, it often is a path of unhappiness too, because of the responsibility and everything else (life paths becoming blocked off and unavailable, etc). From this perspective, being turned suddenly into a slayer is anything but empowerment. I didn't feel this point was being given enough attention. And that was why I spent a little time discussing how being turned into a slayer wasn't something you could just walk away from and pretend like nothing happened. Like it or not, you are fundamentally and irreversibly different after being turned into a slayer, and there is no ignoring that. I don't like the comics saying most of them just went on living normal lives (if that's what they say) because in reality that wouldn't be possible at all. The changes as a result of such a transformation would make themselves an issue again and again in their lives, and sooner or later they would have to face the difficult questions. In this sense, Buffy didn't give them a choice or options at all, although that seemed to be a point of disagreement in the earlier portion of this thread discussion.