Arguments Against Arguments Against Spuffy

[Puppet]

Being called a 'rape apologist' isn't super fun, I gotta say. But one of my least favorite arguments against the pairing is definitely the fans that try to argue that I hate Buffy; "Why would you want Buffy to be in an abusive relationship with someone who she can never love as much as Angel?" Right.

One of my least favorite things when it comes to shipping in any fandom is the idea that you can only judge a couple based on a previous relationship they had. We can't talk Spuffy without also talking Bangel or even Biley. My love of Spuffy doesn't exist in spite of Bangel or Biley, it has nothing to do with them (heh, see what I did there?), so why do Angel and Riley always have to come up when we're talking about Spike? (also, not saying only Bangel and Biley shippers do this, Spuffy shippers are guilty, as well)

 

[TriBel]

She is not a virginal, helpless little girl. We finally get a female protagonist who is given a complexity and grey behavior usually reserved for male characters, and people want to make her a victim again

This. TBH, I think S6 is about what it is to be a woman; to have desires that run counter to what society expects of a woman. I see them both as perpetrators/both as victims (not necessarily of each other but of a particular politico-ideology)...mostly the latter.

Shipping is a matter of personal preference

Seriously, I don't "ship" - which is another thing that annoys me. I didn't even know the term existed until I joined this board. I don't even think of them as characters, let alone people. They're narrative functions in a text (sue me...I've been doing it for a long time and it's difficult to break the habit). I wouldn't be accused of shipping two characters in a Toni Morrison novel or an Alfred Hitchcock film - what makes BtVS different? I suspect "shipping" is sometimes used as a pejorative (like "soap opera" and "romantic fiction") because it's mostly associated with women. I do think it's possible to put bias aside and argue for a particular relationship in a rational and informed way.

The one I have in mind is that Spike’s feeling came out from nowhere. While I don’t like how it is revealed to him : ( sorry but I find the scene at the end of 5x04 where he wake up from that dream sex with Buffy and was like « oh god no » cringey but it’s not a personal dislike toward that Spuffy scene, it’s a personal dislike to that concept of scene in general) I believe there are elements that prove that his feeling were there since some times. I wouldn’t say he loved her back to season 2 but there was attraction and from attraction to love there isn’t 100 kilometers 😂

They don't come out of nowhere - they come out of his mind (the title tells us this). The thing with the mind is only a small part of it is conscious. The model that's usually used is an iceberg - only the tip of it is above the water and visible. The majority of it is hidden - the hidden part of the mind is the unconscious. The unconscious consists of repressed feelings/wishes/fears/desires and memories. Occasionally these make their way to the conscious mind but in a disguised form. They're disguised because they're often painful and disturb our sense of who we are. Dreams have been called "the royal road to the unconscious". So what in effect Spike experiences is a repressed wish OR fear that's made its way to consciousness. It could be something he wants but it could also be something that frightens him. A soulless vampire falling for a slayer calls his identity into question. In English "Out of my mind" is also a way of saying "I'm going mad". However - and here's the catch - dreams are primarily visual and so abstract concepts like love (or hate) are difficult to portray. He dreams of having sex but in English we use the term "making love" as a way of saying "having sex". So...it could mean he just wants to shag her...it could mean "he loves her".

Once you understand it as a repressed wish/fear you can go back over their history and spot other moments when the feelings surfaced in a disguised form but neither of them have realised it. In a sense it's a bit of a cheat but also quite clever because it's a retcon without necessarily being a deliberate retcon: dreams are an actual retrospective reconstitution.

 

[r2dh2]

This. TBH, I think S6 is about what it is to be a woman; to have desires that run counter to what society expects of a woman. I see them both as perpetrators/both as victims (not necessarily of each other but of a particular politico-ideology)...mostly the latter.

OMG, this is a very interesting point. I had never thought of S6 in this way, but it makes a lot of sense. For me, this is still the by-product of her depression and life happening, but it clearly describes how feel about Buffy and Spuffy in this season. I think that a lot of Buffy's pain comes from her desperate attempt to negate her feelings for Spike (and I don’t mean romantic feelings necessarily, I’m not entirely convinced that she loved him in this season).

There are two scenes that stand-out to me and make me feel really sad. The first is when she cries with Tara, the only person she confides on about what is going on with Spike (and Tara is" curiously" an outsider). Buffy cannot understand her attraction to Spike and cannot (doesn’t want to) understand how she feels about it. She’s so ashamed of what everybody else might think of her if they knew of their “relationship.” So, she assumes that something is wrong with her because society tells her that letting herself feel something for Spike (through their sexual relationship) is wrong. It’s an incredibly painful scene.

The second scene is in Normal Again, when she’s drifting in and out of reality and Spike tells her exactly what I was thinking. That by openly accepting what they have/had, she might actually allow herself be happy. But she’s so scared of what her friends might think that she prefers misery (I’m paraphrasing).

There’s such an intense struggle inside Buffy this season… you finally allowed me to put a name on it. It’s intensely painful to see the way she denies herself what she wants because “it’s wrong” (read in Buffy’s voice when Faith stole her body), because her friends would never understand, because it’s not what is expected of her… Nice point!

 

[Cheese Slices]

I mean, this is why (and I believe it was mentioned recently) the pairing resonates so strongly with many lesbian and bi women (dunno about the G and the T, I haven't seen enough data), and that they argue it is a depiction of a "queer" relationship (if only metaphorically).
It's a very complex storyline and there is more to it than that, and a million of different interpretations, but this is a very valid and vibrant one, imo.
And even without the queer aspect, having a woman express emotions and a sexuality that are somewhat outside what is considered acceptable within a particular social context and how she deals with that (spoilers: not very well) is super interesting and refreshing, and the way the relationship constantly plays with gender roles is fascinating.

 

[GothicBuffy]

I mean, this is why (and I believe it was mentioned recently) the pairing resonates so strongly with many lesbian and bi women (dunno about the G and the T, I haven't seen enough data), and that they argue it is a depiction of a "queer" relationship (if only metaphorically).
It's a very complex storyline and there is more to it than that, and a million of different interpretations, but this is a very valid and vibrant one, imo.
And even without the queer aspect, having a woman express emotions and a sexuality that are somewhat outside what is considered acceptable within a particular social context and how she deals with that (spoilers: not very well) is super interesting and refreshing, and the way the relationship constantly plays with gender roles is fascinating.

Well they are both canonically bisexual so I guess that makes it queer alone.

 

[TriBel]

I mean, this is why (and I believe it was mentioned recently) the pairing resonates so strongly with many lesbian and bi women (dunno about the G and the T, I haven't seen enough data), and that they argue it is a depiction of a "queer" relationship (if only metaphorically).

It's queer in this sense (copied from Wiki because I'm lazy): Queering is the verb form of the word queer and comes from the shortened version of the phrase "queer reading."[1] It is a technique that came out of queer theory in the late 1980s through the 1990s[2] and is used as a way to challenge heteronormativity by analyzing places in a text that utilize heterosexuality or identity binaries.[3][4] Queering is a method that can be applied to literature as well as film to look for places where things such as gender, sexuality, masculinity, and femininity can be challenged and questioned. Originally the method of queering dealt more strictly with gender and sexuality, but quickly expanded to become more of an umbrella term for addressing identity as well as a range of systems of oppression and identity politics... queering is a way to "[deconstruct] the logics and frameworks operating within old and new...ethical concepts. It..."dismantles the dynamics of power and privilege persisting among diverse subjectivities."

Yeah...I know it sounds boring 😒 but, IMO, it's the queering of fundamental concepts such as time, history, language and subjectivity that make it a feminist text and it manages this without going full blown Écriture féminine. You get this with Spuffy...not with Bangel. Plus...biceps.

@r2dh2 - I'm not ignoring your post. I'll get back to you! It's a response I can't cut and paste!

 

[GothicBuffy]

It's queer in this sense (copied from Wiki because I'm lazy): Queering is the verb form of the word queer and comes from the shortened version of the phrase "queer reading."[1] It is a technique that came out of queer theory in the late 1980s through the 1990s[2] and is used as a way to challenge heteronormativity by analyzing places in a text that utilize heterosexuality or identity binaries.[3][4] Queering is a method that can be applied to literature as well as film to look for places where things such as gender, sexuality, masculinity, and femininity can be challenged and questioned. Originally the method of queering dealt more strictly with gender and sexuality, but quickly expanded to become more of an umbrella term for addressing identity as well as a range of systems of oppression and identity politics... queering is a way to "[deconstruct] the logics and frameworks operating within old and new...ethical concepts. It..."dismantles the dynamics of power and privilege persisting among diverse subjectivities."

Yeah...I know it sounds boring 😒 but, IMO, it's the queering of fundamental concepts such as time, history, language and subjectivity that make it a feminist text and it manages this without going full blown Écriture féminine. You get this with Spuffy...not with Bangel. Plus...biceps.

@r2dh2 - I'm not ignoring your post. I'll get back to you! It's a response I can't cut and paste!

I mean. I as a queer person don't think straight relationships can be queer because straight people playing with power dynamis or exploring masculinity and femininity as cishet people isn't queerness. But both Buffy and Spike are bi so that makes their relationship not really straight. I also have a lot of thought about how vampires subvert the gender binary and no vampire really adheres to societal understanding of gender but thats for a different post.

 

[Antho]

Can Buffy and Spike be considerated like BI persons ? It’s a serious question. I guess if for you Fuffy (Faith/Buffy) and Spangel ( Angel/Spike) are « canon » then the answers is yes they are BI. But It would make Angel and Faith also BI, isn’t it ?

 

[GothicBuffy]

Buffy sleeps with a woman and calls it one of the best experiences shes ever had in Season 8. Also Faith and Buffy was played intentionally to be like that, Eliza Dushku has spoken on this a few times. Faith definitely had a crush on Buffy and Buffy liked her back as far as I can see. Tbh i see Faith less as bi and more soley i to women. Spike canonically has slept with Angel. Also theres this episode of Angel where Angel makes references to.. sleeping with and spanking men??? The episode is Convictions, Season 5.

 

[Antho]

Buffy sleeps with a woman and calls it one of the best experiences shes ever had in Season 8. Also Faith and Buffy was played intentionally to be like that, Eliza Dushku has spoken on this a few times. Faith definitely had a crush on Buffy and Buffy liked her back as far as I can see. Tbh i see Faith less as bi and more soley i to women. Spike canonically has slept with Angel. Also theres this episode of Angel where Angel makes references to.. sleeping with and spanking men??? The episode is Convictions, Season 5.

Well I don’t considare Comic canon and in what I considare Canon which means the series, Fuffy and Spangel are all fans’s speculations. Not that I’m against but theses ships aren’t canon. They are part of fans’s theories. A lot of things are fans’s theories and sometimes it’s plausible but it doesn’t make it canon. At least that’s how I view things. I’m part of French Facebook group and you will be surprised how many people don’t even think at Faith/Buffy or Angel/Spike in that way.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Maybe let's turn this thread back to the topic and start a new one on Buffy & Spike's sexuality if people want to discuss it further.

 

[AstridDante]

I know some viewers picked up on Fuffy sub-text, I myself was not one of them and never on the show saw Buffy as being physically attracted to Faith. If you are taking the comics as canon, Buffy did have that experience with Satsu (twice!) which I guess makes her bi. Regarding Spike and Angel, again I know Spike made that comment ‘except that one time’ referring to him and Angel being intimate, I always took that as them engaged in some sort of threesome or foursome during which they inadvertently got intimate, I thought it was more a in jest remark but apparently JW confirmed that Spangel was a thing?!! I don’t know, I guess vamps are quite sexually free but I can’t really imagine Spike and Angel going at it!!

 

[spikeverse]

I know some viewers picked up on Fuffy sub-text, I myself was not one of them and never on the show saw Buffy as being physically attracted to Faith. If you are taking the comics as canon, Buffy did have that experience with Satsu (twice!) which I guess makes her bi. Regarding Spike and Angel, again I know Spike made that comment ‘except that one time’ referring to him and Angel being intimate, I always took that as them engaged in some sort of threesome or foursome during which they inadvertently got intimate, I thought it was more a in jest remark but apparently JW confirmed that Spangel was a thing?!! I don’t know, I guess vamps are quite sexually free but I can’t really imagine Spike and Angel going at it!!

I don't think that sleeping with a person of the same sex the evidence Spike does not show any attraction for another man more if in more than 200 years you have slept with ONE man only it means that you are hetero personally me if j was bi i would sleep with more than one woman especially if i am a vampire woman