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Arguments against Bangel that annoy you #2

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The argument that makes my blood boil is the one that claims that Spike ‘deserves’ Buffy’s love more than Angel because he did more to earn it.

This idea baffles me since even someone with just a basic understanding of feminism should understands why this sentiment is so gross; It treats Buffy like she is a prize that can be earned, rather than as a person with her own wants and needs.

Though I guess I shouldn’t be surprised considering how Spike treats Buffy in the show. Buffy tells him no and that she isn’t interested in him over and over and over again, yet he never respects her no.

«SPIKE: You can't deny it. There's something between us.
BUFFY: Loathing. Disgust.
[…]
SPIKE: Yeah, but - You are missing the point. This is real here. I love-
BUFFY: Don't!
SPIKE: Oh, come on, we need to talk-
[…]
SPIKE: You can't tell me that there isn't anything there between you and me. I know you feel something.
BUFFY: It's called revulsion
[…]
SPIKE: You can't just walk away from this.
BUFFY: What part of punching you in the face do you not understand?
SPIKE: So we had a fight. It's not our first, love, and it doesn't change anything.
BUFFY: It changes everything, Spike! I want you out. I want you out of this town, I want you off this planet! You don't come near me, my friends, or my family again ever! Understand?
SPIKE: No, it's not that easy. We have something, Buffy. It's not pretty, but it's real, and there's nothing either one of us can do about it. Like it or not, I'm in your life, you can't just shut me out.»

(5.14 Crush)

I thought I was going to have to look through multiple episodes to find enough material to illustrate my point, but nope Crush gave me more than enough to work with. This is why I’ve never understood why some people see Spike’s rape attempt as shocking or out of character for him. He already had an established pattern of ignoring Buffy’s boundaries.



(Compare Buffy’s enthusiastic consent to Angel in the series finale vs. her being worn down by Spike.

«Spike: *makes ten minute speech about Buffy being the most wonderful person in the world*
Buffy: *Sigh* I guess I'll give you a pity cuddle.

Angel: Hi.
Buffy: *Jumps bones*»
7.20-7.21)

As someone who likes Buffy and watched the show to see her story and see it centered on her arc and her wants it makes me beyond mad that Buffy is assaulted and traumatized by Spike and the last image of the scene, the thing that shows us what were supposed to take away from all this isn’t about Buffy and her pain, it is Spike’s horrified face:



A supposedly feminist show had a rape scene were the rapist was the one we were meant to sympathize with.

And this starts a trend that continues from here to the series end. Buffy’s trauma/story line is sidelined to focus on Spike. The ‘Spike deserves Buffy’ argument is an extension this, the belief that Spike, Joss Whedon and sexist fans have that Buffy’s wants are irrelevant, she needs to give her love to Spike because he made all those grand gestures* to demonstrate his love.

To paraphrase The L Word, I don’t care if Buffy made Spike a better man or what he did to earn her love. It's not Buffy’s ****ing job to be consumed and invaded and spat out so that Spike can evolve or get what he has ‘earned’.


*Him getting his soul ‘for’ her being the most cited.



(Comic panels from issue 42 of the pre-season eight comics.
Transcript from BuffyWorld.)
 

DayDreamer27

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maskedgeekgirl
Agreed 100%

And the whole "He got a soul for Buffy" is tired imo. He didn't get a soul for her. That was for him. He couldn't accept that Buffy did not love him, because it means she won't give him the time of day. She fell into the darkness with him in the midst of her depression. Then she finally regained some of herself & broke things off with him because she did, and could, NOT love him. He doesn't accept it, and tries to "make" her feel it again with the attempted rape. When she kicks him off, he finally sees her no really means no, even though he should've seen if before. So he goes to get a soul as a way of earning himself a spot in Buffy's good graces. He got the soul because he thought that's what it would take to "win" her. I.e. him getting a soul was so he could get his prize. Not for Buffy. lol

Then another argument that Buffy & Angel "tip-toed" around each other, whereas Buffy & Spike challenged each other. Not buying that. Buffy & Angel respected each other. They respected one another's boundaries and didn't want to overstep or hurt each other. They were considerate of each other. But they sure as Hell spoke their mind when they felt they needed to. I don't call that tip-toeing. Buffy & Spike didn't challenge each other. They mistreated & used each other. They had limited respect for one another, and ignored one another boundaries. We see it with Buffy in Gone, and Spike everywhere else. lol

Then another argument that given all the shagging Buffy did with Spike, Angel was clearly an afterthought that she wasn't thinking anything about. But doesn't Buffy tell Spike to his face that only one vampire ever got her hot, now he's gone and Spike is convenient? Seems like Angel is still very much on her mind. Sex with someone while depressed =/= love. Attraction =/= Love.
 
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RomanticSoul

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The argument that makes my blood boil is the one that claims that Spike ‘deserves’ Buffy’s love more than Angel because he did more to earn it.

This idea baffles me since even someone with just a basic understanding of feminism should understands why this sentiment is so gross; It treats Buffy like she is a prize that can be earned, rather than as a person with her own wants and needs.

Though I guess I shouldn’t be surprised considering how Spike treats Buffy in the show. Buffy tells him no and that she isn’t interested in him over and over and over again, yet he never respects her no.
IMO they see it that way because Spike does. Spike is their idol, fave character, the character they identify with, their self-insert. You name it. And everything Spike does he expects a reward for. Even when it's not feeding off of disaster victims. In regards to Buffy, everything he does for her is in the name of getting her, his prize. Hell you even see some of his fans get angry when no one thanks for something he does. But you never see them demand any other character get a thank you. It's exactly the same thinking that Spike has, 'if I do a, I'll expect to get b'. When he doesn't, he will twist himself into knots until something works. Hell he killed himself (by getting the soul), expecting to be rewarded for it.
 

Dora

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IMO they see it that way because Spike does. Spike is their idol, fave character, the character they identify with, their self-insert. You name it. And everything Spike does he expects a reward for. Even when it's not feeding off of disaster victims. In regards to Buffy, everything he does for her is in the name of getting her, his prize. Hell you even see some of his fans get angry when no one thanks for something he does. But you never see them demand any other character get a thank you. It's exactly the same thinking that Spike has, 'if I do a, I'll expect to get b'. When he doesn't, he will twist himself into knots until something works. Hell he killed himself (by getting the soul), expecting to be rewarded for it.

Romatic Soul
IMO they see it that way because Spike does. Spikes their idol,fave character, the Character they identify with...... your are totally correct..... but surely worst Idolization of a fictional character, is the death threats Sarah receives........
 

RachM

I'm busy. I'm brooding.
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Oh good, this thread has segued into an Anti-Spuffy tangent. I'm feel very anti-Spuffy right need and need a safe space to vent.

Will never understand how a ship built on abuse, manipulation, sexual assault and attempted rape gets so many fans or how people insist that Spike "deserved" or "earned" Buffy (as if she's some sort of prize). How do people look at that ship and see it as anything other than detrimental to Buffy? Do they not care about Buffy at all? Do they not get angry and horrified at all the abuse Spike put her through? I don't understand. Even if they ship Spuffy pre-Seeing Red, how do they watch the AR and not immediately turn on the ship? I recently read something where someone claimed the attempted rape "needed to happen" so Spike could grow, I mean yuck, that is so gross and disrespectful to Buffy's character. So, she need to be brutally assaulted and abused so a man could evolve? Yuck, yuck, yuck. That ship is so gross.

Vent over. Just needed to get it out.
 

BuffyBot22

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Oh good, this thread has segued into an Anti-Spuffy tangent. I'm feel very anti-Spuffy right need and need a safe space to vent.

Will never understand how a ship built on abuse, manipulation, sexual assault and attempted rape gets so many fans or how people insist that Spike "deserved" or "earned" Buffy (as if she's some sort of prize). How do people look at that ship and see it as anything other than detrimental to Buffy? Do they not care about Buffy at all? Do they not get angry and horrified at all the abuse Spike put her through? I don't understand. Even if they ship Spuffy pre-Seeing Red, how do they watch the AR and not immediately turn on the ship? I recently read something where someone claimed the attempted rape "needed to happen" so Spike could grow, I mean yuck, that is so gross and disrespectful to Buffy's character. So, she need to be brutally assaulted and abused so a man could evolve? Yuck, yuck, yuck. That ship is so gross.

Vent over. Just needed to get it out.

I will never understand why toxic ships like Spuffy & Delena are so beloved by fans while healthy relationships like Bangel and Stelena get left in the dirt because they are "boring"
I do not get the attraction to a ship in which my heroine is being treated like dirt and/or turned into a completely different character (usually a much worse character, bc gotta make her worse to make the ship even remotely possible).
 
badsister
badsister
it's called : eating broken glass

DayDreamer27

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I will never understand why toxic ships like Spuffy & Delena are so beloved by fans while healthy relationships like Bangel and Stelena get left in the dirt because they are "boring"
I do not get the attraction to a ship in which my heroine is being treated like dirt and/or turned into a completely different character (usually a much worse character, bc gotta make her worse to make the ship even remotely possible).
Sadly, that's just the world we live in these days. If there's no "drama", then it's written off as boring. That's what it takes to get anything out of people

The editor of the comics I read, Jordan D. White outright says that stable couples are boring and don't make good stories, and the only times he's seen them work is in sitcoms. So many people who hate dysfunctional ships are out of luck because the only relationships our favorite characters get to have is abusive ones. One of my favorites had a recent fun relationship that could've been very compelling, cut short & ignored with no closure. And I am just waiting for them to drag him back to his ex, who uses him, sells him out whenever it's convenient, and shot him in the head at one point. Yet he still keeps taking orders from her, and getting jealous because she cuckolds him.

I love stable ships that have their flaws like any ship.
I like Bangel or Briley. Even her brief relationship with Scott was ok. But Spuffy was the downfall of the show for me. lol
 

RachM

I'm busy. I'm brooding.
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The thing is, there's a difference between a "dramatic" pairing and an abusive/toxic pairing. I would class Bangel as dramatic but it never got abusive. Spuffy is just full of abuse and that's what grosses me out about the ship. It's then made worse by the fact that the show not only condones the abuse, it puts the onus on Buffy to make Spike a better man and forces her to forgive and coddle him, completely ignoring her own trauma. And worse yet? Certain parts of the fandom just eat this up. I don't get it.
 
badsister
badsister
is it ok to enjoy the story without shipping it and understanding that it's wrong? i mean like i love C&P even though you know killing people is not cool lmao. Idk. I saw a lesson in it. Men ain't worth sh*T

RomanticSoul

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I recently read something where someone claimed the attempted rape "needed to happen" so Spike could grow, I mean yuck, that is so gross and disrespectful to Buffy's character. So, she need to be brutally assaulted and abused so a man could evolve? Yuck, yuck, yuck. That ship is so gross.
You've only read that recently? It's been said plenty of times over the last almost 2 decades. Hell it's been said on this board quite a few times. It basically comes down to: Spike was delusional (thinking he was one way as a character) and for him to break out of this delusion, something drastic had to happen. The AR shows Spike he isn't who he thinks he is, so he goes off to change that.'

The problem with that whole thing...it's the live TV version of a comic book term, FRIDGED female character. Buffy had to be sacrificed as a character for 2 Seasons (6/7) for Spike's character to grow and change. And since Buffy is the MAIN protagonist (and not Spike despite what a lot of his fans think), or so at least the show title tells me, it's unacceptable.

The editor of the comics I read, Jordan D. White outright says that stable couples are boring and don't make good stories, and the only times he's seen them work is in sitcoms.
I always saw this as a bunch of utter BS. Any writer who spouts this nonsense is only admitting to one thing, they have no talent. Stable relationships are not boring to watch, most of the time they are boring or unsuccessful because the writers have no idea how to keep the relationship interesting.
 

RachM

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Well, the thread had already segued into the latter, so I felt safe venting here. Threads tend to take on lives of their own, segues and tangents are to be expected.
 

MarieVampSlayer

Bloody hell, Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers..
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Sineya
The argument that makes my blood boil is the one that claims that Spike ‘deserves’ Buffy’s love more than Angel because he did more to earn it

Yeah I do have a problem with this too. Love is not something that we earn and Buffy is not a prize for theses men to win. I also think this is unfair for Buffy as she is excluded from the decision if we believe she should be with Spike because he fought for her. What about her? Doesn't Buffy deserve to have a boyfriend that she desired and helps her become a better version of herself. I understand Spuffy from Spike point of view but for Buffy...I still think she loves Angel more in her heart!
 

DayDreamer27

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A recent argument on youtube that I am going on on now.

THEM: naaah angel always crawls back to buffy squirming and making her feel guilty and shit. jesus dude move on. .. spike is a way more likable and better character imo. he never felt like "only a love interest" which is the vibe I got from angel/angelus.


ME: The same Spike who
* stalked Buffy,
* forced himself on her.
* Made gross innuendos.
* Tried to rape her
* Talks down on her, and makes her hate herself by calling saying she came back wrong & didn't belong with her friends?
* Guilt trips her after he tried to rape her? * Made creepy shrines of her?
* Stole her clothes? * Had a sex slave robot made of her?
* Kidnapped her and chained her in his crypt * Used her as a trophy to stick to every other guy who came before him -Xander, Riley, and Angel


Are we talking about this Spike? The same Spike who even Buffy had no respect for, and was just ****ing because he was convenient, which she even told him? The one who abused Buffy during her depression & harassed her every other time. The Spike who cared more about what he wanted than Buffy? Angel at least saw Buffy as a person & love. Spike saw her as a prized possession that he was entitled to, just because he wanted her. Almost raping Buffy wasn't enough to get him to stay away. He had to try getting a soul to win his prize, then make a grand show of it & guilt trip her for using him, despite his violations of her.

THEM: you’re very conveniently ignoring that this was Spike BEFORE a soul, which was still 100x better than a soulless Angel aka. Angelus. But go off I guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ And don’t try acting like Buffy didn’t use him and treat him like dirt too. Spike and Buffy grew as people together and matured. Angel and Buffy was a childlike romance where none of them seemed to fight for their relationship – it was immature and naive. Not saying it wasn’t an important part in Buffy’s life but it’s obvious that a relationship where both parts are willing to work out their issues and change for each other is gonna last longer than one that is static. With that said you can have your opinion, I can have mine.

ME: Something you conveniently ignore. Spike didn't ask to be chipped. We got a chipped Spike hanging around Buffy. We don't know how a chipped Angelus would've been. That chip making him a non threat is the only reason he didn't kill Willow in her dorm. Had he not been chipped, he'd have tried to kill Buffy or her friends, and she'd have staked him w/o question. So just because Spike was put on a leash and had the chance to hang around Buffy doesn't make him any better than Angelus. Angelus could always be the monster he wanted. Spike lost the chance post-chip. Buffy & Angel had nothing to work out. The only reason their relationship couldn't work was due to his curse. And there's no fighting that. Angel & Buffy tried being together despite the limits that relationship had, and it lasted 3 years before Angel tried to leave & give her a normal life. If you love something, set it free. Sometimes you have to admit that just because you're in love doesn't mean you are supposed to be together, and that's more mature than the toxic Ross x Rachel constantly fighting off & on, only happy when having sex relationship Spuffy was. Buffy had an intimacy with Angel that he didn't have with anyone after him. But Hell even her & Riley had more respect & intimacy with each other than she ever had with Spike - with or without a soul.


Anyone else wanting to weigh in on debate, it's the newest comment in this vid.
 
Miss Muffet
Miss Muffet
I love how you paraphrased the annoying comments with bad sentence structure :D

Mrs Gordo

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Black Thorn
Youtube comments are the worst. Anyway, these are the same tired anti-bangel arguments.

Angelus sucks!

Cool, I don't ship Buffy with Angelus.

Spike and Buffy are mature whereas Buffy and Angel are immature children.

Cool, totally immature to make the decision to kill the love of your life, help them through trauma when they return, work through a suicide, to mutually respect and support each other, to actually enjoy being around each other. Sign me up for the immature childish thing - thanks!

Angel doesn't stay and work on things and Spike does.

Angel.
Has.
A.
Curse.

Spike doesn't.
 
Antho
Antho
Sign me up too

Ann

Nee chatwuann Bangel
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R
Youtube comments are the worst. Anyway, these are the same tired anti-bangel arguments.

Angelus sucks!

Cool, I don't ship Buffy with Angelus.

Spike and Buffy are mature whereas Buffy and Angel are immature children.

Cool, totally immature to make the decision to kill the love of your life, help them through trauma when they return, work through a suicide, to mutually respect and support each other, to actually enjoy being around each other. Sign me up for the immature childish thing - thanks!

Angel doesn't stay and work on things and Spike does.

Angel.
Has.
A.
Curse.

Spike doesn't.

I'll take Bangel, for the mature relationship it is, over Spuffy any day of the week.
 

Antho

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Youtube comments are the worst. Anyway, these are the same tired anti-bangel arguments.
That's why I prefer to be on a forum like BB. There are rules ! Youtube/Twitter are social networks full of person who are there to dump their hate. I used to find that funny, how can they hate with so passion a fictional character ? but now it's just boring and weird ^^
 

EarthLogic

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Black Thorn
One that really annoys me is 'Angel can't stand being weaker than Buffy'.

Where in the course of either show is that ever shown?! He has never once complained about Buffy saving him or being stronger. In IWRY he actually says 'you know that's not it' when Buffy suggests he just wants to be superhero. He makes it clear that his concern is his inability to protect anyone. Actually in that argument her superior strength isn't even an issue!

Interpretations are one thing but with this people seem to be seeing things that are just not there.
 

Spanky

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One that really annoys me is 'Angel can't stand being weaker than Buffy'.
I believe that's true. But I would go beyond just Buffy and say weaker period. I think it chaps his ass when someone is viewed as stronger than he.
 
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