As a Bangel, how do you feel about the inevitable Spuffy ILY?

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I'm not talking about the first time they ever see each other, I'm talking about moments like the end of "Reptile Boy."
 
Taaroko said:
I'm not talking about the first time they ever see each other, I'm talking about moments like the end of "Reptile Boy."
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Oh. I don't remember that episode. I mean, I remember the phallic snake and the don't drink if you are underage message, but I can't remember Angel being in the episode at all.
 
Mylie said:
I read the comics and that's pretty much how I read the couple. Spike would never ever leave Buffy and comics Buffy needs someone she knows worships her and would never ever leave her. So really, I can't imagine the ship ending (unless by death) because neither of them would be able to break up with the other. At this point, Spuffy is safe at the detriment of both characters.
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Well - this is a sad commentary on Buffy's character and emotional state - Don't want to get into a BA vs BS - not my intent but I do think this Buffy from your description would be living a very sad existence -
 
Taaroko said:
...So it's a relationship between abandonment issues and spineless devotion?
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Tbh any relationship Buffy is in, no matter who it's with, is likely to be coloured by her abandonment issues because that's something that has never been fully addressed or worked through.
 
MarlieTheSlayer said:
I am so happy that I finally found people who also think Spike's treatment of Wood was disgusting. It doesn't matter how many times I rewatch the episode, Buffy siding with him just makes me so 😡😡😡
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One of the major flaw of season 7 is basically Buffy not being herself. I don’t recognize her and the way she always is on Spike’s side is unbelievable for me. She is unconscious.
 
EarthLogic said:
Tbh any relationship Buffy is in, no matter who it's with, is likely to be coloured by her abandonment issues because that's something that has never been fully addressed or worked through.
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Christos Gage implies that he has dealt with that this season. Or at least that is my reading when he says:

"But after her death and resurrection, her mother's death, the problems with her father, and other things, I feel like Buffy was in a bad place in that she was hurt and gun-shy and afraid to get close to anyone (romantically or otherwise) or let them get close to her, even if she wasn't 100% aware of it. And I think she's moved past that now. " - This is from his Q/A.

Although I'm not quite sure how Buffy got there myself, yet.
 
VisionGirl
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Taaroko said:
...So it's a relationship between abandonment issues and spineless devotion?
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That's how Spuffy came about in the comics. Spike wanted to move on which would have meant 'leaving' Buffy in one form or another. Buffy overhears this and jumps him. Isn't it romantic when relationships start like this? And Spike will always be nothing but a dog in her lap. Good for her that Spike has no spine and didn't follow through on moving on. But hey people like little puppy dog Spiky and he deserves the girl after all that dog like devotion.

dcai0830 said:
Christos Gage implies that he has dealt with that this season. Or at least that is my reading when he says:

"But after her death and resurrection, her mother's death, the problems with her father, and other things, I feel like Buffy was in a bad place in that she was hurt and gun-shy and afraid to get close to anyone (romantically or otherwise) or let them get close to her, even if she wasn't 100% aware of it. And I think she's moved past that now. " - This is from his Q/A.
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Except Angel. If Forever and EoD/Chosen showed us anything, and the unseen meeting would have shown us as well, is that Buffy never had any issues letting Angel get close. Even if they aren't romantically linked or it has been years. Does this guy know anything about the damn shows? He seems to have Spuffy shipper googles on which always seem to cause selective memory.
 
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RomanticSoul said:
Except Angel. If Forever and EoD/Chosen showed us anything, and the unseen meeting would have shown us as well, is that Buffy never had any issues letting Angel get close. Even if they aren't romantically linked or it has been years. Does this guy know anything about the damn shows?
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Yeah I had a similar reaction and I posted something similar to this on another board. I agree with Christos that Buffy has been closed off but I would argue that goes back further before her resurrection and into Season 4, post Angel (maybe post Parker?). She is very guarded with Riley and then after Riley it gets much worse BUT - and this is why I wish I had like 30 minutes to just sit with Mr. Gage - I don't think he is taking into account Buffy's interactions with Angel during this time as you say @RomanticSoul - Forever/Chosen and who knows how the off screen Season 6 meeting went. So I wish I could show these clips to Christos and get his feedback at least on the read.

Now I will say that a LOT has happened in the comics and Twilight really did a number of damage on Buffy and Angel's relationship. So perhaps the Twilight arc was the final nail on the coffin that made Buffy unable to love or be loved by Angel because that love (once again) brought about so much pain and destruction. And yes I know, I know Twilight was a horrible arc but if we are talking the comics as much as I would like they cannot be ignored.
 
dcai0830 said:
She is very guarded with Riley and then after Riley it gets much worse BUT - and this is why I wish I had like 30 minutes to just sit with Mr. Gage - I don't think he is taking into account Buffy's interactions with Angel during this time as you say @RomanticSoul - Forever/Chosen and who knows how the off screen Season 6 meeting went. So I wish I could show these clips to Christos and get his feedback at least on the read.
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But even if he did, what can Christos really do about it in his writing? He has to follow the overall story that's been planned for the season doesn't he? So even if the comic did acknowledge that Buffy had opened up to Angel at certain points, the storyline still had to end where it did. So bringing up the Angel exception while having a Spuffy season-ending in mind would 1)make Buffy seemed confused and unsure yet again and 2) would ultimately go nowhere because the finale was about Spuffy.
 
EarthLogic said:
But even if he did, what can Christos really do about it in his writing? He has to follow the overall story that's been planned for the season doesn't he? So even if the comic did acknowledge that Buffy had opened up to Angel at certain points, the storyline still had to end where it did. So bringing up the Angel exception while having a Spuffy season-ending in mind would 1)make Buffy seemed confused and unsure yet again and 2) would ultimately go nowhere because the finale was about Spuffy.
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I'm certainly not making a case for the fact that the final panel should abruptly acknowledge this "Angel exception." But it does make me wonder how much Christos knows the Buffy back story, the Buffy character. Sometimes I feel like they know the show less than I do (see for example Angel calling Buffy "Buff" in Twilight- which was not Christos but I use that as an example). But even more broadly, I think the argument can be made that the Season finale didn't have to be about her "learning to love and be loved" with regards to her relationship with Spike. It could just as easily been about her relationship with friends or family. It could just as easily been about her acknowledging this "Angel exception" and pondering what that means with regards to her current feelings for Angel.
 
dcai0830 said:
Now I will say that a LOT has happened in the comics and Twilight really did a number of damage on Buffy and Angel's relationship. So perhaps the Twilight arc was the final nail on the coffin that made Buffy unable to love or be loved by Angel because that love (once again) brought about so much pain and destruction. And yes I know, I know Twilight was a horrible arc but if we are talking the comics as much as I would like they cannot be ignored.
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Well yeah, Twilight was the final nail IMO. And you never know if someone didn't mess with that book once the rules changed, they just didn't tell us. Because like when Dawn was introduced, it's the perfect 'a wizard did it' excuse for whatever crazy story they might do.

EarthLogic said:
But even if he did, what can Christos really do about it in his writing? He has to follow the overall story that's been planned for the season doesn't he? So even if the comic did acknowledge that Buffy had opened up to Angel at certain points, the storyline still had to end where it did. So bringing up the Angel exception while having a Spuffy season-ending in mind would 1)make Buffy seemed confused and unsure yet again and 2) would ultimately go nowhere because the finale was about Spuffy.
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It's not about that. It's how Cage has worded it. He went all the way back to Joyce's death and that was S5. Which is BS in so many ways. First of all it clearly shows he doesn't know Buffy the character, much less the show's canon.

Buffy has been this way since freaking S1. She was never share girl, she was reluctant to let people get close to her. It got worse and worse over the years due to the things that happened to her, yes. But that has always been Buffy, it didn't suddenly start in S5. And the one person that Buffy opened up to and allowed herself to be vulnerable with, was Angel. Every single time even post break up. That's canon and anyone who has seen the show should know this.

Btw is it just related to Spike...so romance? Is she closer with Giles/Dawn/Xander/Willow this Season than she was in previous ones? Because if it's just Spike then Gage's comment is even more BS than it already is.
 
dcai0830 said:
But it does make me wonder how much Christos knows the Buffy back story, the Buffy character.
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RomanticSoul said:
It's not about that. It's how Cage has worded it. He went all the way back to Joyce's death and that was S5. Which is BS in so many ways. First of all it clearly shows he doesn't know Buffy the character, much less the show's canon.
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Ok I get your issue now. I do agree, but I guess I've just become used to the comic writers knowing next to nothing about the show by now, so it doesn't even register that much with me anymore. I wasted too much energy fuming over it with Brad Meltzer's arc. It's old news and I think something you kind of just have to accept if you want to get any enjoyment out of the comics. It's a big ask, and yes it's really unfair to have fans simply have to accept these Buffy-inexperienced writers, but I guess that's the choice you guys have. 🙁
 
You know who’s fault this is right?? Giles. Angel told Giles to tell him when it was ok to go see Buffy and he didn’t tell him so he stayed away. So thanks Giles. 😛

(I’m re-reading A/F s9)
 
EarthLogic said:
I do agree, but I guess I've just become used to the comic writers knowing next to nothing about the show by now, so it doesn't even register that much with me anymore. I wasted too much energy fuming over it with Brad Meltzer's arc. It's old news and I think something you kind of just have to accept if you want to get any enjoyment out of the comics. It's a big ask, and yes it's really unfair to have fans simply have to accept these Buffy-inexperienced writers, but I guess that's the choice you guys have. 🙁
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Which begs the question...why am I supposed to see the comics as canon then? Why should anyone?
 
NileQT87 said:
All of comic!Buffy is pod!Buffy. That hasn't changed.

It's lightweight Spuffy fanfiction with nothing but happily ever afters. They don't even try to hide it. Nothing else happens to the characters except to service that. They'll probably marry them, despite the fact that everything Angel said to Buffy in Bad Eggs and The Prom applies to them, too. And they won't ever even discuss it. Because they never have tragic twists of fate or even difficulties thrown at them now.

The Angel comic is treated like an afterthought now and it certainly has never featured much of Angel Investigations beyond one arc. I miss IDW. That was when Angel mattered. The worst thing to ever happen was when Dark Horse got the Angel rights, only to piss on him, his team and the fanbase; essentially, to eliminate the competition and AtS as a viable part of the franchise.
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Yes to all of this! And even Spike's character too. Whoever said earlier that Spike's character is simply as an adjunct to Spuffy. In the IDW comics he had his own arcs, his own adventures and friendships. They showed him grappling with his soul, furthering what we got to see in Angel season 5. Both Angel and Spike have suffered as characters since being brought back over to Dark Horse. Whedon himself once said that he didn't relate to Angel, and I think that's true of Spike when he's out of the realm of being strictly a villain or Buffy's lover/chewtoy. I love the IDW comics so it makes me so so angry and sad to see this happening. *caveat that I have not read this current season yet*
 
dcai0830 said:
It’s not Joss writing it’s Christos Gage but I assume in between takes directing Justice League, or writing Super Girl Joss checks his texts and approves this stuff. This just doesn’t feel anything at all like Joss to me. Not necessarily the Spuffy stuff but just the story the casual atmosphere, the lack of gut wrenching story twists. So yeah idk.
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OK so, I loved season 8. [with the exception of Twilight & Angel's character assassination] I loved the big, huge, comic-book-y plot. Everyone else HATED it with a firey passion. But there was all the typical Whedon stuff too. The language, the pop culture references, the tension, references to the show, Fray gorramitt!!! I really see the subsequent seasons as a big FU from Joss et al to the fans for complaining so much. I'm sure I'm wrong but MAN did people complain! 😀
 
RomanticSoul said:
I don't really care in the end. Dawnverse!Buffy has never been my Buffy. So she and Spike can do whatever they want, doesn't matter. Long as Gage stays the hell away from Shanshu (that belongs to freaking Angel), all is good.
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I'm so confused about the state of Shanshu after the IDW comics. It's been quite awhile since I'm read them.
 
Taake said:
Guess it's just the impression I get from here, social media, Buzzfeed, EW and whatever else all the entertainment sites are called. People still talk about Buffy and worship it, and often it seems to be in connection with it as some kind of feminist ideal that paved the way for future female-centric shows and movies.
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Well, in the discussions I've been a part of, we've talked about how the public concept of feminism has grown and changed, become more intersectional for example, since the '90s when Buffy and Whedon were at the top of the feminist mountain. Whedon obviously hasn't grown with it. Looking back at the show and his other shows, they clearly weren't as feminist and progressive as he, and perhaps we, thought at the time. There are much better examples now, but I still think Buffy would punch him in the mouth if the things Kai Cole said are true.
 
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