Thanks for the reply
🙂 and sorry for my late reply.
Kean said:
We are souls. We have bodies. In the same vein as this I believe vampires are demons and they have bodies.
I'm not sure if you remember my theories on vampires and souls but my main theories were:
Soul= spirit (theory 1)
Soul= conscience (theory 2)
You seem to be a theory 1 supporter. Under this theory Angel absolutely cannot be blamed under any circumstances for the crimes of Angelus. Perhaps Angel's guilt is due to psychological promiximity to the deeds themselves.
For Spike though it also means that he can't boast getting a soul because the person speaking was shoved back into his body against his will, just like Angel. From a narrative perspective, however, it doesn't feel intuitive.
With this understanding it makes Angel's acceptance and embracing of guilt for what the demon did in his body, highly illogical. And I think this is something he realises as the shows go on, particularly on his own show.
I have to admit, Angel is wonderfully inconsistent. It's me, it's not me etc, seriously dude you seem to have a serious case of DID.
If I was to try and explain why Angel so willingly and completely embraces this guilt I would suggest that part of him enjoyed the destruction that Angelus dealt out. As we have seen from the flashbacks of his human life, he wasn't a a very empowered young man. I suspect the fame and the fear Angelus attracted made him feel powerful. Strong. Better. Triumphant. In fact, he says something similar to this to Faith in Consequences, "But I know what it's like to take a life. To feel a future, a world of possibilities, snuffed out by your own hand. I know the power in it. The exhilaration. It was like a drug for me." and of course there is his words to Darla after he has killed his father:
I posited something quite similar on another forum. Angelus, even under theory 1 is an extention of Liam. In short Angelus personality and darkness didn't come ex nihilo, part of it was innate in Liam and still is in Angel, but as Cordy said, it's not the only thing...
Even more than that, I think part of him believes that he was capable of that death and destruction of life even as a human man. In a lot of ways I feel Angel feels guilt for what he could have done; rather than what Angelus actually did.
Well in some respects he's capable of it as Angel, but with the same level of sadism and glee that Angelus does it, but it's just like Angel to blame himself for so much.
As for redemption and how Angel defines it, I feel he has a very Catholic view of it, in the sense that there is hope for everyone who is willing to repent and commit to good deeds. Perhaps it strikes me this way because I am Catholic and believe in that ethos, but I do believe that is the thought process Angel is working under. The entire way in which he has gone about his mission in L.A. suggests that to me, as too does the importance he has placed on Shanshu. That is redemption to Angel. That is forgiveness. That is salvation. And like the good Catholic lad that he is, he does not believe he is worthy of that forgiveness, but he continues to hope and work for it nonetheless.
I think Angel both internalizes and rejects the idea. He likes the idea of some kind of external validation but he doubt it really exists. He's the perfect existential hero in that respect. He wants to hear yes but the world says no. He wants to do good but he often fails. For me however intentions are important. If Angel is willing to try, I suppose I can see what he's willing to do.
In believe in forgiveness and redemption so I do believe it is possible for Angel. How we handle what he has done really depends on why he did it. I think the story has done a terrible job of making clear how he came about these choices.
Every mistake Angel made on the televised series made sense to me, in terms of his character. Even if it was wrong, it was understandable, but this??!!!!! Angel has been cynical about prophecies in the last series and after everything he's seen, it seems that Joss wants to paint him as moron!
In one sense I view Angel as a soldier, given orders by his superiors (TPB) and he carrried them out. And there is an element of that in the story of Twilight, but it isn't a satisfying reason for me because I know Angel knows better than that.
Exactly. People keep using the PTB argument but since when has Angel been a mindless slave to the higher powers. Under that theory Spike could have been Twilight seen as he was able to duped by Lindsay.
However, what I also know is that he was told by a very trusted source that the world would literally go to Hell, worse than is imaginable, if he didn't become Twilight. It is yet to be seen if that is the case. But that does not make his hands an less red with blood, or his character any less questioned.
I'm still little confused. It makes me little frustrated because I'm not sure how much Angel knew and when he knew it. I'll have to read again but did Angel know all along that the world would be destroyed and Twilight would come about creating a new world or did learn that along the course of the plan. Understanding this is somewhat important in terms of how much we blame Angel.
Ultimately, I believe Angel to be a good man who has lost his way and made an epically poor decision, or even worse was forced into doing horrific things "for the
greater good".
Well if he was being too trusting then he's definitely redeemable in my eyes as long as he questions things more and shares information with other people.
And this in turn substantiates my earlier suggestion that Angel felt guilt for Angelus' actions because he knew he was capable of such things too.
In any case I believe redemption is possible for him, simply because I believe in redemption itself.
I'm one of those people who believes these things are self defined. If people don't forgive him, then they don't forgive him. I think Angel is sort of person who can help even if the world hates him, it's part of who he is.
