Bangel vs. Spuffy Round 2

[StarSlayer]

Round 1: The winner is.................Spuffy LOL :biggrin3:

All right, do I have your attention now? Since our last thread reached its limit and the debate is never-ending, I'd thought I'd start another one. We share our thoughts on which ship we think is better, why we ship our chosen ship (or both), and why we don't ship the other ship, or neither. So, post away, but remember to keep it civil 🙂

 

[zobothehobo]

ok, I have something to add to the discussion. This isn't so much of a "who's better" as much as it is "compare and contrast." I'm doing a paper in English examining the differences between Angel and Spike and one of the things I'm talking about in the paper is the way they loved Buffy. What do you think about the differences in the ways they loved Buffy? And likewise, the way she loved them?

 

[brinkster130]

Yes, I like your thinking zobothehobo...I dont think it should focus so much on who is better...but how they are different.

What do you think about the differences in the ways they loved Buffy? And likewise, the way she loved them?

IMO:

Angel loved Buffy and wanted nothing but the best for her, even if that meant she wasn't going to be with him; hence him leaving her. Even though he did leave her that love was never gone, he was always there if she needed anything and was aware of the major happenings in her life.

Spike loved Buffy and wanted to be the best for her, so he went and got a soul and tried to be a what he thought a man worthy of her should be. Spike stood by Buffy's side no matter what the consequences were.

I think that Buffy's love for Angel taught her that the world isn't always black and white and that redemption and forgiveness are possible; because of her experience with Angel Buffy was able to love Spike.

 

[StarSlayer]

ok, I have something to add to the discussion. This isn't so much of a "who's better" as much as it is "compare and contrast." I'm doing a paper in English examining the differences between Angel and Spike and one of the things I'm talking about in the paper is the way they loved Buffy. What do you think about the differences in the ways they loved Buffy? And likewise, the way she loved them?

That sounds like a fun paper to write 😀 Here's my thoughts:

I do believe both Angel and Buffy had a pure love for each other, partly because it was both their first real love. Sure, one can argue that Angel loved Darla, but I think it wasn't an innocent love as it was with Buffy. Angel wanted to be a better man when he fell in love with Buffy. He wanted to protect her, watch over her, because he felt she was alone when it came to fighting vampires and demons. And he didn't want her to be alone (or at least feel alone) as he did when he got his soul back. In that sense, I think Angel loved Buffy for the woman/slayer she could become. He saw her goodness and love (he saw her heart), and saw her potential to use both of them.

Likewise, Buffy saw goodness in Angel, partly because he had a soul. For her, having a soul meant there was still some humanity left in a vampire. They weren't entirely a demon. Plus, I do believe Buffy and Angel will always love each other, not so much in a deep romantic way as they use to, but they were each other's first loves and it was a pure, innocent one (despite the hard times).

With Spike, on the other hand, I believe he loved Buffy for the woman/slayer she already is. He saw her kindness, her strength, the best and the worst of her, and still loved her for everything that she was, is, and could be. Like Angel, Spike wanted to become a better man when he fell in love with Buffy. (Buffy just seems to have that affect on evil vampires, lol). However, unlike Angel, Spike didn't know how to show that he could be good. I think it was partly because he had no soul. However, although Spike was able to do good with no soul and loved Buffy, she still questioned her feelings for Spike. She knew he was capable of doing good with no soul (he watched over Dawn and fought with the Scoobies when she was dead), but I think Xander's words got to Buffy. "I never forgot what he was."

However, Spike fought that demon inside him and won. His love for Buffy not only made him want to be good, but it made him want to gain back some of his humanity, which was through his soul. And for Buffy, she grew to love Spike because of the strength, trust, loyalty, companionship, and love that he showed time and again, especially toward her. She believed he could become a better man (when he got his soul back) and loved him enough to give him that chance, despite what everyone around her was saying.

So, while they are different, there's only one ship that I like better :biggrin3:

(Yikes! I wasn't expecting to write so much 🙂)

 

[zobothehobo]

I personally feel the main difference between the two is that Angel wanted to protect Buffy by "fighting in front of her" (metaphorically of course) and Spike wanted to fight BESIDE her. Angel thought of himself in the relationship as Buffy's protector... which worked then because Buffy was young and kind of needed someone to protect her. But by the time Spuffy rolled around, she needed an ally rather than a protector. And that's what Spike gave her and how he loved her.

I also think because Spuffy started with Spike having no soul, there was a bit of Spike learning how to love. Angel I think figured out how to love Buffy pretty quickly. It took Spike a long time to figure it all out.

 

[Justme]

Well the previous thread really made me think. I used to think that Angel was the guy for the Buff but now.... I just can't get passed the dread AR I'm afraid. If that hadn't happened I would definitely lean toward Spike.... Probably.

 

[white avenger]

I do believe that both Angel and Spike love Buffy, and I certainly do see a definite difference in the way that that love is expressed.

Angel is totally protective of Buffy. He would not hesitate to take the figurative bullet in her stead, and we have seen that he is willing to give up any chance for happiness with her if he thinks that by doing so he can make her life better. We saw that at the end of Season 3 when, accepting the fact that they could never be together without endangering Buffy, he moved away to LA. We saw it again in "I Will Remember You," when he gave up his mortality in order to protect her (or, more accurately, so that SHE wouldn't die protecting HIM). Angel is the one who can always be counted on, in Buffy's darkest hours, such as when Joyce died, to hold her, dry her tears, and promise to do so for as long as she needs him. I have no doubt that, if Buffy and her people did, in fact, go to Los Angeles after Season 7 ended, he did the exact same thing there.

Spike, on the other hand, while just as protective of Buffy and just as willing to sacrifice himself for her, but, unlike Angel, he refuses to accept things as they are and live with what fate dictates. Instead, he finds a way to change things in order to make them better. Instead of leaving Sunnydale because his being there is potentially harmful to Buffy, he leaves to find a way to become a better man, someone worthy of her love and able to help her in her fight. Instead of drying her tears and hold her until things got better, Spike is the one who tells Buffy that he is there to comfort her however he can, but in the meantime there are demons lurking in the shadows, and she needs to get off of her grieving ass and get back on the job.

Angel holds Buffy's hand, while Spike covers her back. That's the difference between the two as I see it, though I'm sure that others will disagree. Both men love Buffy, either one would die for her with no hesitation, and think himself lucky for the privilege of doing so.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Somehow I can't connect Spuffy and winner.. or anything that is a positive work in the dictionary.. maybe I could find something under s.. that is smelly.

 

[Misty]

Will this debate ever end ?????

Anyway, I'm still deciding which ship is better. And like I've mentioned before, I do believe that both Angel and Spike loved Buffy, but in my opinion Buffy loved Angel more and Spike loved Buffy more. But I do feel like Buffy and Spike have been through so much together and they knew eachother alittle more. But honestly, I'm kind of sick of this debate and people need to talk about Cander more 😛!

 

[StarSlayer]

I just can't get passed the dread AR I'm afraid. If that hadn't happened I would definitely lean toward Spike.... Probably.

Trust me. I've had my issues with this scene too and I understand how hard it can be to watch. I rarely watch it. Yet, after discussing this scene in other threads on the BB, I don't call it the AR scene anymore because I honestly question whether it was an "attempt." It's way to complex to get into again, but basically, I now call it what the actors and writers call it...the bathroom scene. Nonetheless, I get why some people don't ship Spuffy if this scene affects them so. For me, I just know that a lot of things that followed this scene and well into s7 were about forgiveness, trust, and love from both Buffy and Spike.

Somehow I can't connect Spuffy and winner.. or anything that is a positive work in the dictionary.. maybe I could find something under s.. that is smelly.

Lol, or you might want to check special, spectacular, or super 😉

Will this debate ever end ?????

Hell no 😀 Where's the fun if it does?

But in my opinion Buffy loved Angel more and Spike loved Buffy more.

Unless Buffy flat out says, "I love Angel more than Spike," (and her line in "Selfless" does not qualify), no one can convince me that Buffy loved Angel more 🙂

But honestly, I'm kind of sick of this debate and people need to talk about Cander more 😛!

Lol, I'm more of a Cangel and Xanya fan, but I did like Cander for what they were worth 🙂

 

[white avenger]

Well the previous thread really made me think. I used to think that Angel was the guy for the Buff but now.... I just can't get passed the dread AR I'm afraid. If that hadn't happened I would definitely lean toward Spike.... Probably.

I am in no way singling you out when I say this, but that statement has never really made a whole lot of sense to me, no matter how many times that I hear it. We are expected to forgive Angel for everything that he has ever done when he has no soul, we even have a separate name for him when he is in that condition, and yet we can't give Spike the same consideration. If Angel can have an "evil twin brother" named Angelus on whom we can heap all of the bad things that he does, why can't we give Spike the same consideration? All of the good things that Spike did before he regained his soul, the pain that he endured rather than betray Buffy and her family, the times when he covered Buffy's back in battle, his fulfillment to a dead girl whom he had every reason to believe that he would never see again in this world or any other, even the assisting in literally saving the world, are all ignored because of a single mistake that Buffy, herself, forgave and put behind her. No "evil twin brother" for Spike. Every crime, sin, and act of mayhem that he has ever perpetrated since clawing his way out of the grave, is piled on him and never forgotten.

At the very best, the good things that soulless Spike has ever done are simply brushed aside with the excuse, "Well, yes, he did do all of those things, but he only did them to impress Buffy," or, as Angel so eloquently put it, "to get in a girl's pants." Okay, granted, Spike was motivated by the need or desire to please and impress Buffy, at least at first, but I will submit to you that EVERYONE, in the beginning, does the "right" thing in order to impress someone, usually their parents, long before they ever have any real concept of good and evil, or right or wrong. And that was exactly what Spike was doing, and for that exact same reason. He wanted to please Buffy because, even without a soul, he loved her, and he wanted to earn her love in return. I somehow find it extremely hard to imagine Angel, minus soul, ever doing anything even vaguely similar to that.

So let's at least cut Spike the same slack that we do Angel. Neither man should be held responsible for anything that they did prior to regaining their soul, or both should. Level that playing field, and it might just be that Spike is a better man than Angel ever will be. Or not. But at least give the guy the simple courtesy if judging both him and Angel by the same standards.

 

[zobothehobo]

At the very best, the good things that soulless Spike has ever done are simply brushed aside with the excuse, "Well, yes, he did do all of those things, but he only did them to impress Buffy," or, as Angel so eloquently put it, "to get in a girl's pants." Okay, granted, Spike was motivated by the need or desire to please and impress Buffy, at least at first, but I will submit to you that EVERYONE, in the beginning, does the "right" thing in order to impress someone, usually their parents, long before they ever have any real concept of good and evil, or right or wrong.

Stage 3. Good Interpersonal Relationships. At this stage children--who are by now usually entering their teens--see morality as more than simple deals. They believe that people should live up to the expectations of the family and community and behave in "good" ways. Good behavior means having good motives and interpersonal feelings such as love, empathy, trust, and concern for others.

http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm

When Spike fell in love with Buffy, he started acting on Kohlberg's stage 3 of moral development. After he gets his soul, he moves on to 4 and quickly through to 5. Everyone goes through stage 3. And since there are only 5 (according to Kohlberg), he's over half way to his "full potential" of morality.

 

[CrayonBreakyMe]

Buffy&Spike&Angel

ok, I have something to add to the discussion. This isn't so much of a "who's better" as much as it is "compare and contrast." I'm doing a paper in English examining the differences between Angel and Spike and one of the things I'm talking about in the paper is the way they loved Buffy. What do you think about the differences in the ways they loved Buffy? And likewise, the way she loved them?

The way I compare the love between Buffy and Angel & Buffy and Spike is how they reacted after she died.

Spike stayed with the Scoobies and helped them out, and he protected Dawn just as he said he would. He counted the days that he was without Buffy. Spike is completely and totally in love with this woman. He even went and got a soul for her. He earned his soul, he wasn't curse with one.

Angel was sad, sure, but when is he not brooding? Don't get me wrong, when I first started watching Buffy I was all about them being together. But he turned into a monster after they had sex (not really his fault), he showed up and left whenever he pleased, she killed him, after Buffy died he never spoke about her to his crew and was okay with her dying in "Heartthrob"

I really think that it was great for him to be okay with it and to go on living and helping the helpless, but I think that Spike loved Buffy more. Spike didn't even have a soul and he fell to the ground and wept when he saw her lifeless body.

As for Buffy loving the boys: I think that Angel was her first love and there is no replacing that...
Spike: You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love 'til it kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other 'til it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains, children, it's blood -- blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.

So I do think that she does love Angel and always will, but that ship has sailed. They tried and it didn't work out.

Spike on the other hand was the only one she could talk to when she came back in season six. She said that she was using Spike, that he was just "convenient" and he was fully aware of it. But the fact that she trusted him with her life, and she stood up for him to all the other Scoobies, and that they literally slept in each others arms and spent what they thought was their last night on earth together...[[I'm totally a Spuffy fan...]] Buffy may not have loved Spike the same way she loved Angel, but when are two loves ever the same? There was definite love there, even if it wasn't completely healthy or fully developed. PLUS-saving the world is the last thing she sees Spike do? Kindof amazing.

Sorry this was so long! And I didn't read all of the other posts so I could very well be repeating everything everyone else has been saying. But this was fun and I feel so happy and I'm going to watch an episode of Buffy before the night is over. =]

 

[white avenger]

Call it the "AR scene," the "bathroom scene," or the "Seeing Red scene." it took me awhile to come to the understanding that, as unpleasant as it was to watch (and, if we can believe James, to act. He said that he was physically ill after doing it) that was probably one of the most important points in the development of Spike as a character. The look of astonishment and, I believe, horror at the end, when he suddenly realized what he had just attempted to do marked the moment when Spike actually realized that what he had said in "The Gift" was actually true. "I know you'll never love me. I know that I'm a monster. But you treat me like a man..." Buffy HAD treated him like a man, and a man who she trusted, confided in, and actually believed in. And now, that man who she trusted was a monster again. And that monster had just tried to hurt the woman he loved. That was the moment that Spike made the decision, unthinkable as it might have seemed up until that moment, that he no longer wanted to be that monster. To become the man actually deserving of Buffy's trust and love. That's why that scene, horrible and degrading as it was, the single most important for Spike that we had seen up until then. It was the moment when Spike took the first step in killing his monster.

 

[ashsummers]

Disclaimer
Before I begin let me just say I have no doubt there are loads of Spuffy fans who have been watching Buffy since it aired so please don't jump down my throat about this. I just noticed a pattern when reading the 'What attracted you to Buffy?' thread and thought it was interesting. So if you accept that. Please read on

You guys got me thinking why no matter how many good Spuffy hypothesises I hear, no matter how many times you demonstrate that Spike loved Buffy so much and all logical reasons as to why they might work better than Bangel. Regardless of these I'm still standing firmly on ship Bangel with no view of the dread pirate ship Spuffy in my sights and not the slightest cause for sea sick....so i pondered.

Subsequently reading the 'what attracted you to Buffy' thread I gained some clarity and realised when you started watching BTVS seems to play a factor in determining the side you fall on in the whole Spuffy-Bangel debate. Not the only factor, or indeed even necessarily an important factor but certainly a factor.

I think alot of the Bangel loyalty comes from fans who grew up with Buffy and Angel together so then when Spike and Buffy hooked up after so many years it was like huh?

For those of you Spuffy fans who didn't watch BTVS when it aired but instead on Boxset. Once again I acknowledge that's not all of you but to those who it is. Can you understand how watching Buffy and Angel together for nearly four years makes a huge difference (in terms of attachment)? To watching the expanse of their relationship in a few short days?

Now I'm not saying had you watched it from when it aired you would feel any different, you most likely wouldn't. But what I am trying to demonstrate is where alot of the Bangel support comes from and why so many of your arguments will fall on deaf ears from a Bangel point of view. Loyalty and nostalgia are not only the prevailing undercurrent of this debate they are for many the end of it.

Now don't mistake me here, I'm not trying to say loyalty is the main reason ship Bangel flies a proud mast, Buffy and Angel's love is the main reason. But loyalty is a huge part of why Bangel supporters can't see past the stern of the Bangel ship to the Spuffy ship that is lapping behind (at least in our eyes that is 😉 ) and why they never will.

 

[zobothehobo]

Disclaimer
Before I begin let me just say I have no doubt there are loads of Spuffy fans who have been watching Buffy since it aired so please don't jump down my throat about this. I just noticed a pattern when reading the 'What attracted you to Buffy?' thread and thought it was interesting. So if you accept that. Please read on

You guys got me thinking why no matter how many good Spuffy hypothesises I hear, no matter how many times you demonstrate that Spike loved Buffy so much and all logical reasons as to why they might work better than Bangel. Regardless of these I'm still standing firmly on ship Bangel with no view of the dread pirate ship Spuffy in my sights and not the slightest cause for sea sick....so i pondered.

Subsequently reading the 'what attracted you to Buffy' thread I gained some clarity and realised when you started watching BTVS seems to play a factor in determining the side you fall on in the whole Spuffy-Bangel debate. Not the only factor, or indeed even necessarily an important factor but certainly a factor.

I think alot of the Bangel loyalty comes from fans who grew up with Buffy and Angel together so then when Spike and Buffy hooked up after so many years it was like huh?

For those of you Spuffy fans who didn't watch BTVS when it aired but instead on Boxset. Once again I acknowledge that's not all of you but to those who it is. Can you understand how watching Buffy and Angel together for nearly four years makes a huge difference (in terms of attachment)? To watching the expanse of their relationship in a few short days?

Now I'm not saying had you watched it from when it aired you would feel any different, you most likely wouldn't. But what I am trying to demonstrate is where alot of the Bangel support comes from and why so many of your arguments will fall on deaf ears from a Bangel point of view. Loyalty and nostalgia are not only the prevailing undercurrent of this debate they are for many the end of it.

Now don't mistake me here, I'm not trying to say loyalty is the main reason ship Bangel flies a proud mast, Buffy and Angel's love is the main reason. But loyalty is a huge part of why Bangel supporters can't see past the stern of the Bangel ship to the Spuffy ship that is lapping behind (at least in our eyes that is 😉 ) and why they never will.

I kind of get it... but not really. Spike was in love with Buffy from season 5 on and they hinted they were going to do Spuffy in season 4 with Something Blue and Who Are You. So Spuffy actually lasted longer than Bangel. It's the fact that you saw Bangel first. You saw Bangel first and got attached to it for years... and then Spuffy happened and you were like "wait, no." because Bangel happen first. You were used to Bangel. That could be said for a lot of the Bangels, not just those who watched as it was airing. I firmly believe a good number of Bangels might be Spuffies if they had seen season 4-7 before 1-3.

 

[caitaintdead]

I watched Buffy since day one, and I'm a Spuffy. I'm sure it's possible that when you watch it does have some impact, but I think it more has to do with the personality of the person. Eg. I'm a realist not a dreamer, I'm all about punk rock passion, not prissy love stories.

 

[Justme]

Trust me. I've had my issues with this scene too and I understand how hard it can be to watch. I rarely watch it. Yet, after discussing this scene in other threads on the BB, I don't call it the AR scene anymore because I honestly question whether it was an "attempt." It's way to complex to get into again, but basically, I now call it what the actors and writers call it...the bathroom scene. Nonetheless, I get why some people don't ship Spuffy if this scene affects them so. For me, I just know that a lot of things that followed this scene and well into s7 were about forgiveness, trust, and love from both Buffy and Spike.

Yes I do see what you are saying. I think the main problem is the writing, I think the whole "AR" (it's just easier to call it that) and aftermath was written very poorly.

I am in no way singling you out when I say this, but that statement has never really made a whole lot of sense to me, no matter how many times that I hear it. We are expected to forgive Angel for everything that he has ever done when he has no soul, we even have a separate name for him when he is in that condition, and yet we can't give Spike the same consideration. If Angel can have an "evil twin brother" named Angelus on whom we can heap all of the bad things that he does, why can't we give Spike the same consideration? All of the good things that Spike did before he regained his soul, the pain that he endured rather than betray Buffy and her family, the times when he covered Buffy's back in battle, his fulfillment to a dead girl whom he had every reason to believe that he would never see again in this world or any other, even the assisting in literally saving the world, are all ignored because of a single mistake that Buffy, herself, forgave and put behind her. No "evil twin brother" for Spike. Every crime, sin, and act of mayhem that he has ever perpetrated since clawing his way out of the grave, is piled on him and never forgotten.

At the very best, the good things that soulless Spike has ever done are simply brushed aside with the excuse, "Well, yes, he did do all of those things, but he only did them to impress Buffy," or, as Angel so eloquently put it, "to get in a girl's pants." Okay, granted, Spike was motivated by the need or desire to please and impress Buffy, at least at first, but I will submit to you that EVERYONE, in the beginning, does the "right" thing in order to impress someone, usually their parents, long before they ever have any real concept of good and evil, or right or wrong. And that was exactly what Spike was doing, and for that exact same reason. He wanted to please Buffy because, even without a soul, he loved her, and he wanted to earn her love in return. I somehow find it extremely hard to imagine Angel, minus soul, ever doing anything even vaguely similar to that.

So let's at least cut Spike the same slack that we do Angel. Neither man should be held responsible for anything that they did prior to regaining their soul, or both should. Level that playing field, and it might just be that Spike is a better man than Angel ever will be. Or not. But at least give the guy the simple courtesy if judging both him and Angel by the same standards.

Yes but what I mean is. The other thread convinced me that Angel was bad for Buffy. I am just not convinced that Spike was good for her.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

When the Bangel era was all we knew, there was no such thing as 'Spuffy'. And I'm more than sure that if there was Spuffy at the same time as Bangel, I would ship Spuffy. And I'll add an inmportant information about me to continue what I'm saying... I was a Bangel shipper back then. They were my ideal couple (in the sense of the Buffyverse). Through season 4, I was still a Bangel, Riley hater mostly because I shipped Buffy and Angel. Then came the first Spuffiness in this season. And it turn the whole thing upside down completely. I became a Spuffy all the way. I don't care for Bangel anymore. I've been watching Buffy since episode 1, shipped Bangel, but changed my mind, because I was drawn to the new ship that was created back then. I'm converted and will never again.

 

[The Unspoken]

Disclaimer
Before I begin let me just say I have no doubt there are loads of Spuffy fans who have been watching Buffy since it aired so please don't jump down my throat about this. I just noticed a pattern when reading the 'What attracted you to Buffy?' thread and thought it was interesting. So if you accept that. Please read on

You guys got me thinking why no matter how many good Spuffy hypothesises I hear, no matter how many times you demonstrate that Spike loved Buffy so much and all logical reasons as to why they might work better than Bangel. Regardless of these I'm still standing firmly on ship Bangel with no view of the dread pirate ship Spuffy in my sights and not the slightest cause for sea sick....so i pondered.

Subsequently reading the 'what attracted you to Buffy' thread I gained some clarity and realised when you started watching BTVS seems to play a factor in determining the side you fall on in the whole Spuffy-Bangel debate. Not the only factor, or indeed even necessarily an important factor but certainly a factor.

I think alot of the Bangel loyalty comes from fans who grew up with Buffy and Angel together so then when Spike and Buffy hooked up after so many years it was like huh?

For those of you Spuffy fans who didn't watch BTVS when it aired but instead on Boxset. Once again I acknowledge that's not all of you but to those who it is. Can you understand how watching Buffy and Angel together for nearly four years makes a huge difference (in terms of attachment)? To watching the expanse of their relationship in a few short days?

Now I'm not saying had you watched it from when it aired you would feel any different, you most likely wouldn't. But what I am trying to demonstrate is where alot of the Bangel support comes from and why so many of your arguments will fall on deaf ears from a Bangel point of view. Loyalty and nostalgia are not only the prevailing undercurrent of this debate they are for many the end of it.

Now don't mistake me here, I'm not trying to say loyalty is the main reason ship Bangel flies a proud mast, Buffy and Angel's love is the main reason. But loyalty is a huge part of why Bangel supporters can't see past the stern of the Bangel ship to the Spuffy ship that is lapping behind (at least in our eyes that is 😉 ) and why they never will.

But loyalty isn't really a reason in itself for shipping Bangel, or at least it shouldn't be. Basically you're saying 'I've become attached to this ship and I'll stay loyal to it regardless of its portrayal - and that of 'competing' ships'. Ideally, each ship would be judged on its merits alone.