Bangel vs. Spuffy

[caitaintdead]

Taking up Buffy's duty of patrolling is no excuse. Neither is not being biologically related to Dawn. If they wanted to accept the responsibility of taking care of her, they should have done that. Dropping a couple classes here and there to be able to get a job sounds reasonable to me. Also, again, I know a lot of people who go to college full time, have full time jobs, and families. No, they don't patrol and fight evil every night, but they do have to be home to take care of their young children. Dawn was 16. She was old enough to find a job herself (I have NO clue why that option was never bought to the table either) and old enough to take care of herself more or less. She could do her homework on her own, she could make herself dinner, she could take a shower without being told, she could go to bed at a reasonable time without being instructed to.... There is still absolutely no reason to dump money troubles on Buffy after pulling her out of wherever she was. Even thinking they were pulling her out of hell, they could have been a bit more... what's the word... thoughtful? I mean, pulling someone out of hell and dumping a heap of money troubles on her as soon as she's stable enough to think straight? That sounds really inconsiderate and just plain rude.

And Buffy dropped out as soon as it was made apparent she was needed at home more than she needed to continue her education at that moment. She had pretty much stopped going to classes before that. I'm not suggesting Willow and Tara drop out of school, just dropping one or two classes and making some sort of attempt to be financially independent and responsible adults. I think it sounds like a reasonable request.

Totally agree. They wouldn't have even had to drop classes. If they both worked a Saturday 9-5 shift, or a Saturday night then they would have been pulling in enough money between them so that Buffy would only have to work part time. It's one thing that they were to busy while Buffy was dead... But once she was back? No. Bloody. Excuse.

Just poor writing in my opinion.

Anyway... Spangel yay!

 

[caitaintdead]

I'm already the last poster on your comment! I win at life!

I can't argue with it either cause I totally agree.

---------- Post added at 12:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 AM ----------

In my opinion, Buffy and Spike just do not fit. Many people argue for Spike because he was capable of loving Buffy, although he had no soul. But what kind of love was that?

A love that defies the odds

.

I find it interesting that Bangels always say Spuffy never could have worked. Couldn't the same be said for Bangel? I really don't see how the obstacles in the way of Spike and Buffy working are any less then the issues that Buffy and Angel faced. Spike tried to rape Buffy while without a soul, Angel (arguably) did just as bad, if not worse, when he had no soul.

Certainly he helped Buffy when she needed someone to talk after her friends had ripped her out of heaven. But once he realized that he enjoyed her confidence, he used it shamelessly in his favor, regardless of Buffy's inner life at this time.

Could you please give me examples of how he used this shamlessly in his favor?

I agree that Spike took advantage of the situation to sleep with her. He could have said no, he could have pushed her away when she threw herself at him. Lets bare in mind though that BUFFY made the first move, and that Spike was in love (or at least, felt incredibly passionate about her) and wanted to be close to her.
In his own little way, he was there for Buffy in many ways that her friends were not. He was a creature of darkness and without a soul, but for a vampire without a soul he tried to help her.

I'm not too sure after Intervention it could be called obsession with Buffy. I don't think he was obsessed with her, I think he cared for her.

Agreed.

Also, I'd like to point out, it could be said Angel's got an unhealthy obsession with Buffy too because in season 5 of Angel we find out he's got a PI spying on her in Rome. If you ask me, that's scarier and more obsessive stalker freak than the BuffyBot.

I wouldn't say scarier or more obsessive. Definitely a little odd though, and in certain ways, just as weird. Especially considering they broke up 5 years before. If my ex from 5 years ago was spying on me, I would definitely call that obsessive.

No, it wasn't. But not everything in live is healthy... and sometimes the most unhealthy things you do are necessary, like in this case.

I agree again. Some of the darkest times I have been through that have been unhealthy have helped me get through tough times and DEAL with them rather then pretending to move on and be happy. Buffy wanted to feel alive, and being involved with Spike was a means to an end. It helped her realise what her major issues with being alive were, and begin to heal.

Without Spike around do we honestly think Buffy would have come to terms with her situation?

I can see a future for them because I believe they can overcome the violent nature that started the relationship, and even use it to their advantage, but I can understand how someone would say that I'm just being overly optimistic.

Once again, if people believe the violent nature of their relationship while Spike didn't have a soul means they can't forge a relationship when he does have one, it means Buffy should not forgive Angel for the horrible things he did while Angelus.

Basically - if this is used as an argument against Spuffy, you can not ship Bangel.

How was Spike better off without Buffy in Angel season 5? I just think that's an interesting statement to make.

Saying that Spike is better off without Buffy is purely based on opinion. In my opinion he did not grow at all in Season 5. He was exactly the same person he was at the beginning of Season 5. If we look at character growth Spike had while with Buffy and compare it to Season 5 I think we would all agree that Buffy is clearly a good influence on Spike.

I don't necessarily ship Spuffy all the time, yes their relationship was many shades of grey, it had ups, it had downs, but once Spike earned his soul for a chance with Buffy I thought there was a very real chance of them having a beautiful relationship. If you don't believe they truly loved each other, you must at least admit that they shared an incredible bond. They trusted each other, cared for each, understood each other.

Spike went into bat for Buffy and believed in her when her watcher did not, when her friends let her down.

 

[zobothehobo]

I find it interesting that Bangels always say Spuffy never could have worked. Couldn't the same be said for Bangel? I really don't see how the obstacles in the way of Spike and Buffy working are any less then the issues that Buffy and Angel faced. Spike tried to rape Buffy while without a soul, Angel (arguably) did just as bad, if not worse, when he had no soul.

I agree. And before I start responding to this, thank you Cait. Your responding made my day. haha

I agree that Spike took advantage of the situation to sleep with her. He could have said no, he could have pushed her away when she threw herself at him. Lets bare in mind though that BUFFY made the first move, and that Spike was in love (or at least, felt incredibly passionate about her) and wanted to be close to her.
In his own little way, he was there for Buffy in many ways that her friends were not.

Ok, I can see that... sort of. I mean, he did tell her to go in Gone... but I can see how he could have done more of telling her no.

He was a creature of darkness and without a soul, but for a vampire without a soul he tried to help her.

Exactly.

I agree again. Some of the darkest times I have been through that have been unhealthy have helped me get through tough times and DEAL with them rather then pretending to move on and be happy. Buffy wanted to feel alive, and being involved with Spike was a means to an end. It helped her realise what her major issues with being alive were, and begin to heal.

Without Spike around do we honestly think Buffy would have come to terms with her situation?

EXACTLY! And it's a great question. Seriously...

Once again, if people believe the violent nature of their relationship while Spike didn't have a soul means they can't forge a relationship when he does have one, it means Buffy should not forgive Angel for the horrible things he did while Angelus.

Basically - if this is used as an argument against Spuffy, you can not ship Bangel.

The Bangels always justify that double standard by saying that Buffy never had a relationship with Angelus, but she did have one with soulless Spike. As I have said before, I don't get how this justifies anything. A soulless vampire is a soulless vampire and Spike and Buffy both grew from that.

Saying that Spike is better off without Buffy is purely based on opinion. In my opinion he did not grow at all in Season 5. He was exactly the same person he was at the beginning of Season 5. If we look at character growth Spike had while with Buffy and compare it to Season 5 I think we would all agree that Buffy is clearly a good influence on Spike.

I agree 100%. I was and am really disappointed by Spike's lack of development in season 5 of Angel. He's the character who I've felt made the biggest leaps in the seasons he was in on Buffy... then on Angel he was just stagnant.

I don't necessarily ship Spuffy all the time, yes their relationship was many shades of grey, it had ups, it had downs, but once Spike earned his soul for a chance with Buffy I thought there was a very real chance of them having a beautiful relationship. If you don't believe they truly loved each other, you must at least admit that they shared an incredible bond. They trusted each other, cared for each, understood each other.

Spike went into bat for Buffy and believed in her when her watcher did not, when her friends let her down.

Exactly. Those last two sentences are beautiful and pretty much why I ship Spuffy.

 

[Kana]

I must say I disagree that Spike didn't develop in Season 5 of Ats.

As I've said before, one of my complaints with Spuffy was this line:

"I did this for you. The soul, the changes—it's what you wanted"

Before he got a soul he was doing deeds that he thought Buffy would want. Even after he regains his soul, he's still trying to be what he thinks Buffy wants him to be. People say that in Get It Done, that Spike getting himself back. I'd contend, he's still just doing what Buffy wants.

On Ats, he's still measuring himself externally, by comparing himself to Angel. Is he better, morally superior etc. However in Damage and Shells, he has moments of reflection. Unlike his insensitive and sometimes inaccurate speech to Wood in LMPTM, he at least is taking a moment to empathise with his victims. I'm not saying he has to navel gaze like Angel but it's nice that he's finally getting that sense of self reflection.

In Shells, he begins to reflect upon what he wants. He believes in the fight. It's not about being better than Angel or about Buffy, it's finally about him and fighting for something he believes in. So yes, I'm loathe to people saying he didn't change in Season 5. It's actually more subtle but just as important as his other character developments, because in this case, he's being more conscious about his development and or redemption rather than using Buffy as a gauge and not being overly confident about his own sense of identity.

 

[zobothehobo]

he's being more conscious about his development and or redemption rather than using Buffy as a gauge and not being overly confident about his own sense of identity.

Isn't being conscience about redemption doing it for something else? I'm currently writing an essay in English about the differences between Spike and Angel and I've got a paragraph devoted to the fact that when Ange's got a soul, he's seeking redemption. Spike on the other hand, seems to be like "what's done is done. I can't go back and change it and yeah... it was awful... but I was soulless. And there's no use in whining over the past." Honestly, I feel like that makes Spike better than Angel. He comes out of the amulet fighting on the side of good. In Just Rewards he could have taken the deal and gotten Angel's body... but he didn't. And that wasn't for Angel, Buffy, or redemption. It was because it was the right thing to do. He fought with Angel and the rest of the team at the end of the season because it was the right thing to do. Ergo the starting and ending in the same place thing... I believe that in Buffy season 7, a lot of what Spike did wasn't for Buffy, but rather because it was right. I mean, you mentioned Get it Done... he did suggest he should leave. He thought that was the right thing to do to make sure he didn't do any damage and hurt anyone. He didn't say that for Buffy. He said that because it was right. Saying Spike fought along side Buffy in season 7 solely for Buffy is a rather ridiculous statement. You have absolutely no way to prove he didn't fight against The First because it was the right thing to do. I personally believe it was a mixture of both. He wanted to help the woman he loved and be the man she deserved... but at that point I'm pretty confident that's not all he was thinking and I'm also pretty confident he wasn't really trying to be with her in season 7. I don't think he felt he deserved her. Not until the end.

 

[Spikefan31]

Once again, if people believe the violent nature of their relationship while Spike didn't have a soul means they can't forge a relationship when he does have one, it means Buffy should not forgive Angel for the horrible things he did while Angelus.

Basically - if this is used as an argument against Spuffy, you can not ship Bangel.

Saying that Spike is better off without Buffy is purely based on opinion. In my opinion he did not grow at all in Season 5. He was exactly the same person he was at the beginning of Season 5. If we look at character growth Spike had while with Buffy and compare it to Season 5 I think we would all agree that Buffy is clearly a good influence on Spike.

I don't necessarily ship Spuffy all the time, yes their relationship was many shades of grey, it had ups, it had downs, but once Spike earned his soul for a chance with Buffy I thought there was a very real chance of them having a beautiful relationship. If you don't believe they truly loved each other, you must at least admit that they shared an incredible bond. They trusted each other, cared for each, understood each other.

Spike went into bat for Buffy and believed in her when her watcher did not, when her friends let her down.

Yes to all of this! 😀

 

[Kana]

Isn't being conscience about redemption doing it for something else?

It depends on which way you look at it. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with Spike's sense of morality, more that he had development of self, and isn't just doing things because he believes Buffy expects it of him. This is different from helping and caring because you believe in yourself that helping people in the right thing to do. It may not seem like much, but I feel this was a huge development for Spike.

I'm currently writing an essay in English about the differences between Spike and Angel and I've got a paragraph devoted to the fact that when Ange's got a soul, he's seeking redemption. Spike on the other hand, seems to be like "what's done is done. I can't go back and change it and yeah... it was awful... but I was soulless. And there's no use in whining over the past." Honestly, I feel like that makes Spike better than Angel.

To me it doesn't matter to me as long as both are fighting to help people. If Angel's brooding turns into self loathing then things become problematic, but he's not simply about brooding about the past. Angel's a reflective person who sees things wrong with the world and is willing to dedicate the rest of his existence to helping others. Spike is doing the same. I admit, I prefer Angel's journey because I relate to it more. I personally wouldn't change because it's what someone wants, I'd change if I'd met someone who reaffirmed my faith in people. So it's not so much about saying either one of them is better, more that I was able to relate to Angel more. This said, Angel coming out of himself and being a champion amd leader as opposed to being a loner hero who makes moon eyes at Buffy is something of development for Angel. I felt Spike deserved more and he got it.

He comes out of the amulet fighting on the side of good. In Just Rewards he could have taken the deal and gotten Angel's body... but he didn't.

Just Rewards was a start and only proves my point. I didn't say that he was evil but he found a greater sense of purpose from Shells onwards. This is evident when he gets his solid body back. The first thing he does is fight with Angel then gets drunk in seedy bars. I wasn't saying that if faced with decision he would make a wrong choice but more that he lacked a greater purpose. I'm not ragging on him but more celebrating his development.

And that wasn't for Angel, Buffy, or redemption. It was because it was the right thing to do. He fought with Angel and the rest of the team at the end of the season because it was the right thing to do. Ergo the starting and ending in the same place thing... I believe that in Buffy season 7, a lot of what Spike did wasn't for Buffy, but rather because it was right.

It wasn't for Angel but he didn't have much purpose and sense of himself and as for what happened at the end, he did do the right regardless of whether would love him or not but he did do it so that Buffy would go on. Nothing wrong with that but I was interested to see how Spike would continue his development outside of the sphere of Buffy Summers. Just Rewards was the beginning, which led continuing to do good deeds and for different reasons, developing a deeper sense of purpose for a fight he believed in. Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he was douche before Ats Season 5 but that he became a more complete person. Ain't nothing wrong with that.

I mean, you mentioned Get it Done... he did suggest he should leave. He thought that was the right thing to do to make sure he didn't do any damage and hurt anyone. He didn't say that for Buffy. He said that because it was right.

He still deferred to Buffy, which is fine. I'm not saying Spike had no sense of right and wrong at all. The soul gives him that. I'm only contending he had more of sense of himself after he left Buffy.

Saying Spike fought along side Buffy in season 7 solely for Buffy is a rather ridiculous statement.You have absolutely no way to prove he didn't fight against The First because it was the right thing to do.

He also never contradicted the statement he made in Get It Done.

I personally believe it was a mixture of both. He wanted to help the woman he loved and be the man she deserved... but at that point I'm pretty confident that's not all he was thinking and I'm also pretty confident he wasn't really trying to be with her in season 7. I don't think he felt he deserved her. Not until the end.

It may well be but it doesn't contradict he had more a sense of himself in Ats S5. I'm actually complimenting Spike and saying he developed more after Btvs, not that he was a mindless amoral idiot in Btvs.

 

[BuffangelLovE]

Hey, thanks for your replies. I hope that no one has felt offended by my post. I know, I have set out a rather one-sided opinion without extensive explanation, but it's a topic which I have never discussed in a forum, so I only have unloaded the thoughts that I had carried around with me for so long. At least I've tried to see it your way, before I started answering below... I've also tried to present my thoughts on Spuffy more precise and orderly (Season 5 till 7) than before.

I do agree, that Spike was in love with Buffy. At first it was more like obsession. Starting at Season five: The greatest thing he did here for Buffy, was to protect Dawn: he was tortured by Glory, but kept Dawns secret and totally earned Buffys kiss afterwards. Then he took care of Dawn while Buffy was dead, because she asked him to. These were all evidence of his true love, which got more visible by the end of the season. Never disagreed on that - just said, it was no ordinary human love. For Spike, it was PDA, when the person you love tortures or kills you for your own good, and stuff. But at this point Buffy and Spike have not bothered me at all. I found them very sweet together.

I have included the Spuffy-shippers viewpoints on Season six in my reasoning, but still can't agree completely.
When Spike realized that Buffy was back, it was awesome how he reacted (his speach to the Scoobies was absolutely true & adorable). Buffy was a total mess, shocked, and when she realized, he would understand most what she's been through, of course she came to him. And he was there for her, which I was greatful for. I still just don't like the direction their relationship took.

I have to explain the "largely responsible" and "used her shamelessly"-something phrases from my original post. I can't blame you for not understanding my point as you can't blame me for not understanding your point. Every one of us has their own perceptions, own experiences in life and own values. That's why we will never agree on everything. I do agree that I probably chose wrong words. It started with the point when Spike found out, he could physically insult Buffy. But it was still not that horrible, because she's the Slayer and knew how to defend herself at that time. If consciously or not, Spike started manipulating Buffy (mindgames). He did it so he wouldn't lose her attention sooner or later, when she was ready to reconcile with her friends. He was ever eager to remind Buffy of her being sort of an anomaly, that she belongs to the darkside with him and not her long-time-devoted, beloved people etc. And because Buffy was now vulnerable (on the inside), she let him pull herself onto the "dark side". That is what I meant with Spike being responsible for Buffys alienation from her friends and family. I should have said, "he made it worse". It was evident (to me), that although it might have felt "good" for awhile (that's why she repeatedly went to see him), she knew that it, in fact, wasn't good for her. There were several signs of her dispair about what was happening to her and Spike, without her being strong enough/able to put an end to it: her cutting her hair, not wanting to drink the antidote in "Normal Again" after Spike threatened her to telling the Scoobies about their relationship, her breakdown in Tara's arms. These scenes were very depressing and hard to digest. Shortly afterwards she told Spike that it was over. Because she didn't or "couldn't" love him, as she stated (and I believed her). To me, it seemed like she was more addicted and dependent on him than anything else. She had accepted and understood that it was not only Spikes fault, but she was the one who made this relationship happen while using Spikes feelings.

In the summary, Season-six-Spuffy was not healthy, because his love remained unrequited and both humiliated each other in a way, but just for my understanding. I'm willing to say that the two were quits in the matter, because they were both to blame, still can't brush it off entirely.
Plus: As I already stated, the (almost) rape thing was the most disturbing and false scene ever... even though I know, that Spike just went nuts and wasn't in control of his actions. I know what it (rape) did to a friend of mine and even an attempt would screw any sympathies for the offender forever. Especially when it's a person, who I sort of liked (and confided in) once. I know you can't transport Spuffy into the real world, but that doesn't change the way I feel about what I saw and felt in this very moment (scene).

I do give Spike credit for his development in Season seven. He was still devoted to Buffy, but didn't try to get her back, because he knew what he's done to her. That given, Buffy was able to regain trust in soulful Spike and appreciate his remorse and help in fighting The First; she developed strong feelings for him - I do get that. But no matter what feelings Buffy had for Spike - I do believe that she will never love him as much as she did love Angel. And Spike knew that. That's why he wouldn't believe her "I love you" shortly before he burned. He saw her with Angel the night before. And because the new Spike could now comprehend true love, he was able to compare both, the feelings he was receiving from Buffy to the feelings she felt towards Angel - and he knew, which were the stronger ones. Still her true feelings for Spike were left undefined. He was in her heart - fine, but doesn't mean, she loved him romantically. There was a special bond - I do agree on that. I just didn't see ...t.h.e. l.o.v.e... there. Good move by Joss for letting this unsolved, because otherwise we wouldn't have to discuss anything.

In the end, I came to the conclusion that Spuffy and Bangel were sort of even here. But that doesn't make me believe in Spuffy, though. To me, Bangel always will be the better ship (didn't mean it's the "best" - never said, that Bangel was perfect, but just an utterly different story, which felt more special, important and kind to me, than Spuffy).

 

[caitaintdead]

She had accepted and understood that it was not only Spikes fault, but she was the one who made this relationship happen while using Spikes feelings.

Well I'm glad we agree that Buffy had equal responsibility for anything that happened. When you said Spike was 'shamelessly taking advantage' I thought you meant that anything that happened was his fault.

In the summary, Season-six-Spuffy was not healthy

Agreed. In many ways it was unhealthy, but as a means to an end it helped Buffy.

Plus: As I already stated, the (almost) rape thing was the most disturbing and false scene ever... even though I know, that Spike just went nuts and wasn't in control of his actions. I know what it (rape) did to a friend of mine and even an attempt would screw any sympathies for the offender forever. Especially when it's a person, who I sort of liked (and confided in) once. I know you can't transport Spuffy into the real world, but that doesn't change the way I feel about what I saw and felt in this very moment (scene).

So do you honestly think Angelus never raped anyone? I thought it was pretty heavily implied he raped many women (and possibly men).

I do give Spike credit for his development in Season seven. He was still devoted to Buffy, but didn't try to get her back, because he knew what he's done to her.

The only Spuffy I truly ship is Spike with a soul. So does this mean that he is a better person for not trying to win her over after what he has done? That seems to be what you're implying. If so, then does this make Angel a worse person for sleeping with Buffy and trying to have a relationship with her after the horrible things he did to her?

I know you're new here so I hope I'm not coming across as to argumentative here!

 

[BuffangelLovE]

So do you honestly think Angelus never raped anyone? I thought it was pretty heavily implied he raped many women (and possibly men).!

I probably understand why you came up with this particular question. But if you consider Angel as a rapist - you need to do so with Spike too (while the bathroom scene he told Buffy about what he used to do to little girls like Dawn back in the day).
Buffy knew that neither Angel nor Spike were good beings all the way. We mostly judge people on what they're doing to us, explicitly us. It's always easier to condone and forgive something that happened to anybody else than yourself.
So their past didn't bother her (and me) much, as long as they didn't hurt her.
Both, Angelus and Spike hurt her - but at very different levels. Because Buffy was able to differ between Angel and Angelus, everything Angelus did, Buffy could deal with, because she managed to keep a certain distance to his actions (or so was my impression), although it still did hurt her, that she had lost Angel. Even thogh Angelus/Angel once raped people, he never made that move on Buffy. I don't even think, he (Angelus) would have even managed to, because Buffy woulda beaten the hell outta him, before she'd let him. However, after all what happened in S6, Spike had that power over her (although she was the Slayer and certainly stronger than Spike, she lacked the strength to just push him away), which was awful to watch. With the attempted rape Spike was about to take Buffys dignity (imo the most precious thing a person has). Again, I want to emphasize that Spike didn't mean it. But the damage was done anyway.

Nevertheless, as we all know, Buffy seems to have forgiven Spike. I'm not sure, if I could.

The only Spuffy I truly ship is Spike with a soul. So does this mean that he is a better person for not trying to win her over after what he has done? That seems to be what you're implying. If so, then does this make Angel a worse person for sleeping with Buffy and trying to have a relationship with her after the horrible things he did to her?

I don't know if I understand your questions properly, but I'll try to reply.
No, that doesn't necessarily making him a better person. The fact, that he became more sensible, mature, understanding and his new human traits, does make him a better person. He was reasonable enough to know he had to deserve Buffys forgiveness - not to force her into forgiving him. The old Spike would have tried.

When did Angel try to to sleep with Buffy, after what he did to her (S2)? As far as I remember, she made the move in season three, when she took him back again. She loved him and was able to forgive him. And because he loved her too, he appreciated it & gave their relationship another try. They never tried to sleep together again (well, except of IWRY, where he was human for a day).

I know you're new here so I hope I'm not coming across as to argumentative here!

No, it's fine. As long as we both respect each others viewpoints, I'm down for a discussion! 🙂

 

[prophecygrrl]

I probably understand why you came up with this particular question. But if you consider Angel as a rapist - you need to do so with Spike too (while the bathroom scene he told Buffy about what he used to do to little girls like Dawn back in the day).

Most of us do consider him a rapist and a murderer. Just like most soulless vampires and demons. No one was saying otherwise.

Buffy knew that neither Angel nor Spike were good beings all the way. We mostly judge people on what they're doing to us, explicitly us. It's always easier to condone and forgive something that happened to anybody else than yourself.

I disagree with this. Buffy's always made it clear that she takes every death or horrible thing that happens on her watch as a personal failure. That's part of what being the Slayer is- being full of enough love to consider each human life precious.

No, that doesn't necessarily making him a better person. The fact, that he became more sensible, mature, understanding and his new human traits, does make him a better person. He was reasonable enough to know he had to deserve Buffys forgiveness - not to force her into forgiving him. The old Spike would have tried.

When did Angel try to to sleep with Buffy, after what he did to her (S2)? As far as I remember, she made the move in season three, when she took him back again. She loved him and was able to forgive him. And because he loved her too, he appreciated it & gave their relationship another try. They never tried to sleep together again (well, except of IWRY, where he was human for a day).

I think caitaintdead meant in IWRY, because even if no one remembers what happened except Angel, it still happened, technically. And I haven't watched Season 3 in a while, but wasn't the decision to restart their relationship a mutual one? I don't recall Buffy making the first move or anything, but I might be wrong.

Also, welcome to BB!! Glad to have you here, even if you are a Bangel 😛

 

[StarSlayer]

I do agree, that Spike was in love with Buffy. At first it was more like obsession. Starting at Season five: The greatest thing he did here for Buffy, was to protect Dawn: he was tortured by Glory, but kept Dawns secret and totally earned Buffys kiss afterwards. Then he took care of Dawn while Buffy was dead, because she asked him to. These were all evidence of his true love, which got more visible by the end of the season. Never disagreed on that - just said, it was no ordinary human love. For Spike, it was PDA, when the person you love tortures or kills you for your own good, and stuff. But at this point Buffy and Spike have not bothered me at all. I found them very sweet together.

Well, yeah. It wasn't really no ordinary human love because Spike was a vampire, lol! The fact that he tried to be good and fought those impulses to do evil (especially when he was soulless) made his love for Buffy extra special IMO 🙂

I still just don't like the direction their relationship took.

That's fine. To each his own 🙂 For me, I love the story of Spuffy. Unless the writing is God awful (which I don't believe it was in BtVS), I wouldn't want a story to change.

If consciously or not, Spike started manipulating Buffy (mindgames). He did it so he wouldn't lose her attention sooner or later, when she was ready to reconcile with her friends. He was ever eager to remind Buffy of her being sort of an anomaly, that she belongs to the darkside with him and not her long-time-devoted, beloved people etc. And because Buffy was now vulnerable (on the inside), she let him pull herself onto the "dark side". That is what I meant with Spike being responsible for Buffys alienation from her friends and family. I should have said, "he made it worse".

Spike wasn't just a regular human being though. He was a soulless vampire. Soulless vampires, especially one that has killed two slayers in the past, shouldn't fall in love with a slayer. But he did. Falling in love with Buffy didn't make him a good person. He tried to be, but it was getting his soul that ultimately made him 100% good (especially in Buffy's eyes). So, although he may have subconsciously manipulated Buffy by telling her that she belongs in the darkness, it was in his nature to manipulate. Yet, although it could be interpreted as manipulation, Buffy never saw it that way. Instead, it was more of an exploration of her dark side IMO. Plus, Buffy was no sweetheart either. She emotionally abused him, and we saw how it affected Spike in s7.

It was evident (to me), that although it might have felt "good" for awhile (that's why she repeatedly went to see him), she knew that it, in fact, wasn't good for her.

I agree, and that was Buffy's whole struggle. She was having feelings for someone she really shouldn't be having feelings for, which was exactly how Spike felt when he fell in love with Buffy. "He's everything I hate. He's everything I'm suppose to be against. But the only time I feel anything is when..." Is when she's with him? When she has sex with him? Or it could be all the above. Whatever it is, she was feeling something for a soulless vampire and that scared her because she's the slayer. She embodies everything that is good.

In the summary, Season-six-Spuffy was not healthy, because his love remained unrequited and both humiliated each other in a way, but just for my understanding. I'm willing to say that the two were quits in the matter, because they were both to blame, still can't brush it off entirely.

IMO, from "Smashed" (well, really "Wrecked") onward was unhealthy for Spuffy because Buffy used Spike. She admitted it. Spike was still willing to be with her because, in his own crazy way, he loved her. As I said before, he thought she may one day change and admit her feelings for him because he felt them. But, everything leading up to "Smashed" was not unhealthy. Buffy shared her feelings and felt comfortable around Spike before they started any intimate relationship.

Plus: As I already stated, the (almost) rape thing was the most disturbing and false scene ever... even though I know, that Spike just went nuts and wasn't in control of his actions. I know what it (rape) did to a friend of mine and even an attempt would screw any sympathies for the offender forever. Especially when it's a person, who I sort of liked (and confided in) once. I know you can't transport Spuffy into the real world, but that doesn't change the way I feel about what I saw and felt in this very moment (scene).

That scene is hard for everyone, even Spuffies, to take in. I'm also so sorry about your friend because no one deserves that. Nonetheless, I can't judge Spike like a regular human being because he wasn't. He was a soulless vampire. Although he wanted to be good, there was still a demon inside him (literally) that he couldn't control. I honestly didn't know if I would still ship Spuffy after that scene. But, what came out of it and how their relationship developed in s7 is one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen on a TV show. The fact that they were able to discuss their feelings (about both Spike's actions and Buffy's actions) and move on just fascinates me.

But no matter what feelings Buffy had for Spike - I do believe that she will never love him as much as she did love Angel. And Spike knew that. That's why he wouldn't believe her "I love you" shortly before he burned. He saw her with Angel the night before. And because the new Spike could now comprehend true love, he was able to compare both, the feelings he was receiving from Buffy to the feelings she felt towards Angel - and he knew, which were the stronger ones. Still her true feelings for Spike were left undefined. He was in her heart - fine, but doesn't mean, she loved him romantically. There was a special bond - I do agree on that. I just didn't see ...t.h.e. l.o.v.e... there. Good move by Joss for letting this unsolved, because otherwise we wouldn't have to discuss anything.

To make a long story short (too late), I believe Spike did believe Buffy (to an extent) when she said I love you. I've discussed this in other threads so I won't go too much into it here 🙂 But, I can't deny that look of shock in his face when their hands embraced and the fire erupted. Both of them felt something so powerful at that moment...and there's nothing more powerful than love 🙂 And Buffy's actions, more than her words, proved constantly that she indeed loved Spike. When Angel came back, did she leave Spike to go be with him? No. Did she spend her last few nights with Angel, even though he was in town? No. I do believe Buffy will always love Angel because he was her first love and there's no escaping that. However, I believe she also loved Spike, and I sometime even think she loved Spike more than Angel based on her actions. But, I'll always believe she loved them both, just differently.

I get very passionate about Spuffy if you haven't already noticed, lol! Anyways, welcome to the BB 😀 You'll find it's an awesome place to discuss things, even Bangel related topics 😉

 

[prophecygrrl]

That scene is hard for everyone, even Spuffies, to take in. I'm also so sorry about your friend because no one deserves that. Nonetheless, I can't judge Spike like a regular human being because he wasn't. He was a soulless vampire. Although he wanted to be good, there was still a demon inside him (literally) that he couldn't control. I honestly didn't know if I would still ship Spuffy after that scene. But, what came out of it and how their relationship developed in s7 is one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen on a TV show. The fact that they were able to discuss their feelings (about both Spike's actions and Buffy's actions) and move on just fascinates me.

Agreed! i'd also say that that scene is hard especially for us Spuffies, because a lot of us are very sympathetic when it comes to Spike. To see him like that in that scene is horrifying. And for me, I adore Buffy to pieces. I hatehatehate seeing her so helpless and so scared.

And I'm so, so sorry to hear about your friend. Sending thoughts and love to you and her.
It really bothers me the way the writing team handled the AR. It was supposed to get a response from the audience, but it also triggered a lot of painful memories for a lot of people and the way they handled the AR after the fact was clumsy at best. I love Spuffy in Season 7 for everything StarSlayer just said, but the aftermath of the AR from Buffy's perspective was just poorly handled IMO. Especially for a show that claims to be feminist. *shakes head*

However, I believe she also loved Spike, and I sometime even think she loved Spike more than Angel based on her actions. But, I'll always believe she loved them both, just differently.

I also agree with this! I've just finished up reading a Spuffy meta by The Royal Anna, and she mentions that she doesn't believe we love in amounts, but in ways. It's something very profound and IMO, very true.

 

[BuffangelLovE]

I think there is no much more ground to discuss this further.
But it was fun, thank you all! 🙂

I do get and respect your points, although I don't/can't see things the way you do, which is okay. I do wanna like Spuffy much more, because Spike is one of my favorite characters, he always will be. If it's any meaning, I see Spuffy now in a different (perhaps better) light. I'm also rewatching season six at the moment just to get a feel for it again. Let's see if I can gain new insights from it.

 

[zobothehobo]

I think there is no much more ground to discuss this further.
But it was fun, thank you all! 🙂

I do get and respect your points, although I don't/can't see things the way you do, which is okay. I do wanna like Spuffy much more, because Spike is one of my favorite characters, he always will be. If it's any meaning, I see Spuffy now in a different (perhaps better) light. I'm also rewatching season six at the moment just to get a feel for it again. Let's see if I can gain new insights from it.

I love it when we can influence Bangels this way. It's different because a lot of us Spuffies were Bangels when we first watched at the beginning. Before Spuffy existed... a lot of us were Bangels. So we see the appeal of the 'ship. It's different for Bangels. Some Bangels were too stuck on Bangel to give any other 'ship with Buffy a shot... and some of them wouldn't have shipped Spuffy if they saw it first. It's just hard to weed the two different kinds out.

 

[StarSlayer]

I love it when we can influence Bangels this way. It's different because a lot of us Spuffies were Bangels when we first watched at the beginning. Before Spuffy existed... a lot of us were Bangels. So we see the appeal of the 'ship. It's different for Bangels. Some Bangels were too stuck on Bangel to give any other 'ship with Buffy a shot... and some of them wouldn't have shipped Spuffy if they saw it first. It's just hard to weed the two different kinds out.

Also, I know at least for me, s3 of BtVS just made me not like Bangel anymore. It's funny because many Bangels (if not all) love "Amends," but that was the episode that made me hate them together, lol! I tried to like them again as the season continued, but I couldn't. They got annoying real fast for me. Yet, I didn't suddenly become a Spuffie right then and there. It wasn't until "After Life," that I 100% sailed the Spuffy ship 😀

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Also, I know at least for me, s3 of BtVS just made me not like Bangel anymore. It's funny because many Bangels (if not all) love "Amends," but that was the episode that made me hate them together, lol! I tried to like them again as the season continued, but I couldn't. They got annoying real fast for me. Yet, I didn't suddenly become a Spuffie right then and there. It wasn't until "After Life," that I 100% sailed the Spuffy ship 😀

Why Amends?

msgtooshort

 

[zobothehobo]

Also, I know at least for me, s3 of BtVS just made me not like Bangel anymore. It's funny because many Bangels (if not all) love "Amends," but that was the episode that made me hate them together, lol! I tried to like them again as the season continued, but I couldn't. They got annoying real fast for me. Yet, I didn't suddenly become a Spuffie right then and there. It wasn't until "After Life," that I 100% sailed the Spuffy ship 😀

You hated Bangel after Amends too? God they were so annoying. I hate the episode of Amends. I didn't cry... I didn't have any emotional response really. And it really pissed me off the snow didn't melt as soon as it hit the ground. I mean, I'll ignore the fact it couldn't start snowing like that... but I can't ignore the fact the grown was 70+ degrees and the snow didn't melt as soon as it hit? I don't care how fast or hard that snow is falling, it's going to melt. But that's a different issue. Yeah, they got really clingly and cliche after Amends. Buffy really irritated me the whole rest of the season. ESPECIALLY in The Prom. Oh my god, I wanted to hit her. Her dreams of them together forever... did she actually think that could happen? I thought she was a tad smarter than that. However even though I felt that was annoying, in season 4, I was still looking forward to Angel being there in Pangs and I was irritated they didn't see each other. I wanted a Bangel reunion. Then Something Blue happened and I was a Spuffy.

 

[StarSlayer]

Why Amends?

Like zobothehobo, I didn't cry or have any emotional response. Actually, that's not entirely true, lol! I got so mad at them! All they did was whine, whine, whine about their feelings for each other. Although they loved each other, they said they couldn't be together, and it really dragged on far too long for my taste. I can't stand couples like that. It's so juvenile. Hell, even Romeo and Juliet didn't whine! They knew what they felt for each other and got married a few days later! That's one of the reasons why I don't see the comparison between Bangel and Romeo and Juliet. Yes, it's the idea of forbidden love, but the key difference is Romeo and Juliet didn't sit back and let society (and their families) dictate their feelings. They acted upon them.

Plus, both Angel and Buffy were being completely selfish at that point, which is why I don't like them together. I love them separately as characters (and Buffy with Spike and Angel with Cordy, lol), but by that point, they were bringing out the worst in each other. Angel said that he didn't care if he lost his soul again, if it meant he could be with Buffy for just one more night. So, he'll turn into a monster again who would try and kill Buffy and her friends (and could possibly succeed), if it means he could just have another moment of happiness? How selfish is that! Grrr...argh 😡 It makes me so mad!

And with Buffy, when Angel says how he doesn't deserve forgiveness and the world wants him dead, Buffy says she loves him so much and she tried to make it go away. HUH? If you love someone that much, why would you want to make it go away? She already knows what he is and what he has done (especially to her), but she still loves him. So, what's your problem, girl? You don't wish him dead, so stop complaining about how hard it is to make your feelings go away. But, I do like how she calls Angel a coward, because he was acting really selfish at this point and needed some tough love.

Nonetheless, to matters worst, in the middle of their argument, let's resolve it by having it snow, when it hasn't snowed in CA for years. Someone up there likes Angel I guess! I'm sorry, but the cheese factor was in full force there.

So, yeah. After "Amends," I hated them together. And don't even get me started on IWRY, lol 😀

 

[dan k]

As for your point on amends brittany i disagree
buffy didn't act on her feelings for angel because she didn't want him to go evil again

She was in a really difficult position in terms of what angel had done before, how her friends felt, it wasn't as simple as you make out in regard to angel. Here is a guy who loves buffy so much yet knows he can't act on his feelings, imagine the frustration of not being able to be with a person who you are besotted with and love to pieces.
Furthermore angel has killed people again and he has to come to terms with that, understandably he finds it extremely hard what with the guilt so the fact he wants the pain to go away isn't surprising considering he has nothing to live for in his eyes because what he wants in not obtainable.