@Dora - I didn't claim "the EU had kept the peace in Europe". I said there'd been peace between the integrated countries since its instigation. And doesn't Trump think NATO is obsolete?
if there was a EU army of 28 nationalities on the streets of the UK would we then be able to leave
why does a friendly trading block require a Military force anyway which the citizens of that block have no control over ?
Who said the EU would put an army on our streets?
🙄 "They need us more than we need them...remember"? How is actual coercion conducive to trade? And surely, if there are 28 nationalities the Brits are participating in something we had a veto on? There's so much shite written about an EU army. Remember how we were all being "conscripted" into it?
The UK can’t be forced into an “EU Army”
I don't know where we're up to with the concept or the actuality of an Army (because I've never obsessed over it) but this was being said 12 months ago.
"Merkel and Macron’s Aachen treaty applies only to Germany and France, which remain both EU members and sovereign nation states.
It is their prerogative to pool military capability if they wish. Likewise, in accordance with the Lisbon treaty, the EU decides all defence policies unanimously.
If there ever were plans for a bona fide EU army, any member state could veto it.
But the larger point here is that the EU army of such lurid British nightmares cannot and will not emerge.
There will never be any situation in which Brussels rules over a series of battalions and member states are compelled to deploy their armed forces against their consent. The main reason for that is the EU’s national governments hate the idea and always have.
The Franco-German treaty isn’t a reason to leave the EU, says Jonathan Lis, deputy director of the thinktank British Influence
www.theguardian.com
And, why would they need an Army on our streets to make us stay? The mechanism to leave is there. We triggered it and we've left. It works and no armies were created or hurt in the making of this departure. The EU's recently admitted they may need to look at their red lines following our departure. TBH, I'm more wary of an English(DL) army than an EU one.
Despite what the media (RW mainstream or Far-right conspiracy driven tripe) would have me believe, I can't see how they've hindered us. What they wanted (and what Leave promised) was an orderly exit. May had a WA - it was Parliament that refused to let it through and, as far as I'm aware, Parliament is sovereign. The response looked collective but the reasons often conflicting. MPs in Remain voting seats/MPs in Leave seats voting with their conscience and what they thought was in the best interests of the country (we don't have direct democracy); the ERG (extreme Leavers)/the SNP/the DUP/the LD/the Greens etc. etc. all rejected it. I can't see where the EU tried to force our hand. They weren't the ones who prorogued parliament, wanted to ignore the courts or banned journalists.
Our destiny is outside the EU and the centralisation of power in a bunch of old men in Brussels
Is this a soundbite from a manifesto?
Destiny?...FGS! What's destiny? Our "destiny" at the moment seems to consist of a selective, overly romantic and mythologised past projected into the future. The referendum was, to borrow a phrase used to describe strategies designed to win popular support, a "battle for hearts and minds". Leave won the former (premised on a Nirvana that never existed) but were very short on facts (where's my £350 million promised by a bus? Where are all the Turks?) whereas Remain were too objective.
So why is it better to have the future in the hands of "a bunch of old
men in Westminster" - or worse - in the US? And don't tell me "we can vote them out" because the system in the UK isn't helpful to smaller parties and will become more conducive to the Tories after the boundary changes. That aside, there's the media and the lies (or omissions) perpetuated by the RW press...it's like a third arm. We have a PM who has refused to open himself up to scrutiny in the past and is still refusing to answer questions today. And who voted his adviser in? Where does this "power" we have come from? IMO, power operates in a nexus but has a centre even if the centre isn't immediately obvious or visible.
I'm not saying the EU was perfect...at one level I don't give a rat's arse about it. I was never that interested in it (or real politics) and I've had to educate myself about it. Economically I think we're better off in. However, IMO, the EU took a lot of stick for things that were the fault of the UK Government (Gideon's Austerity, Immigration) ...and from what I saw on the Mail yesterday, the blame is still going on. What bothers me is the loss of freedom that comes along with gaining our "Freedom". The implications of "taking back control of our borders".
At the weekend the story broke about the infamous "Happy Brexit Day" letter in Norwich. It was horrific but I've no way of knowing whether this was "fake news" or not. What follows isn't.
My son was on Market Street in Manchester on Saturday (ironically, outside UniQlo - a Japanese chain). Three young (18-20), well dressed women walked past him wearing anti-pollution masks. They looked Chinese (they could have been tourists. They could have been born in China Town or elsewhere in the UK. My guess is they were students). The truth is - IDK. What I do know is this. An elderly white woman approached them and asked them to remove the masks saying "You're in England. We don't wear them in this country". When the young women politely refused she said. "This is our country. When you're in our country you abide by our rules".
I've lived in England all my life...and my life's probably been longer than yours. I had a university education but I'm not one of the elite. My dad was a miner (and a Methodist) and my mother a cleaner/shop worker (and a Catholic). I live (but not for much longer) in a Leave voting area. 50% of my family, for various reasons, voted to Leave. I'm sure there's a valid and reasonable argument for Leaving (Lexit?) but I've yet to hear it from the media (or Leave MPs/MEPs). I'm willing to listen to one provided there's an embargo on the word "bananas" and on the understanding I don't give a FF about the colour of my passport.
My PhD required an understanding of theories of nationalism and of what the right refers to as "Cultural Marxism" (I've never been on Facebook but I have read the Frankfurt School) and, TBH, the former terrifies me far more than the latter. The England the elderly woman above wants isn't the England this elderly woman wants. I understand her fears but I share the values of the EU far more than I share hers.
This does not change what I think about the stability of the EU - the civil insurrection in a number of countries about accepting immigrants may push the EU into a much more warlike stance and will certainly impact finances. It is not clear sailing ahead for anyone in Britain or the EU.
I don't - in theory - disagree with this but I wouldn't want to leave the loose cannon that is the POTUS out of the equation.
how would Russia react to having a large EU army basically on its borders influenced by Germany and not NATO
Dunno...we might know something if they
released the report on Russia.
