BtVS Season 7 Rewatch

resurrecting Buffy they way they did (big magicks) has put Buffy 'back into the line of slayers'.

Maybe that’s in the next episode it wasn’t in this one. I couldn’t recall if they had tried to explain this further.

But the answer is still why? Right? Buffy died in s1, she came back and Kendra then Faith is our girl. So how/why would bringing her back put her back in the line? Was it something in the spell? She should gave nothing to do with the line after s1..

No Nintendo.
 
This was a pure ass-pull on the writers' part. Utter crap.
Or, because this is S7, they simply forgot the basics of the show rules. The same Season where they retconned the end of the Initiative and Spike's Initiative story was also retconned. Or magics are suddenly not addictive. They couldn't get anything right in this Season.
 
Maybe that’s in the next episode it wasn’t in this one. I couldn’t recall if they had tried to explain this further.

I don't think they do. There's this line that was in the shooting script of Chosen but was changed:

BUFFY (cont'd)
I've got strong allies: warriors, charms, sorcerers, and I'll need them all. But I'll also need you. Every single one of you. So now you're asking yourself, "What makes this different? What makes us anything more than a bunch of girls getting picked off one by one?" It's true none of you has the power Faith and I have. I think both of us would have to die for a new Slayer to be called, and we can't even be sure that girl is in this room. That's the rule. So here's the part where you make a choice.

I have no idea if Joss has ever talked about that concept, or if he just chucked that idea entirely. That would contradict the idea that there would always be two slayers going forward because of the resurrection (which I actually like as an explanation much better). This version would make resurrected Buffy kind of a plug in the slayer line instead, I guess. So if Faith died, no new slayer would be called until Buffy died too.

I remember reading a theory that Willow's spell asked for the "warrior of the people" to be returned, so that's what could have reactivated Buffy as a part of the slayer line.
 
But the answer is still why? Right? Buffy died in s1, she came back and Kendra then Faith is our girl. So how/why would bringing her back put her back in the line? Was it something in the spell? She should gave nothing to do with the line after s1..

I guess its my interpretation then; Willow called forth 'the warrior of the people'; it wasn't just resurrecting Buffy (like with CPR or from a gunshot wound) but reconstituting all of her at once; her body, soul, life essence and therefore her also slayer-ness. Basically she's a brand new slayer.

I'll admit its been a while since I've seen those eps of S7 but I thought it was inferred. Hmn, perhaps not.
 
Getting there...

Selfless:
I've been waiting to get to this one. No 'good, bad, interesting' today, just the Excellent and the Hilarious. It's a great writing debut by Drew Goddard who demonstrates his Buffy-geekiness with some choice parallels and continuity references to earlier episodes ('Becoming', OMWF, the talisman from 'Something Blue'. I love the doubleness of the title, alluding to the sacrifice Anya will make at the end, the sacrifice Buffy is willing to make for the sake of the world (again) but also to the ides of self and self-definition, for both Anya and Spike since they are very much paralleled.

First, The Hilarious:
-pretty much all of the Aud flashback scenes. Though, I don't even know Swedish and I can still tell they're speaking it wrong. Sounds more like the Swedish Chef.
- love the bunnies and hence the suggestion that Anya's bunny-phobia may stem from her bad memories of her former life
- This has some of my favourite lines from the whole show:
- Olaf: "I have no interest in this Rannveig. Her hips are large and load bearing, like a Baltic woman. Your hips are narrow, like a Baltic woman from a slightly more arid region."
- 'Hide your babies and your beadwork!'
- 'The troll is doing an Olaf impersonation...hit him with fruits and various meats!'

The rest:
Dawn's advice to Willow in the teaser describes someone who has no self, who acts only in accordance with what others are doing which sets up the episode thematically pretty well. I love the cut to the shot of Anya covered in blood and sitting there in shock (though if it was the spider demon that did the killing, why is Anya so messed up? Was she standing very close to the action and got hit by blood spatters? The blood on her hands makes it look like she did the killing herself.) And after the flashback there's a great Lady Macbeth vibe as she scrubs her hands frantically in the sink. Then again we get another excellent transition as Spike's dialogue from the next scene starts before the cut and establishes the parallel: 'I don't trust what I see anymore'.

The Spike hallucination scene was great. I like the twist of it turning out to be a hallucination as the real 'tough' Buffy walks- or indeed the ambiguity of whether it might actually be the First. I appreciate real Buffy's wariness: 'Fine. Show me.'

The Lie is finally addressed! Buffy calls out Xander's hypocrisy and just shuts him down, which is marvellous. His behaviour is perfectly in-character since it is now about someone he cares about. However I can't remember if we see any long-term change in Xander as a result of this confrontation? Interestingly they skirt around the actual consequences of the Lie - Willow's 'I didn't say that' is never examined or taken further so Buffy never realises that she could have potentially avoided having to kill Angel. Not that it matters in the grand scheme of things since she can't do anything to change it and they'd probably need an extra 15 mins of screentime to address that pain fully. Anyway the 'Becoming' parallels are played out so well. MF notes that Anya is in demon face before the sword and human after - that sort of mirrors the Angelus/Angel change when Buffy's about to stab him and the restoration takes hold.

The recontextualisation of Faith's 'I am the Law' was excellent, the difference being that where Faith line was spoken in order to justify her abuse of her power, Buffy's echo of it is about recognising the responsibility of her power and of course, the loneliness that it brings. Mark Field said something that hadn't ocurred to me before: "Angelus told Buffy that she had “no weapons…no friends… no hope.” It wasn’t that her friends were not physically present. It was that if those whom she called friends were willing to cheer her on to kill the love of her life, then they weren’t really friends at all." It really does bring home how incredibly isolated Buffy must have felt after killing Angel. The line also reminds me of The Scene in 'Empty Places' where Buffy asserts that there is no room for democracy and there needs to be 'a single voice' - but wehre here it feels poignant and right, there it, well, it's a little messier. I'll have to see whether I think the writers explore the implications of this well enough along the way.

D'Hoffryn was vile. I don't remember him coming across like this in previous appearances but it absolutely works and lets us know just how mcuh we've underestimated him before. We now see him as a classic pimp: ostensibly sympathetic, with this 'I care about you' paternal affection, until one of his 'girls' decides to break the rules and he lets her know how much of a disposable commodity she is. Chilling. On a side not I also miss Kali Rocha after this. She was such a wonderful lively presence. Then theer's 'from beneath you...' ARGH! We get it ok! And how does everybody know this anyway?! Buffy knew because of her slayer dream, but is the First going around whispering it to all of the underworld?

This episode raises important questions about Anya and Spike's self-definition and while I think Spike's side does get picked up in later episodes (certainly if we go with Mark Field's theory on 'Him', then that episode follows on well) I can't recall if Anya's does?

Trivia:
- Anya was named Aud after a real historical viking woman who was married to a man named Olaf and was known for her sense of humour and ability to manage money.
- Joss wrote 'His Mrs' in one evening while working on Firefly (damn your multi-talented competency Joss!!)


Him:
It's fun little episode in general; a reworking of 'Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered' but lacking its energy and spirit. Mark Field's theory on the episode being a meta on Spike and Spike fans is very interesting, and I can certainly see how it works, especially with Buffy saying 'It seems real...to you' and the number of times the lovestruck women claim they can see/know his soul, but then the Spike part isn't picked up again by the end so I'm not sure how intentional a meta on the part of the writers it was
( incidentally have any of the writer's ever commented on the thinking behind the episode?). In light of this possible meta-crtique episode, I will be paying more attention to what extent the rest of the season critiques and deconstructs Spike and the issues around his persona.

The episode itself is a bit 'meh,' but with a few things that stood out to me:

- The opening of the episode is a bit odd - I actually didn't understand a word Xander said in that first scene following the Intro. His dialogue sounded garbled, like NB was in a hurry to get the words out. No idea why...😕

- I'm still absolutely loving Xander and Buffy as Dawn's 'parents'. It just works so well - on this basis I can see why SMG wanted Buffy and Xander to get together. They actually have a very good family dynamic.

- Buffy and Dawn's conversation: Loved it. It balances Buffy's willingness to extend compassion with her reservations - and ours - about Spike, with Dawn articulating the reservations. I'm a bit iffy on the whole 'he knew it was wrong' idea, but if this episode is a meta on fans, then we could see Buffy and Dawn as representing both sides of the fandom regarding the soul debate. On that note I hated the 'It's me', from Buffy when she was jumpy around Spike. She has every right to be jumpy. I think the idea is that she's being more compassionate and understanding of how his soul and the basement is affecting him, but after her more aloof 'Fine. Show me.' last episode it didn't quote follow.

- Nice little touch of having Spike turn the angel figurine away from him.

- I do love the Buffy trying to kill Wood scene. It's hilarious.

- I also love the buddy-team thing Xander and Spike have going when they steal the jacket (which was also very funny - they way it was shot they approach him at full tilt looking like they're going to tackle him and instead take his clothing). I want more of that actually.

- 'No guy is worth your life, not ever!' - teenage girls of the world, take note! (I'm looking at you Bella Swan)
 
"Angelus told Buffy that she had “no weapons…no friends… no hope.” It wasn’t that her friends were not physically present. It was that if those whom she called friends were willing to cheer her on to kill the love of her life, then they weren’t really friends at all."

I never thought of it this way. And this makes it much more believable that Buffy would run away because her supposed friends had cheered her on to kill Angel.

I'm a bit iffy on the whole 'he knew it was wrong' idea, but if this episode is a meta on fans, then we could see Buffy and Dawn as representing both sides of the fandom regarding the soul debate.

Oh man, I guess this means I'm Dawn... that is strange. Buffy usually speaks for me throughout the seasons. Have you seen the shooting script of this scene? You should take a look its... well IMO it is not good. I'm not happy with what we got but I'm glad it wasn't what was in the shooting script.

On that note I hated the 'It's me', from Buffy when she was jumpy around Spike.

I really did not care for this either. All of the pre-credit stuff was so weighted with regards to the Spike/Buffy s6 trauma and it was tightly packaged and given no room for exploration. The remainder of the episode was comedic and even if I do buy into the "this is all a meta" argument it doesn't really speak to the heart of the trauma that still needed to be addressed. That the crammed all of this really important stuff in the pre-credits scene is upsetting.
 
Potential

I don’t like Buffy as a teacher. It feels incredibly fake to me. But more importantly, I have a big problem with the choices she makes in this episode.

Dawn watching from the stairs... She really wants to be included and I feel for her. Buffy was supposed to teach her that stuff. I can’t help but think about the opening scene from Lessons and it makes me so sad that they chose not to make Dawn a potential.

The scoobies’s reaction to Dawn being a potential is interesting. Xander is all excited at first, Anya says Dawn is going to be a hero and Willow keeps saying that Buffy will be so excited (which… really? I have a hard time believing that Willow really thinks Buffy would be excited about her little sister having the same burden to bare). Dawn is the first to realize that for her to be a slayer, that would mean Buffy has to die (or Faith, but they forgot). I’m surprised by this but I also think it says a lot about Dawn’s growth. At least Xander eventually realized Buffy probably wouldn’t be happy about it. But I still scratch my head at Willow not getting that.

Dawn trying to break the stick of wood was hilarious.

Buffy locking the girls inside of that crypt with the vampire is, in my opinion, one of the worst things she has ever done and it makes the episode one of my least favorite episodes for her. I can’t reconcile the Buffy who was betrayed and hurt by Giles in Helpless with the one in this episode. Before anyone starts to try to explain to me why she did it and how different the situation is, know that I have seen all the possible perspectives to this and for me it’s a matter of heart, not head. I cannot rationalize it because of my emotional connection to the character. For me, it’s one of the most out of character things the writers made her do, but I guess that’s the case for a big part of season 7 so it probably is in character with season 7 Buffy, it’s just not the character I fell in love with. And I think it’s one thing to leave and let them fight alone, it’s another to trap them with a monster. It’s also such a weird thing for her to do, as a teacher, given that she told them earlier in the episode to trust their instinct and run if they didn’t think they could handle a fight. It makes her lessons contradictory and it makes her lose credibility. Damn, I really dislike the way she is written in this episode. I’ll just finish by saying that she was extremely lucky that things turned out well for her.

Dawn’s face when she realizes she’s not a potential… but she’s so quick on her feet and brave and she’s able to empower Amanda in a moment of panic and deception. I’m so incredibly proud of her. When Amanda is explaining how she felt when she was against the vampire, you could tell by Dawn’s face that she was making peace with the fact that she’s never going to get to know how that feels. And I think the worst part for her is not being able to understand something that is so fundamental to Buffy's identity, while so many other girls (will) get to. It must really sting. In the end, Dawn puts her deception aside and decides to be a team player by contributing the way she can with research, which she’s been kicking ass at so far this season!

And then that last scene… As soon as it started, I got teary-eyed. It’s one of the most beautiful and emotional scenes in all of the buffyverse and it means so much to me because this was the scene that made me realize that Dawn Summers was the character I related to the most on tv ever. She used to annoy me when I was young (though I never hated her) but then I decided to rewatch the show (after not having seen it in over 10 years) and I loved her but this moment made me such a mess. I relate so much to the way Dawn feels in this episode, in relation to her sense of self, her place in the world and her inability to understand her sister. Seeing Xander tell her that she was exceptional was like some sort of revelation about myself, because I was there watching him say the words and I could only agree with him. So this is very cheesy but I’m assuming it! “You’re not special, you’re extraordinary” is obviously the high point of the speech, but this part is also worth noting : “Not one of them will ever know, not even Buffy”. I think it’s the root of Dawn’s struggle and an even bigger deal to her than not being “special”. Not being able to understand Buffy’s life and the connection to the slayer’s power is what really matters to Dawn. You can tell by her reaction whenever she’s excluded from the slayer activities. One of the first things she thinks about when the scoobies “discover” that she’s a potential is that if she ever becomes a slayer, it’ll mean Buffy will be dead. She is really longing to have that slayer connection with Buffy. I think being told by Xander that there is a part of her that Buffy, too, will never understand puts things in perspective. They each have their own destiny and Buffy is also missing out on being able to understand what Dawn’s life will be like. That scene is also a very nice moment for Xander. I’m glad the writers gave him a chance to express those feelings. And I’m glad that he can relate to Dawn about it now.

So overall… I have mixed feelings about this one? It’s one of my favorite episodes for Dawn. I love every single thing about her storyline in this episode. But it’s also one of my least favorite episodes for Buffy so I wish the 2 storylines were in different episodes.

My ranking :
Selfless
Same Time, Same Place
Lessons
Potential
Conversations With Dead People
Him
Never Leave Me
Showtime
Bring On the Night
Help
Sleeper
Beneath You
 
Potential

I really like Potential -- mostly because Dawn is just so great in it!

The opening scene is really fun and makes me like the Potentials. ("'Cause the black chick always gets it first?" and "I have learned a valuable lesson of some sort") Unfortunately, that's really the only scene with Buffy and the Potentials in this episode that I like. The demon bar scene just seems pointless, even though Clem is a treat, and I am one of those who does see echoes of the Cruciamentum in the crypt scene. Buffy's no QT the Jerkface, but I think the metaphor is there. A female leader can make things better for women, but that alone is not enough.

On rewatch, Dawn's story, which ended with her giving up her specialness, definitely seemed to foreshadow Buffy's journey this season (as many have pointed out).

I also picked up on some contrast between Buffy and Dawn in the dialogue, but I might be reading too much into it.

Buffy: And some of us will die in this battle. Decide now that it's not going to be you.
Dawn: We're gonna get out of this. Both of us. Alive.

Buffy: What do you know? Right now, the only thing you know for sure is you got me. (LEAVES)
Dawn: Look, I've got your back, but this is something you have to do.

Xander's speech at the end is great, of course, but I actually like him even better earlier in the episode when he's arguing on Dawn's behalf to Willow and Anya.
 
Potential

I also picked up on some contrast between Buffy and Dawn in the dialogue, but I might be reading too much into it.

Buffy: And some of us will die in this battle. Decide now that it's not going to be you.
Dawn: We're gonna get out of this. Both of us. Alive.

Buffy: What do you know? Right now, the only thing you know for sure is you got me. (LEAVES)
Dawn: Look, I've got your back, but this is something you have to do.

This is a very interesting contrast!! I couldn't help comparing the 2 fights while they were happening but I never stopped and looked at the dialogue.

This only confirms my feelings about the Dawn/Buffy stuff in this episode. I don't know if that's a positive or negative thing.
 
It’s also such a weird thing for her to do, as a teacher, given that she told them earlier in the episode to trust their instinct and run if they didn’t think they could handle a fight. It makes her lessons contradictory and it makes her lose credibility.

I totally agree with this. I can't see the short-term confidence boost as worth it, given that she has essentially demonstrated that they can't trust her.

I think it’s the root of Dawn’s struggle and an even bigger deal to her than not being “special”. Not being able to understand Buffy’s life and the connection to the slayer’s power is what really matters to Dawn. You can tell by her reaction whenever she’s excluded from the slayer activities. One of the first things she thinks about when the scoobies “discover” that she’s a potential is that if she ever becomes a slayer, it’ll mean Buffy will be dead. She is really longing to have that slayer connection with Buffy. I think being told by Xander that there is a part of her that Buffy, too, will never understand puts things in perspective. They each have their own destiny and Buffy is also missing out on being able to understand what Dawn’s life will be like.

This is really insightful (and super helpful to chew over for my story), so thanks!
 
Mylie
Mylie
Wow, I'm glad to help!! And really excited for that story!!! :)
Conversations With Dead People
I really love the premise of CWDP as a series of vignettes on loneliness and (dis)connection. It's very much the 'experimental' episode of the season which puts it alongside 'Hush' and 'OMWF'. Although it operates on a much smaller scale stylistically and in terms of plot, like them it plays with narrative form. It's the only episde to have a Frasier-like title card at the beginning (apart from the opening credits of OMWF), which immediately calls attention to its constructedness, it's fictionality. Yet, as Rhonda Wilcox notes in her essay on the episode, the following date and time notation on screen 'November 12, 2003, 8:01pm invites us to connect with the moment. To me the date notation also felt reminiscent of a diary entry - the idea that we're getting access to these characters most private thoughts and confessions.

I'd say the only con of this set-up was the absence of Xander. This really felt like it should have been an episode that focused on the core Scoobies (plus Dawn), yet what his absence did make me realise is that so far, aside from being extremely helpful and put-together, I don't really know yet who Xander is this season - what makes him tick, what anxieties he continue to have aside from his relationship with Anya? I'd have loved a glimpse into his mind and I love @sosa lola's idea of Xander meeting the First as Jesse. Anyway, on to the characters:

Dawn:
- Nice classic horror atmosphere
- The focus of Dawn's connection issues is with Buffy and her mother and I liked that the Dawn/Joyce relationship was brought to the fore after such a long time. The flash of Joyce on the couch lying in the same position Buffy found her suggests Dawn may have unresolved issues over her death. This is the kind of stuff we should have been seeing her dealing with in season 6 and which should have then helped her growth as a character.
- As for Buffy - 'Buffy won't choose you' is pretty straightforward sowing-seeds-of-dissent.
- 'Mother's milk is red today' - I immediately thought back to the 'vino de madre' used to resurrect Buffy. Is this a deliberate reference? Would make sense if they were planning on developing the 'resurrection of Buffy screwed up the balance' storyline that they introduced with Beljoxa's Eye later, but if so shouldn't this message have appeared to Willow?
- I loved Dawn's bravery in doing that banishing spell. Kick-ass Dawn continues!
- The extent of the First's powers are never outlined clearly, are they? We know it's incorporeal so it resorts to psychological manipulation, but now it can apparently control physical objects and make, uh, wind..?

Willow:
- Heartbreaking. AH was wonderful in these scenes.
- Where Buffy is feeling disconnected, Willow, as we saw in 'Lessons' is feeling more connected than ever to magic and so the First naturally and with miserable irony, intends to sever that connection by utilising Willow's other strongest connection - her love for Tara.
- The First shouldn't be able to sit down! Unless it was somehow hovering millimetres above the chair, undetectable to the human eye...😵

Andrew and Jonathan:
- I'd forgotten how much I hated Warren. I know it's the First but it plays Warren to a T and he's utterly repulsive.
- The 'check check' thing - LOL.
- I do feel for Jonathan. He's been there since the first season - he's our connection to the early years - and he shows here that he's matured quite a lot. I guess that's why he needs to die...
- Though why does TF need to recall these two just to open the seal? We know from subsequent episodes that any blood will do, so why go to all this effort getting them here? It could've manipulated a school kid or teacher or random homeless person whose absence would be more likely to go unnoticed far more easily and efficiently.

Buffy:
-It's good to finally get an insight into Buffy's mind. That she opens up to a vampire again is fitting ('whisper in a dead man's ear/doesn't make it real'), if also depressing.

-Disconnection from Dawn: as she converses with Webs, he phone lies in the grass as Dawn is trying to reach her. After the finale of S6 where it seemed like Buffy was reconnecting with her humanity as represented by Dawn , here the suggestion may be that she is drifting apart from it again...? In light of this her harsher behaviour with the potentials and Dawn's own inability to identify with the Slayer part of her (in 'Potential') could be read as symbolic of Buffy once again cutting herself off from her human self.

- I'm not entirely convinced on the notion that Buffy has commitment issues because she feels superior. I think she does have a sense of superiority due to the power and authority and she in turn despises the necessity of that role. However, I don't think it defines her romantic relationships - at most you could say it contributes to them. She clearly never had trouble committing to Angel but she was burned by that relationship, which undoubtedly had an effect on her. With Riley I don't think it was so much a case of being able to commit as it was of her feelings just not being as strong for him. Even though she wanted a relationship with him, Riley picked up on that and then allowed it to fuel his own inferiority issues. If he'd just accepted what Buffy could give him at that time (and not pressured her with that stupid ultimatum) theire relationship would have continued quite well - for a time at least. The distance created by her being the Slayer came second to this and compounded that emotional unavailability because of everything she had to deal with, but I don't think it caused it. She did after all run after him because she wanted to make it work; it's after he leaves that she blames herself and worries that her strength scares men away. Finally, her relationship/liaison/thing with Spike was clearly having a detrimental effect on her and stemmed from a bad psychological/emotional place so her unwillingness to commit there is no surprise and definitely the right decision (I can't imagine what commitment in that case would have looked like anyway). I think it's a bit remiss to apply a one-analysis-fits-all approach to her romantic/sexual relationships.

- Thankfully Webs tells her to ease up on herself - *slow clap* Thank you, Holden! Of course the sad thing is that this is coming from a soon-to-be-dusted vamp rather than her friends or family.

- The other big issue I have with what Buffy reveals is this idea of wanting to be punished because she felt she didn't 'deserve' to be loved. Of course this is about Buffy's own insecurities and perceptions of herself, but it does feel like it we're also supposed to ascertain a degree of truth from what she says and in that case it feels like a bit of a misreading/miscasting of her psychological issues in S6. What I saw in S6 was her using sex with Spike like a drug to escape the numbness and the trauma of her return to life. Eventually she comes to the realisation that it's actually making her feel worse rather than better because she's using him, which is why she breaks it off. I'm not sure how this squares with the idea that she wanted to be hurt/punished because she doesn't feel worthy of the power she has? 😕 She certainly later felt monstrous for the way she used spike even though she didn't love him, but that's not what instigated or fueled the relationship in the first place.

I think the strongest part of this episode is the structure and framing. I love the way it connects references and images of mouths: we start with 'conversations' in the title and by the end we've had shots of Dawn's blood-filled mouth, Spike's bloody fangs, First!Cassie opening its mouth and consuming itself - 'from beneath you it devours' indeed!

Sleeper:
This is the start of S7's more serialised run of episodes which I'm not very keen on. It's just not something the writing team is good at because it's not really the show's strength, unlike AtS where the structure and writing team are set up much better for this mode of storytelling. As a result, 'Sleeper' feels more like a bridging episode, linking the Scooby/MoTW focused section of the season to the more Big Bad arc heavy section. I do like that it picks up right where CWDP left off, which gives the plot a good pace but I thought it felt a little flat by the end because I could see what the outcome would be - Spike's being controlled, and Buffy decides to help him. This may just be because I'm not a first-time viewer (I can't remember what I thought on first watch - anyone else remember?) but I don't how much of a surprise the reveal could have been since we know he's been seeing and talking to something from the beginning, and even if the name 'The First' wasn't mentioned last episode, there clues couldn't have been any bigger.

I like that Spike's story is moving forward and he's now starting to confront his issues. I think Spike's lack of dialogue works very well to amp up the tension - his humming as he digs is incredibly disturbing and there's agreat use of Aimee Mann's song in the Bronze scenes to underscore the addiction metaphor.

Some possible Angel parallels:
- Spike seems to be wearing a black shirt and leather trousers when he goes a-killing. Spike never wears leather trousers - what is the meaning of this!! There must be a reason!!
- Buffy tailing him reminds me of when Angel caught sight of human Darla the first time. It's the same set-up: crowd, promenade, hot-dog stand. (might've been filmed at the same promenade in Santa Monica actually)
- The First to Spike 'You're going against the plan...But we can make it work' (Sleeper). The First to Angel: 'This isn't the plan...But it'll do.' (Amends)

Buffy & Spike confrontation:
- 'It haunts me. Everything I did.' We get a lot of people claiming during Spike debates that he doesn't seem to be troubled about his non-Buffy related crimes. I think we should be able to put that one safely to rest by now as he couldn't have stated it much clearer than this. Whether this aspect should have been explored more on the show is another debate.
-Though admittedly Spike then turning the argument to Buffy's supposed jealousy ('you can't ad mit it)and then saying 'it's still all about you' kind of overshadows the broader aspects of his guilt by refocusing on the Buffy element.

Basement:
- How did the First get the trigger in Spike (we'll never find that out, will we?)
- How did all the new vamps manage to wake up at the same time if they were sired on different nights? Was the First controlling them somehow since 'everything's connected', even evil as Webster pointed out in CWDP: 'I feel like I'm connected to an all-powerful consuming evil'
- I can't believe Buffy was able to be held down by two fledglings like that. Field reads this scene metaphorically, suggesting they newbies represent her fears about Spike so she is only able to deafeat them after seeing him resist, but when watching it on its own it does feel contrived.
- The conclusion of the basement scenes was good. Spike takes the important step in asking for help and SMG played the right combination of compassion and wariness in her response.

Also, she looked particularly beautiful in this episode. I loved her hair a lot but there was just something about her. I don't know how to explain it, but I noticed.
I noticed that too!
 
- Buffy tailing him reminds me of when Angel caught sight of human Darla the first time. It's the same set-up: crowd, promenade, hot-dog stand. (might've been filmed at the same promenade in Santa Monica actually)

It has to be the same set which is strange because they were shooting in different lots but I guess they would've been on location?

Also - where did they find all of these people? All of Sunnydale must have been out and about. I've never seen Sunnydale so busy!
 
She did after all run after him because she wanted to make it work; it's after he leaves that she blames herself and worries that her strength scares men away. Finally, her relationship/liaison/thing with Spike was clearly having a detrimental effect on her and stemmed from a bad psychological/emotional place so her unwillingness to commit there is no surprise and definitely the right decision (I can't imagine what commitment in that case would have looked like anyway). I think it's a bit remiss to apply a one-analysis-fits-all approach to her romantic/sexual relationships.

Whenever the subject of Buffy's "commitment issues" comes up, my brain always starts yelling, "SHE RAN AFTER THE HELICOPTER! SHE GOT DUMPED BY ... SCOTT HOPE!" Hahaha.

On a more serious note, MF's comment that "she certainly didn’t commit in any meaningful sense to Spike in S6" is pretty offensive to me. Someone who tries to rape you after you break it off is not someone you should be committing to in any meaningful sense!
 
I'm not entirely convinced on the notion that Buffy has commitment issues because she feels superior. I think she does have a sense of superiority due to the power and authority and she in turn despises the necessity of that role. However, I don't think it defines her romantic relationships - at most you could say it contributes to them.

I think this is strange as well and whats more is that we know Joss wrote this scene so this is something he really thinks is true about Buffy. But the only time I have ever seen Buffy having commitment issues with is Spike (see above re yours and @Grace 's comment re valid issues regarding why she was not committed to that relationship in s6).

Angel - she pursued him initially and wanted a relationship even when he was hesitant, after he returned she was hesitant to get back into a relationship with him (which valid due to Angelus/curse issues) but when they resume their relationship she is full speed ahead talking drawers and college visits. I also never got the impression that she thought that he was beneath her or inferior to her in season 3. Either way, he breaks up with her.
Scott Hope - She gets to know his friends and she is excited about going to the dance with him. Granted she still has feelings for Angel but she is trying to make it work. He breaks up with her.
Parker - she wants a relationship with him, he doesn't want a relationship with her. She doesn't understand why he doesn't want to be with her.
Riley - after some initial hesitation, she commits to him, she reassures him, she tells him that from her perspective she has given herself "body and soul" I think we as the audience know and Riley knows there was something missing but that was not something that she perceived. She felt she gave it her all and he gave her the ultimatum. He walked away. She ran after him.

All of these represent her wanting to be in relationships with men who left her or decided not to be with her for various reasons. The only time she had a commitment issues was with Spike. So this doesn't appear to be a Buffy specific problem as a Buffy & Spike specific problem. Which is why I don't agree with Joss' assessment that she has commitment issues because she is the Slayer. I do buy the notion that she never felt worthy of love, at least I saw that with Angel. She seemed insecure about him being interested in her (Halloween), insecure about Faith (Enemies - Earshot), and insecure about him wanting her (IWRY). But I never saw these same insecurities with Scott, Parker, Riley or even Spike.

So I guess I find myself arguing with Joss and this episode a bit which makes it difficult for me to enjoy. Because I guess I perceive Buffy differently.
 
Angel - she pursued him initially and wanted a relationship even when he was hesitant, after he returned she was hesitant to get back into a relationship with him (which valid due to Angelus/curse issues) but when they resume their relationship she is full speed ahead talking drawers and college visits. I also never got the impression that she thought that he was beneath her or inferior to her in season 3. Either way, he breaks up with her.
Scott Hope - She gets to know his friends and she is excited about going to the dance with him. Granted she still has feelings for Angel but she is trying to make it work. He breaks up with her.
Parker - she wants a relationship with him, he doesn't want a relationship with her. She doesn't understand why he doesn't want to be with her.
Riley - after some initial hesitation, she commits to him, she reassures him, she tells him that from her perspective she has given herself "body and soul" I think we as the audience know and Riley knows there was something missing but that was not something that she perceived. She felt she gave it her all and he gave her the ultimatum. He walked away. She ran after him.

This is all true and fair but doesn't Buffy say that she 'targets the wrong ones with deadly accuracy' or something to that effect? The thing that isn't emphasised in this episode (and I think what Joss was going for) is that Buffy is just being neurotic, she isn't speaking in truth bombs but about her inner fears. There is some truth here but Holden is not the most ideal sounding board, he's just the most convienient one.

Buffy's talk with Angel in 'Chosen' is way more important because at least it contains accurate self-realization; maybe there isn't anything wrong with her and she's just figuring stuff out. That's why I can stand the cheesy 'cookie dough' stuff because its wrapped in self-understanding.

Oh, and this thread is a great read. Carry on all! 🙂
 
This is all true and fair but doesn't Buffy say that she 'targets the wrong ones with deadly accuracy' or something to that effect?

Yes this is mentioned. But this isn’t true with Riley. I obviously ship Buffy with Angel but them being together means overcoming significant obstacles - vampire/curse as a preliminary matter. But Riley and her simply failed because of real world reasons that couples don’t work. He wasn’t wrong necessarily she just didn’t feel as strongly for him as he needed her to feel. So I don’t know that Riley fits this characterization. Right?
 
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But Riley and her simply failed because of real world reasons that couples don’t work. He wasn’t wrong necessarily she just didn’t feel as strongly for him as he needed her to feel. So I don’t know that Riley fits this characterization. Right?

Ah, but remember Buffy's first reaction to 'commando-Riley' in 'Doomed'? She freaked and said that she couldn't do 'doomed' again, for most of the episode she had that attitude. Buffy had earlier told Angel that she didn't want another 'work place romance', but 'a nice solid guy'. Riley was both but given what happened guess what Buffy would focus on?
Whilst I agree with you about the Briley analysis that we, the viewer, would say 'hey, that's too bad but its no-ones fault/jerk-Riley's fault' its entirely possible that Buffy- thinking back retrospectively- thought 'yeah, I knew it wouldn't work out going in but I did it anyway, foreknowledge and all. I sabotage myself'. So she thought that she did the same thing with Riley that she did with Angel; she made the choice to pursue and they left her 'but its her fault'
I guess we have to separate what we know from Buffy's perspective.

But I have to say that even that somewhat twisted Buffy-view doesn't square at all with Spike, and he's the one she actually dumped.
 
The thing that isn't emphasised in this episode (and I think what Joss was going for) is that Buffy is just being neurotic, she isn't speaking in truth bombs but about her inner fears. There is some truth here but Holden is not the most ideal sounding board, he's just the most convienient one.

This is a good point, and actually, going back to the commitment issues thing, Buffy herself says, "I commit. I'm committed. I'm a committee." Which I think is generally pretty true, not just with romantic relationships but in general, but Webs/the episode invites us to question it, so I think that's what I react to.
 
Yeah fair points @thetopher this isn’t “truth” as much as self reflection which isn’t always accurate.

I personally think Buffy’s flaw might be that she over commits. Her boyfriend’s/classmates/friends/sister’s problems become her burden to bear. Along with the world in peril stuff she already has on her shoulders. Now to be fair - most of her boyfriend/classmates/friends/sister’s problems manifest as world in peril stuff so the two typically go hand in hand.
 
thetopher
thetopher
Bingo on Buffy's actual problems. :)
but Webs/the episode invites us to question it, so I think that's what I react to.
Same here. The very setup of Buffy facing off with this psych major vamp who questions her statements invites us to examine and question them too.

I do buy the notion that she never felt worthy of love, at least I saw that with Angel. She seemed insecure about him being interested in her (Halloween), insecure about Faith (Enemies - Earshot), and insecure about him wanting her (IWRY).
Well she was only 16 when they started dating, so I put most of that down to teenage insecurities like anyone might have at that age. However insecurity and feeling unworthy/undeserving are two very different things.

This is all true and fair but doesn't Buffy say that she 'targets the wrong ones with deadly accuracy' or something to that effect? The thing that isn't emphasised in this episode (and I think what Joss was going for) is that Buffy is just being neurotic, she isn't speaking in truth bombs but about her inner fears.
Yes she does say that and I do think we are supposed to see that she's being neurotic and way too hard on herself - which is why Webster assures her she doesn't need to have everything worked out at 21 years old, but towards the end of the episode we get this exchange:

BUFFY
I have all this power. I didn't ask for it. I don't deserve it. It's like... I wanted to be punished. I wanted to hurt like I thought I deserved. I sorta think—you know, this is, um, complicated. If you'd rather just fight...

HOLDEN
(leans back) Tell me.

BUFFY
I feel like I'm worse than anyone. Honestly, I'm beneath them. My friends, my boyfriends. I feel like I'm not worthy of their love. 'Cause even though they love me, it doesn't mean anything 'cause their opinions don't matter. They don't know. They haven't been through what I've been through. They're not the slayer. I am. Sometimes I feel—(sighs) this is awful—I feel like I'm better than them. Superior.

She's still working through her feelings at this point so it's not necessarily all true, but it does seem to be presented as Buffy starting to come to some realisations about herself. She's not questioning whether she feels these things, she's admitting them. That's what I don't quite get. What she admits about her state of mind back then IMO doesn't fit the motivations we saw of her character in previous seasons. She does come to a clearer realisation r.e. boyfriends by 'Chosen' when she finally understands it's actually not because she's the slayer but simply because she's not ready yet, but why she felt unworthy and in need of punishment before is what I can't figure out. We know she did feel 'wrong' when she came back and she did cut herself from Dawn and her friends - is this what she wanted to be punished for?
 
thetopher
thetopher
See, this is a perfect reason for why Buffy should date Faith. :)
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