Buffy And Angel: Trust And Betrayal

[VisionGirl]

After smashed they both knew he could hurt her and she said she didnt trust him yet she let him handcuff her while they were...well you know lol..knowing all along that he had no soul and COULD kill her..

Really, you think that was about trust?! Or at least, exclusively about trust?

Her forgiveness of others atrocities against her is not exclusive to Angel but is a character trait of Buffy herself. This is Buffy. Buffy who forgave Willow for almost putting Dawn into danger because of her magic. Buffy who forgave and even loved Spike after the bathroom incident. Buffy who forgave her friends for pulling her out of heaven. Buffy forgives because that's who she is. She is the Chosen One, and she knows what it means to make irrecovable decisions that have disasterous outcomes. She knows the power of forgiveness because she knows the power of failure.

ITA

And don't forget . . . Spike wasn't the only one guilty of attempted rape or rape. Buffy tried to sexually assault him in "Gone". And she used him as a sex stud for half of Season 6. Spike had to learn to forgive her, as much as she had to learn to forgive him.

Buffy did NOT try to sexually assault Spike. Sometimes I think people watch a completely different season 6 than I did! Spike was a willing participant in the events of season 6.

I'm unsure what I think about the necessity of Angel telling Buffy about the events of IWRY. I vaccilate on that one and can understand both sides.

 

[Miss Kitty]

Kndizzle, I agree with you concerning Buffy and forgiveness. I think Buffy is able to forgive a lot of things, she always does. And I think that, somewhere, she'll be able to do it again concerning what Angel did. But the difference with all the examples you talk about (Willow who almost killed Dawn in a car accident, Spike who almost raped her...), is that Giles is dead. If Dawn was died in this car accident, I don't think that Buffy would have remained Willow's BFF and their friendship would have been destroyed in a lot of ways. Same thing for Spike, in a way. They have played with the limit, but they haven't crossed it. Angel did.

He tortured her for a year, he wanted to kill people she loves, he hurted persons she loves, and he killed Giles... She probably will forgive him in a way, but I don't think she will be able to overcome everything for bringing her at the point of being able to have a romantic relationship with him for example (and it would be disrespectful of Giles memory). That's not even an option in my opinion. Buffy is a lot more able to forgive people who hurt her, but if they hurt people she loves, the forgiveness is a lot harder to get.

But strangely, I think that the worst thing they did to Bangel in season 8 is the way they parodied them, and the way they deconstructed the pedestal/ idealization of their relationship. In my interpretation, season 8 played a lot about this fantasy, and that was a great way to lead her to the deconstruction of it. It will permit her to moving on from this.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Buffy did NOT try to sexually assault Spike. Sometimes I think people watch a completely different season 6 than I did! Spike was a willing participant in the events of season 6.

Yes, Buffy did try to rape him. She came into his crypt in invisible form. She threw him against the wall and started to rip off his clothes. It was only when she giggled and exposed her identity, when Spike realized who she was and consented to have sex with him. But, before he consented to have sex, Buffy was trying to sexually assault him. I am not the only person who noticed this.

 

[VisionGirl]

Yes, Buffy did try to rape him. She came into his crypt in invisible form. She threw him against the wall and started to rip off his clothes. It was only when she giggled and exposed her identity, when Spike realized who she was and consented to have sex with him. But, before he consented to have sex, Buffy was trying to sexually assault him. I am not the only person who noticed this.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this because he seemed to know it was her pretty quickly & didn't seem unhappy about it nor did he say "no". And the next time we see him he's apparently contentedly engaged in "exercise" with Buffy. That's not any kind of depiction of rape or sexual assault I've ever seen before.

 

[PrettyLilGirl]

VisionGirl it was more about trust then anything else. would Angelus ever have got to do that? A vampire with no soul an shes trusts to be put in a position of danger, she trusted that he wasnt just stringin her along to find a way to get one over and finally kill her..she trusts that he loves her enough that he wont harm her..

 

[VisionGirl]

VisionGirl it was more about trust then anything else. would Angelus ever have got to do that? A vampire with no soul an shes trusts to be put in a position of danger, she trusted that he wasnt just stringin her along to find a way to get one over and finally kill her..she trusts that he loves her enough that he wont harm her..

I respectfully disagree. I don't like comparing the vampires or the 'ships, because there are things that are unique to each. Yes I do think that there was an element of trust in there & Buffy's trust of Spike led her to confide in him in the first place & she believes that he's the only one that can understand her, but there's also her flirtation with danger & death, her need to escape, his need to tether her to him exclusively (I think the handcuffs are very symbolic of that). I just really dislike when people on either side of the Spuffy debate (particularly season 6 Spuffy) try to characterize it as one single thing: non-Spuffies will say it was just sex/lust, some Spuffies will say it was on its way to true love until Riley ruined it. To the former I call oversimplistic, to the latter... I don't know what really to say except "bullshit" LOL! I just think Buffy & Spike's relationship is more complex than that. Then again, so is Bangel (I don't really believe that Buffy baring her neck to Angel was all about trust either).

 

[LadyLavinia]

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this because he seemed to know it was her pretty quickly & didn't seem unhappy about it nor did he say "no".

Well . . . before he "quickly" figured out that was Buffy shoving him against the wall and ripping off his clothes, Spike was definitely in a state of fear. The expression on his face conveyed this. And Buffy had not exposed her identity, any one of us could only wonder what would have happened.

 

[kndizzle]

Kndizzle, I agree with you concerning Buffy and forgiveness. I think Buffy is able to forgive a lot of things, she always does. And I think that, somewhere, she'll be able to do it again concerning what Angel did. But the difference with all the examples you talk about (Willow who almost killed Dawn in a car accident, Spike who almost raped her...), is that Giles is dead. If Dawn was died in this car accident, I don't think that Buffy would have remained Willow's BFF and their friendship would have been destroyed in a lot of ways. Same thing for Spike, in a way. They have played with the limit, but they haven't crossed it. Angel did.

He tortured her for a year, he wanted to kill people she loves, he hurted persons she loves, and he killed Giles... She probably will forgive him in a way, but I don't think she will be able to overcome everything for bringing her at the point of being able to have a romantic relationship with him for example (and it would be disrespectful of Giles memory). That's not even an option in my opinion. Buffy is a lot more able to forgive people who hurt her, but if they hurt people she loves, the forgiveness is a lot harder to get.

But strangely, I think that the worst thing they did to Bangel in season 8 is the way they parodied them, and the way they deconstructed the pedestal/ idealization of their relationship. In my interpretation, season 8 played a lot about this fantasy, and that was a great way to lead her to the deconstruction of it. It will permit her to moving on from this.

Not to kick a dead horse or anything, but he killed Giles under the posession of Twilight and not of his own volition. He CHOSE to come back and fight beside Buffy, even though he didn't have to. Granted, he still mistakenly opened himself up to Twilight in the first place, I have to concede that much. While the blame for Gile's death may be pointed at Angel by himself and Buffy at first, eventually both will come to the understanding that Twilight used both of them equally. I can't say with 1000% certainty because I've only just began re-reading season 8, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Miss Kitty]

I don't have my comics books with me, one of my friends is reading them at her home, so, for the parts I don't have on the net, I will talk only with the memories I have of the text. For answering to your post, Kndizzle, I'm not sure I agree with your way of seeing it. I'm sorry, but I don't want Angel to get again a free-pass for his actions by an excuse like "possession". He chose to obey to Twilight's plan in a first place. He chose to torture Buffy during a year, by killing and hurting people she cared about. And he chose to be possessed. He has to assume the consequences. I think it's Scott Allie who said that neither Buffy or Spike would have accepted Twilight's plan in a first place.

For illustrate my way of seeing it : imagine a second that, for example, Willow did chose to become DarkWillow (that's not logical, I know, but that's hypothetical 😛 ) and that Dawn (or Giles, or Xander) was killed by her. Does it make her irresponsible of her actions ? Do you think Buffy would have forgive Willow easily and that their relationship would have remain the same ? Personally, I don't think so. Buffy can deal with people hurting her (or hurting someone like Warren). But it's a lot harder when it came to people she loves. Especially when it came to people who are like family to her, like Giles was.

Buffy never accepted Twilight's plan (destiny is definitely not her thing). She has made a judgement mistake (in her opinion, "boinking Twilight" was her mistake/betrayal, if we believe her own words in #40), because she had been driven to the lowest point emotionaly by Twangel during a year, for her being enough influenced then in her decisions (making her enough desperate for that, that's what have been recommended to Angel in the Riley One-Shot). She had been manipulated for this by Angel in a first place. And the glow did affect her in some ways.

Of course, all of this is based on my interpretation.

He CHOSE to come back and fight beside Buffy, even though he didn't have to.

That doesn't make him a hero, in my opinion... It should have been a normal decision to take... Buffy didn't hesitate a second. She shouldn't have been the one to change his mind for him accepting the idea. All the people she cared about were dying, and he was trying to convince her how much they would be happy in the Twilight dimension. It's a bad knowledge of Buffy...