Buffy ep by ep; EMPTY PLACES-bootyshaking and heartbreaking

[Icarium]

Yes, she said it but that's telling not showing. If she had claimed that Gachnar, the fear demon, was her toughest adversary ever, would you have believed that too?

She was fighting evil itself.

Yet, the very same thing was almost literally laughed off the stage in Amends. And oldest evil or not, once we go to end of the world level of danger (which for Buffy happened way back in The Harvest), it's bit impossible to up the ante, you know.

 

[zobothehobo]

Yes, she said it but that's telling not showing. If she had claimed that Gachnar, the fear demon, was her toughest adversary ever, would you have believed that too?

Um... I used that quote because it's the best way I've heard it described and it backed up my point. Not because Buffy said it. She said lots of things I don't agree with or believe... like for instance, Riley's cool. Never believed that one. In this case, I agree with her... but it's not because she said it.

Yet, the very same thing was almost literally laughed off the stage in Amends. And oldest evil or not, once we go to end of the world level of danger (which for Buffy happened way back in The Harvest), it's bit impossible to up the ante, you know.

No. I do not know. There's different degrees. I mean how could you possibly say The Harvest was the same amount of threat as Glory or The First... or even the events of Prophecy Girl when the hellmouth opened?

 

[Icarium]

I can say because the show says it. Sure, they later retconned it in The Wish when it turned out that The Master didn't even conquer Sunnydale, let alone ended the world but Buffy wasn't to know that back in the Harvest. The thing at stake in that episode is very clearly the fate of the entire world:

Buffy: Got anything that can make this day any worse?
Giles: How about the end of the world?
Buffy: Knew I could count on you.

 

[zobothehobo]

I can say because the show says it. Sure, they later retconned it in The Wish when it turned out that The Master didn't even conquer Sunnydale, let alone ended the world but Buffy wasn't to know that back in the Harvest. The thing at stake in that episode is very clearly the fate of the entire world:

Buffy: Got anything that can make this day any worse?
Giles: How about the end of the world?
Buffy: Knew I could count on you.

The world ending itself doesn't get any worse... but fight does. Fighting The First is harder than fighting Luke. It's like walking somewhere with weights. The walk and distance doesn't get farther... but the walk is harder.

 

[Icarium]

Fighting The First is harder than fighting Luke. It's like walking somewhere with weights. The walk and distance doesn't get farther... but the walk is harder.

Luke, maybe. But The Master and Glory (especially the latter) were supposed to be stronger than Buffy. The Judge and Teh Mayor were supposedly invulnerable. And you can't possibly convince me that emotional punch of Angel, Faith, Giles Willow and Joyce all at various points turning again Buffy wasn't far greater than the First showing up and making some lame threats, which was what passed for psychological warfare in S7. So what exactly is the special of the threat in S7? That it threatened Spike, the most special guy ever and Buffy's bestest friend and only confidant in the whole world?

 

[zobothehobo]

Luke, maybe. But The Master and Glory (especially the latter) were supposed to be stronger than Buffy. The Judge and Teh Mayor were supposedly invulnerable. And you can't possibly convince me that emotional punch of Angel, Faith, Giles Willow and Joyce all at various points turning again Buffy wasn't far greater than the First showing up and making some lame threats, which was what passed for psychological warfare in S7. So what exactly is the special of the threat in S7? That it threatened Spike, the most special guy ever and Buffy's bestest friend and only confidant in the whole world?

No... still fighting evil and fighting the reason evil exists are on two separate planes. Glory was stronger than Buffy... but The First was stronger than Glory. That makes The First a bigger threat.

 

[Icarium]

This distinction would be relevant if Buffy actually believed whatever The First claimed about itself and if she was trying to erase it out of existence, instead of merely defeating its minions. Following your reasoning she should be in panic at the end of Chosen too since The First obviously can't be killed by an explosion...

 

[Nikkolas]

Warning. This post is infused with my utter loathing of every last Potential with no exception.

Okay, first, let me be frank. I am totally and completely biased against every last Potential. They are a sniveling, worthless, annoying, idiotic bunch of ingrates that deserved to have their eyes gouged out by Caleb. The two he killed got off lucky.

No episode embodies my hatred for them more than this one.

Not only are these insensitive oafs pushing Buffy out of her own house, they use and manipulate Faith. Faith, God bless her free spirit, was just trying to have fun. However she came off as the "cool aunt". Ya know the one you go to when your mom or dad tells you that you can't do something.

This made the small-minded Potentials cling to her because Buffy was being quite the stern leader. God forbid her from insisting on discipline in a time of war when people are being killed left and right.

So yes, Faith gave the Potentials someone to rally around so they had an excuse to rebel against Buffy. You see, dim-witted as they may be, they understood how powerless and worthless they were. Faith could be the strong leader for them. She'd be a strong leader who took them out clubbing and the like. Yay!

So, that's just one of the deplorable acts they committed that gets overlooked a bit.

Now let's get to the kicking Buffy out of her own house.

Rona: Ding dong the witch is dead. (directed at Buffy leaving HER OWN HOUSE)
The witch is dead...the witch who is the only reason you're not a dead bitch. Rhyming for the win.
But seriously, Rona, who saved your ass from the Turok-Han? Oh right, Buffy. And what use have you added to the group? oh, none.

Kennedy: Why are you always standing up for [Buffy]?

I dunno...maybe because she's been her closest friend for over half-a-decade, saved her life, saved the world, DIED for the world and her family....is that good enough reason to stick up for Buffy yet little Miss Skank?

More proof of their stupidity is how easily they forgot what Buffy did for them in regards to the Turok-Han. Ya know how she chose to fight it one-on-one in front of all of them? Now, the thing had pretty much almost killed her before. It gave her one of the most savage beatings of her life. Yet she told Willow to have her barrier fail so the ubervamp could be lead into the deathmatch. And all to inspire confidence in the potentials.

SHe risked her life to do this. Hell, she risked her life the first time when she went out looking for the one idiotic Potential who had run away and died. So, what's that? Two selfless acts by Buffy for the sake of these subhumans.

What's her reward? Look no further than the quotes I showed off and this episode.

Fact is, Buffy was right. She knew Caleb was guarding something. But the Potentials would rather hoist leadership upon the inexperienced (in terms of being a commander) Faith and forget everything Buffy had ever done for them.

I hear people make excuses for the snot-nosed brats all the time too. "Waaahhh. Buffy wasn't being nice and connecting with them!" So what?! It's a time of war and crisis. Your lives are at stake. She doesn't have to be your pal. If you wanted to be with friends and have fun, why not just stay with your Watchers and families and get killed? God knows I wouldn't miss any of you.

Buffy had the power and the experience to be the leader and the Potentials lacked both strength and brains. They were in no position to criticize her. That's all there is to it.

The Potentials suck and thus this episode sucks.

 

[Icarium]

More proof of their stupidity is how easily they forgot what Buffy did for them in regards to the Turok-Han. Ya know how she chose to fight it one-on-one in front of all of them? Now, the thing had pretty much almost killed her before. It gave her one of the most savage beatings of her life. Yet she told Willow to have her barrier fail so the ubervamp could be lead into the deathmatch. And all to inspire confidence in the potentials.

Yes, Buffy beating the bad guy through pure luck after it had beaten her but decided not to finish her off for some arcane reason really should have inspired the Potentials. Oh, wait.

There are plenty of reason for everybody in the group to not trust Buffy, the most obvious being her lunatic support of Spike and the fact that she claimed not to trust them either. Even if we reduce the ability to inspire trust to the ability to kill bad guys, the fact that Caleb had just kicked her ass in an extremely convincing fashion should have been quite telling for the Potentials, don't you think?

Fact is, Buffy was right. She knew Caleb was guarding something.

How exactly did she know that? She read the script?

So yes, Faith gave the Potentials someone to rally around so they had an excuse to rebel against Buffy.

To quote Xander: I don't need an excuse. I think lots of dead people actually constitutes a reason.".

Buffy had the power and the experience to be the leader and the Potentials lacked both strength and brains.

Still not seeing how the Potentials (or anyone with two braincells to rub together) are dumber than S7 Buffy.

I hear people make excuses for the snot-nosed brats all the time too. "Waaahhh. Buffy wasn't being nice and connecting with them!" So what?! It's a time of war and crisis. Your lives are at stake. She doesn't have to be your pal.

She doesn't have to but despite Buffy's million stupid speeches, she was not leading an actual army. Yelling at people can and often is a terribly counter-productive way of leadership. Heck, the show itself was firmly against military-style leadership prior to S7, most obviously in S4. The Potentials weren't model followers, true, but then again Buffy was the polar opposite of a model leader.

 

[Nikkolas]

Yes, Buffy beating the bad guy through pure luck after it had beaten her but decided not to finish her off for some arcane reason really should have inspired the Potentials. Oh, wait.

The thing is pretty much as stupid as the Potentials were. It probably thought she was dead.

She beat it the second time and in front of witnesses. They should be inspired that their leader put her life on the line for them...again.

There are plenty of reason for everybody in the group to not trust Buffy, the most obvious being her lunatic support of Spike and the fact that she claimed not to trust them either.

Well Spike has only been a valuable ally against the other toughest Big Bad (Glory), as well as showing his infinite regret for what he's done once he got his soul back.

It's not like we've seen a vampire before who had a soul and this made him nice and helpful. Oh wait.

Fact is, Buffy is way more trustworthy than Giles. You see, old Ripper has said in the past they all should trust her. Then he goes and distracts her while Wood tries to kill Spike.

Stupid Buffy. Distrusting the guy who lies right to your face.

How exactly did she know that? She read the script?

It's called inferring.

Why else would Caleb station himself and his forces at this place? Just because?

To quote Xander: I don't need an excuse. I think lots of dead people actually constitutes a reason.".

They didn't rebel against Faith. I think I'll just call them Lemmings instead of Potentials from now on.

Still not seeing how the Potentials (or anyone with two braincells to rub together) are dumber than S7 Buffy.

Maybe you need glasses then since she was the only person who was right on her whole team.

She doesn't have to but despite Buffy's million stupid speeches, she was not leading an actual army. Yelling at people can and often is a terribly counter-productive way of leadership. Heck, the show itself was firmly against military-style leadership prior to S7, most obviously in S4. The Potentials weren't model followers, true but then again Buffy was the polar opposite of a model leader.

What is it with the haters and whining about Buffy's speeches? She's been making them the whole series.
It's called being inspirational. And it's not even vaguely important.

As for her not being a model leader, I'd say her saving the world a couple times has proven she can lead. Or was everything that happened at the end of Season 4 and 5 a horrible accident?

 

[Icarium]

The thing is pretty much as stupid as the Potentials were. It probably thought she was dead.

She beat it the second time and in front of witnesses. They should be inspired that their leader put her life on the line for them...again.

She beat it the second time...sure. Only I would have been more impressed if she had a made a plan to beat it other than "I go there unarmed and hope for the best". With the bonus of bringing all the girls she was supposed to be protecting with her, so they could be conveniently slaughtered in case Buffy failed. Or as one old recap puts it:

"How many times have we had it pointed out on this show that the thing that separates Buffy from the rest of the Slayers is all of her connections to the human world? And how many times would Buffy have been well and truly ****ed if it weren't for the teamwork of the Scoobs? Right. So if this whole set-up was a plan, wouldn't it have been more effective to show these green proto-Slayers that being the Slayer doesn't automatically mean you have to face all the trials and tribulations alone? Couldn't they have made use of everyone's talents in the group? Or at least brought some freakin' weapons. Especially in light of Buffy's speech about everyone doing their part. Instead, all they learned was not to **** with Buffy. (And don't even get me started on how improbable Buffy's win here was.) Alternatively, I was hoping Buffy would show the Slayer Hopefuls that by using their wits, regular people can fight evil too."

Compare and contrast to Buffy's approach to dealing with Glory and Adam, the previous adversary that had proven stronger than her in the initial fights (my problems with the Gift have to do with the Summers blood nonsense, not the defeat of Glory).

Why else would Caleb station himself and his forces at this place? Just because?

It's called a trap. Who the hell is dumb enough to put a trap in the one place they don't want Buffy to go? Conveniently enough, it turns out that yes, Caleb is dumb enough to do it but Buffy had no way of knowing that.

Well Spike has only been a valuable ally against the other toughest Big Bad (Glory), as well as showing his infinite regret for what he's done once he got his soul back.

Infinite regret? You are joking, right?

It's not like we've seen a vampire before who had a soul and this made him nice and helpful.

Angel didn't have a trigger in his head put by the Big Bad, you know. Trusting Spike's trigger isn't trusting Spike, it's trusting the First.

What is it with the haters and whining about Buffy's speeches? She's been making them the whole series.

Care to quote some that are nearly as stupid and long as those in S7?

As for her not being a model leader, I'd say her saving the world a couple times has proven she can lead. Or was everything that happened at the end of Season 4 and 5 a horrible accident?

She isn't a model leader in S7, I should have clarified that. But since you brought it up, I think she was a freaking moron in The Gift too and succeeded only because Joss failed logic forever.

Stupid Buffy. Distrusting the guy who lies right to your face.

It's not just Giles, Buffy explicitly states she trusts only Spike.

 

[Nikkolas]

I'll concede to you on almost everything because Season 7 is not worth defending.

But I can't let a slight against my beloved Season 5 go unargued.

But since you brought it up, I think she was a freaking moron in The Gift too and succeeded only because Joss failed logic forever.

Her plan was to attack Glory with everything and anything they had to stall for time. It was as good a plan as any given the circumstances. Nothing else they could have done really apart from just killing Dawn.
Or do you think she should have done that?

And what's wrong with her dying to save Dawn? When the monks made her, somehow the energies of the Key were changed into Dawn's life essence or blood. In makin ga Summers, they made Summers blood. While Buffy shouldn't be able to open the gate like Dawn did, it makes sense that her dying and ceasing the flow of Summers blood should work.

Honestly the only glaring logical failure in Season 5 to my eyes is the knights. An ancient order of humans made to combat a being who's only been on Earth for like...twenty years is kind of strange.

 

[zobothehobo]

Ok... So I just re-watched Dirty Girls and Empty Places and tried to look at it from everyone else's point of view. I still don't see it. Buffy had a logical line of thinking that she spelled out for them. She also had slayer intuition and 7 years of experience to give credit to that slayer intuition. Also, by that point, it was already stated Buffy was one of the most successful and best Slayers that ever lived. I think every last person in this episode was being ungrateful, stupid, and rude. And just like Nikkolas, I hate the potentials with a seething passion. I wish much harm to each and every one of them. Most of all Kennedy... second Rona. But they're all stupid ungrateful bitches. All season they act like Buffy doesn't know what she's doing and they question her like this is her first apocalypse. They all need to shut the hell up and let her lead.

As I've said before being a leader means sometimes not being the most popular person in the room. In the words of Giles "Being a general means making the hard choices. Any one of us are expendable in this war." That was his reason for not trusting Spike. His actions in this episode seem to be out of spite. Like he goes against what he actually thinks and believes to spite Buffy because she said she was done with him. Another example of this is letting the girls go out to the Bronze... wasn't it him who three episodes earlier threw a FIT because Buffy, Xander, and Willow were joking about dating? Saying social things have no importance at the moment and holding up those awful flashcards yelling about how that stuff happens and they need to focus on training?

Don't get me started on Anya's little ditty. I mean yes she worked for it! What the hell does Anya think the last 7 years were? Buffy sitting on her ass and evil saying "ok, we'll stop ourselves now"? And her dying twice... that doesn't count for ANYTHING does it?

Xander gets off because of his eye... totally understandable.

Wood... WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH HIM? He's not been there long enough to have an opinion on the matter. I think Wood was also disagreeing with Buffy to spite her. Spike lives and he's pissed. Now, unlike Giles, Wood has a right to be pissed... but he's not been around long enough to have a right to weigh in on anything.

I know this post is a lot of repeating what I've already said in this thread... but watching it again, I felt it necessary to share it all.

 

[saturn5]

Buffy forgives the gang and the gang forgive her, everyone makes mistakes and thankfully in the Scoobygang forgiveness is for all, maybe Buffy needs to spank Dawn etc but I'm sure they cuddle afterwards

 

[Username]

I don't have the strength to read through all the posts in this thread, so sorry if I'm repeating something, but I just watched this episode and I am so mad I am like shaking, and I have seen this episode before.

The look on Buffy's face when everybody turns against her breaks my heart, and when she looks for support in her best friend Willow and Willow just looks away, that is the lowest thing anyone has ever done the show! I love Willow but what a f#cking shitty thing to do, she can't even look Buffy in the eye, doesn't she at least deserve that.
And Anya's bullshit speach about Buffy being luckier than them because she's the slayer, what the ****! Yeah Buffy's the slayer, but at least she uses her powers to help and save poeple, unlike a certain former vengeance demon.

Okey,I´m taking this way too seriously but it just pisses me off...

One thing that I did enjoy watching this episode though was Anya's and Andrew's little lecture for the potentials in the basement, funny!

 

[kadrikaur]

About the house being also Dawns'. Well, correct me if I'm mistaken, but since Buffy is Dawns' guardian (Dawn being under-aged and their father not quite in the picture) doesn't it mean that Buffy has control over everything that Dawn happens to own, so the house is actually all Buffys', at least until Dawn is of legal age or goes to court to have Buffy kicked out.
So basically, yeah, Dawn lives in the house but only because Buffy hasn't shipped her off to live with their father. Someone is being a bit ungrateful, if you ask me.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Buffy was right, Buffy was wrong, everybody was right, everybody was wrong... it doesn't matter! You don't kick someone out of their OWN house, you don't have the right! That was so cruel and inhuman. Buffy is a human just like them. Forget the bit where she is the Slayer. You can't do that to someone!

 

[Icarium]

Then again no one kicked actually her out from the house, she chose to leave.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Then again no one kicked actually her out from the house, she chose to leave.

Actually, Dawn told Buffy that if she doesn't agree with them, she should leave, that it's her (Dawn's) house too. Dawn kicked her out mostly.

 

[Icarium]

Buffy left on her own accord. Whether Dawn agreed or not is irrelevant.