Buffy ep by ep; EMPTY PLACES-bootyshaking and heartbreaking

Icarium said:
Buffy left on her own accord. Whether Dawn agreed or not is irrelevant.
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Buffy would have stayed there. She wouldn't have left in the middle of the appocalypse. Even Spike says that. He understood that Buffy wouldn't have left in this situation. They gave her no choice, she just gave up, she felt beaten. Good thing Spike realized what had happened and brought her back to the fight scene. The even tried fooling Spike that Buffy left by her own. It wasn't true, as it was presented.
 
Forgot to mention that I actually believe that Buffy is better than others. I mean, she was seen worthy enough to get into heaven, so that kindof hints that she is good and worthy of redemption and all that. But she's definitely not lucky - getting killed, dragged out of heaven, having to leave her previous life to take care of and feed Dawn (plus all the potentials), etc. Being lucky means winning in the lottery or getting a date with the hottest guy in the galaxy.

About her having to lead and not being besties with all the potentials. I think it was easier not to know everything about them, because it is already hard for her to send her friends into the battle and if she took the time to learn about the potentials, she maybe wouldn't be able to do what was needed - treat them as soldiers in a war. Yes, they were dragged from their previous lives and all, but it was either that or be killed by the guys-whose-names-I-can't-remember (sorry, reading about Russia and a potential new Cold War so I'm not quite in Buffy-mode). A leader has to step up and take control. Although she has messed up and the previous assault on Caleb was not the most successful one, she herself said that SHE WAS WILLING TO TALK STRATEGY AND LISTEN TO WHAT OTHER HAD TO SAY, BUT THIS WAS THE PLAN. And if they had been willing to think about it, then Andrew and Spike would have come and proven her right. You know, just saying.

And I must say that Faith and the potentials raiding an arsenal is actually the same as Buffy wanting to go to the vinyard, so who's the stupid one now?



All are welcome to point out flaws in my theories, cause as I said, busy reading about Russia and I might have missed something important (or a whole lot of important).
 
Chosen Enemy
Chosen Enemy
The flaw in your theories is that it's all true IMO, I agree with everything
Even Spike says that. He understood that Buffy wouldn't have left in this situation. They gave her no choice, she just gave up, she felt beaten. Good thing Spike realized what had happened and brought her back to the fight scene. The even tried fooling Spike that Buffy left by her own. It wasn't true, as it was presented.
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I am sure the idea was to make Spike look better by making everyone "betray" Buffy but him but he wasn't there. Whatever he says is even more irrelevant than what Dawn says. Buffy made a bluff, the rest called her on her, that was it. If I threaten to jump through the window if I don't get a million dollars right now, whoever refuses to give it to me isn't really to blame if I go ahead and jump, are they? Buffy is the one who says she couldn't watch someone else lead the group before Dawn says anything about leaving.
 
Icarium said:
I am sure the idea was to make Spike look better by making everyone "betray" Buffy but him but he wasn't there. Whatever he says is even more irrelevant than what Dawn says. Buffy made a bluff, the rest called her on her, that was it. If I threaten to jump through the window if I don't get a million dollars right now, whoever refuses to give it to me isn't really to blame if I go ahead and jump, are they? Buffy is the one who says she couldn't watch someone else lead the group before Dawn says anything about leaving.
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But isn't the winner in a poker game the one who has the best bluff? And well, I don't actually consider the things she said as bluffing. She had a feeling about the vinyard being important and the thing with slayer-intuition is that it's almost always right. And Buffy said that she couldn't watch someone lead the group into DISASTER, what eventually happened. I'm not saying that all Buffy says or does is right but she always pulls it through, people just have to give her a chance and believe in her.
 
Agree about Buffy kicking herself out. Dawn's saying "You can't stay here" is a way of saying "We're not willing to follow you". Faith raised the point that it's not just about others willing to follow Buffy but if Buffy can actually step back and follow. She's not willing to follow but her leaving and saying what she said to Faith, means that she actually is leaving of her own accord. She is stepping aside but not willing to stay and follow.
 
Kana said:
Agree about Buffy kicking herself out. Dawn's saying "You can't stay here" is a way of saying "We're not willing to follow you". Faith raised the point that it's not just about others willing to follow Buffy but if Buffy can actually step back and follow. She's not willing to follow but her leaving and saying what she said to Faith, means that she actually is leaving of her own accord. She is stepping aside but not willing to stay and follow.
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I think it may be hard for her to follow because all that has ever been asked of her is to lead. If something like that is rooted in you than it's hard to step aside and let others lead. Especially if you're not sure what will be the outcome of it all. There are those who lead and those who follow and we all know into which category Buffy falls. And as a true leader she encouraged Faith to take control and care for the potentials.
 
But isn't the winner in a poker game the one who has the best bluff? And well, I don't actually consider the things she said as bluffing. She had a feeling about the vinyard being important and the thing with slayer-intuition is that it's almost always right.
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The Slayer intuition thing is pure fanon. Prophetic dreams, yes. Buffy's human intuition, yes. Slayer intuition, no. Not to mention, Faith happens to be a Slayer too and if the reason the rest should follow Buffy is because of this intuition thing, they might as well follow Faith. So yes, while I do think picking Faith as a leader was the height of idiocy, not following Buffy's hunches is perfectly normal behaviour. She could offer some plan based on something other than the itching in her left big toe or she could have had a hissy fit and left. She chose to behave like ten year old. Too bad.
 
T
TheVoid68
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Icarium said:
I am sure the idea was to make Spike look better by making everyone "betray" Buffy but him but he wasn't there. Whatever he says is even more irrelevant than what Dawn says.
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This is the most ridiculous thing I have heard about this episode. Icarium, you seem to love to talk about literally EVERYTHING as a plot device. We could literally do that for EVERYTHING that happens in the show. This thread is not for that. This thread is for talking about what happened... not why it happened or the idea the writers had...

Buffy made a bluff, the rest called her on her, that was it. If I threaten to jump through the window if I don't get a million dollars right now, whoever refuses to give it to me isn't really to blame if I go ahead and jump, are they? Buffy is the one who says she couldn't watch someone else lead the group before Dawn says anything about leaving.
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Yeah, but she didn't make a bluff because what she said was TRUE. And threatening to jump out a window if you don't get a million dollars is REALLY not the same thing. Buffy didn't ask them to give her something insane or she was going to hurt herself. She as the general in the battle presented a logical reason for the next move and she asked everyone to get on board. In real war, the general wouldn't even do this. It's not "I'm willing to talk strategy," it's "you, go." As the general, she didn't HAVE to explain anything to her soldiers.... but she did. She knew this was extreme so she presented them with a good logical reason. If you see flaws in her logic, please tell me. Here, I'll quote you her logic.
No, that's just it. We've spent all this time worrying about the seal and the hellmouth. Why isn't Caleb guarding them? Why doesn't he have someone there protecting it? Why is he camped out at the vineyard? The bad guys always go where the power is. So if the seal was so important to Caleb and the First, they would be there right now. They're protecting the vineyard or something at the vineyard. I say it's their power, and I say it's time we go in and take it away from them.
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It's perfectly logical and reasonable to me. I heard this the FIRST TIME (before I knew she was right) and said "good point Buffy! Way to go with the thinking!"

And may I point out, I'm not sure it's someone else leading as much as it is someone else not doing what Buffy knows/feels is right. Standing by when someone you already despise takes the troops you've been working hard to train/protect into a battle you know is the wrong move... that must be really hard.

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Icarium said:
The Slayer intuition thing is pure fanon. Prophetic dreams, yes. Buffy's human intuition, yes. Slayer intuition, no. Not to mention, Faith happens to be a Slayer too and if the reason the rest should follow Buffy is because of this intuition thing, they might as well follow Faith. So yes, while I do think picking Faith as a leader was the height of idiocy, not following Buffy's hunches is perfectly normal behaviour. She could offer some plan based on something other than the itching in her left big toe or she could have had a hissy fit and left. She chose to behave like ten year old. Too bad.
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But Faith doesn't have the intuition Buffy does. See intuition can grow. Someone has a certain level of intuition but by experiencing, it can be almost trained. Not only that but Buffy had her slayer experience. Faith fought evil for a few months. Buffy fought evil for 7 years.
 
K
kadrikaur
Go girl, points well made!
I have already explained the flaws in Buffy's logic a few times in this very thread, you can just read those posts. Like here: "Who the hell is dumb enough to put a trap in the one place they don't want Buffy to go?"

This is the most ridiculous thing I have heard about this episode. Icarium, you seem to love to talk about literally EVERYTHING as a plot device. We could literally do that for EVERYTHING that happens in the show. This thread is not for that. This thread is for talking about what happened... not why it happened or the idea the writers had...
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Why it happened is relevant as to why the episode is so badly written. Start with the premise that it was never about Buffy or the Scoobs and it was all about glorifying Spike and the pieces start falling into place, I say.
 
Icarium said:
I have already explained the flaws in Buffy's logic a few times in this very thread, you can just read those posts. Like here: "Who the hell is dumb enough to put a trap in the one place they don't want Buffy to go?"
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that's a flaw in the First's logic, not Buffy's. I'll agree with you... the First was kind of stupid.


Why it happened is relevant as to why the episode is so badly written. Start with the premise that it was never about Buffy or the Scoobs and it was all about glorifying Spike and the pieces start falling into place, I say.
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But this thread and conversation isn't about that. It's about what actually happened and why WITHIN THE STORY it happened.
 
kadrikaur said:
I think it may be hard for her to follow because all that has ever been asked of her is to lead. If something like that is rooted in you than it's hard to step aside and let others lead. Especially if you're not sure what will be the outcome of it all. There are those who lead and those who follow and we all know into which category Buffy falls. And as a true leader she encouraged Faith to take control and care for the potentials.
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In actual fact I agree with this. I actually said so earlier on in this thread

Kana said:
In Buffy's defense, she's trying to be a leader and when she's asked to step aside, she does. I agree she didn't need to kick herself out (most likely because she isn't willing to follow Faith if it will apparently lead them into disaster) but she does empower Faith:

"Don't be afraid to lead them, whether you wanted it or not...Their lives are yours"

There was nothing hateful or aggressive about her assertion to Faith. I don't believe Buffy got it right all the time in Season 7 but I actually don't doubt she was really thinking about the mission...and Spike but that's part of Buffy's Mode De Vie.
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Dawn didn't kick Buffy out because she refused to agree with them, Buffy kicked herself out because they refused to agree with her.
 
Kana said:
In actual fact I agree with this. I actually said so earlier on in this thread
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Okay, so that we agree on.

But about Buffy kicking herself out - it's not like she could have just stayed after they all basically told her that they didn't trust her. It is hard to step aside and then actually watch as somebody else does the leading. I know how it hurts when you try to do everything with what you have but people fail to see or undestand it. Buffy is horrible when it comes to following, we have already witnessed that many times before. Situations like that mostly end with her knocking somebody out and then doing what she wanted to do in the first place. And I think that she wouldn't been able to just sit back while there was a voice in her head that kept saying to go to the vinyard.
 
that's a flaw in the First's logic, not Buffy's. I'll agree with you... the First was kind of stupid.
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No, it's a flaw in Buffy's logic too. She never stops to consider that. She thinks the First is rational and not brain dead. That's the whole basis of her plan. She assumes that Caleb is not protecting the Seal for some actual reason, not because he can't be bothered or something. So the fact that her theory requires Caleb to be protecting something in the very place he had lured her to, should have made her doubt its entire premise. Either Caleb and the First have a clue or not. If they don't, any course of action based on "If they are smart they should be..." isn't exactly rational, don't you think?

And the thing is, the argument is idiotic because the obvious thing to do would be to make sure there is anybody left at all at the vineyard. Then they coudl argue about the significance of the place. Not spout nonsense like "The bad guys always go where the power is".
 
Icarium said:
I am sure the idea was to make Spike look better by making everyone "betray" Buffy but him but he wasn't there.
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I'm not quite sure about this. I remember when I first saw the episode I kept thinking, when is Spike gonna get back and step up for Buffy? I think that there was no doubt that Spike would have gotten Buffy's back, so the idea possibly couldn't have been to make Spike look better. We all knew that HE wouldn't have betrayed Buffy like that, so the idea of making Spike look better by making everyone else betray her seems a bit far-fetched to me.
 
Icarium said:
"Who the hell is dumb enough to put a trap in the one place they don't want Buffy to go?"
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You mean when Buffy led the potentials into the Vineyard the first time?
I think the First and Caleb thought they were pretty invulnerable at this stage (not without reason) and that they would take Buffy's team out in one quick battle. They could have done that somewhere else but it didn't occur to them. Nearly worked too.

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It was Faith that was the surprise in that scenario. They hadn't counted on two slayers being there.
 
It was Faith that was the surprise in that scenario. They hadn't counted on two slayers being there.
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Considering that The First can spy on them with impunity whenever it wants this doesn't make any sense either.
 
Icarium said:
Considering that The First can spy on them with impunity whenever it wants this doesn't make any sense either.
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I'm not entirely sure, but maybe The First can do only one thing at a time, i.e. it can't spy on them AND listen to Caleb's latest sermon AND play house with the Turok-Han all at the same time. And it's obvious The First isn't a being that is completely governed by rationality and logic; in fact, it seems rather spiteful most of the time.
 
kadrikaur said:
About the house being also Dawns'. Well, correct me if I'm mistaken, but since Buffy is Dawns' guardian (Dawn being under-aged and their father not quite in the picture) doesn't it mean that Buffy has control over everything that Dawn happens to own, so the house is actually all Buffys', at least until Dawn is of legal age or goes to court to have Buffy kicked out.
So basically, yeah, Dawn lives in the house but only because Buffy hasn't shipped her off to live with their father. Someone is being a bit ungrateful, if you ask me.
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It's Dawn's house too, she's a Summer's girl, Joyce and Hank's blood runs in her veins as it does through Buffy's. It breaks Dawn's heart to chuck Buffy out but she thinks it's the right thing for everyone. Buffy forgives her and everyone else but each and every Scooby screws up from time to time and is forgiven, this is no different
 
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