Buffy's Boyfriends

[Mrs Gordo]

@DayDreamer27 I don't think Spike getting his soul cheapens Angel or Bangel at all. I think Spike and Darla getting their souls back show the specialness of Angel making himself into a champion. It challenges the idea that the soul was a special privilege awarded only to Angel. The soul merely provides the opportunity for change.

I agree with you to the extent that the soul provides a vehicle for change. The only problem is when the soul afforded to Spike prompts an essential retelling of a story you already heard (except the first draft was better):

https://mrsgordo84.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F173268431960

S6 spuffy doesn't cheapen Bangel. It highlights the distinctions between the two dynamics very vividly. S7 - that I still am not sure what Joss was going for there. Why the deliberate and obvious parallels?

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

S6 spuffy doesn't cheapen Bangel. It highlights the distinctions between the two dynamics very vividly. S7 - that I still am not sure what Joss was going for there. Why the deliberate and obvious parallels?

To highlight the differences, I would say. Spike's arc in S7 is all about winning back Buffy. Angel's arc in S3 is about him figuring out his place in the universe and deciding it would be best for him to leave Buffy and fight the good fight on its own. When souled Spike arrives in LA, he is completely unconcerned with redemption or helping the helpless, but slowly starts a cockfight with Angel that sets him on the path of being a second champion. Angel did not have any incentives to fight, before the Shanshu, I guess, but he swears that off several times.

Can I say that I really hate Angel's Helpless speech? In S1 and 2, we see Angel slowly coming to trust and admire Buffy. Then in Helpless, he reveals that he fell in love with her while watching her brag to her girlfriends about the mind games she is playing with her boyfriend, because he apparently saw her heart. Whoever wrote that was sleeping on the job.

Post automatically merged: Apr 25, 2018

Ha! I feel I am just here these days, so people have someone to argue with 😛 I am happy with 43 % 🙂

 

[DeadlyDuo]

If you really wanna argue about it, the Gypsies had the power to make a 100 souled vampires just as the shadow men could have created an army of slayers if they had wanted to.

But they didn't. The shadow men made one slayer so they could control her, whilst the gypsies ensouled only Angelus because they wanted to punish him for killing the gypsy girl. The gypsy ensoulment was born out of vengeance, not goodwill. It's why having Spike choosing to get a soul for Buffy isn't a heartwarming romantic gesture but an act of self-inflicting eternal punishment.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

But they didn't. The shadow men made one slayer so they could control her, whilst the gypsies ensouled only Angelus because they wanted to punish him for killing the gypsy girl. The gypsy ensoulment was born out of vengeance, not goodwill. It's why having Spike choosing to get a soul for Buffy isn't a heartwarming romantic gesture but an act of self-inflicting eternal punishment.

I guess...

 

[thetopher]

Can I say that I really hate Angel's Helpless speech? In S1 and 2, we see Angel slowly coming to trust and admire Buffy. Then in Helpless, he reveals that he fell in love with her while watching her brag to her girlfriends about the mind games she is playing with her boyfriend, because he apparently saw her heart.

Yeah, I agree with this, but this could just be simple Angel-projection. From his perspective, looking back, of course he's going to feel like he loved her at first sight and saw her heart or whatever, given how important she became to him and realizations about himself.
However watching Buffy S1 this clearly ins't how Angel reacts around Buffy initially; he's cagey and mysterious, he clearly likes her but he's not pining for her like some love-sick guy.

 

[Cheese Slices]

Yeah, I agree with this, but this could just be simple Angel-projection. From his perspective, looking back, of course he's going to feel like he loved her at first sight and saw her heart or whatever, given how important she became to him and realizations about himself.
However watching Buffy S1 this clearly ins't how Angel reacts around Buffy initially; he's cagey and mysterious, he clearly likes her but he's not pining for her like some love-sick guy.

I always found his behavior in S1 quite jarring. The writers didn't seem sure how to handle him, so they started with him being sassy and teasing, and then somehow along the way he justs turns into the brooding puppy we know and love. That being said, I think it sort of works in regards to the events of Angel, but still it could have been handled more subtly.

 

[thetopher]

I always found his behavior in S1 quite jarring. The writers didn't seem sure how to handle him, so they started with him being sassy and teasing, and then somehow along the way he justs turns into the brooding puppy we know and love.

I took it to be- in those first two episodes- Angel is playing a role that isn't him; cocky, smarmy and knowing, but Buffy pretty much see's through it.
Her question 'You do have friends don't you?' sort of cuts right through to Angel's fundamental loneliness and his facade disappears and they sortof have a little connection moment.
Afterwards he still maintains a distance but there's no facade to be seen.

 

[Cheese Slices]

I took it to be- in those first two episodes- Angel is playing a role that isn't him; cocky, smarmy and knowing, but Buffy pretty much see's through it.
Her question 'You do have friends don't you?' sort of cuts right through to Angel's fundamental loneliness and his facade disappears and they sortof have a little connection moment.
Afterwards he still maintains a distance but there's no facade to be seen.

Yeah, that's why I think it ultimately works, but it took me a while to ..buy it I guess ? Maybe it's because I have some issues with DB's acting in the first two seasons : I don't feel that there is more to Angel that meets the eye; I know it, but he doesn't make me feel it, if that makes sense. But overall I agree with you.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, that's why I think it ultimately works, but it took me a while to ..buy it I guess ?

I get that. The only episode that I really like DB's acting in S1 Is...'Angel' (luckily enough given the subject), but I think he improves a lot in S2 right from the off and immediately gets more layers.

 

[RomanticSoul]

It's why having Spike choosing to get a soul for Buffy isn't a heartwarming romantic gesture but an act of self-inflicting eternal punishment.

But is it really a punishment for Spike? We never see Spike at odds with or struggling with the fact that the body is still very much animated by a demonic presence. So the urges to do evil are still there. But there is no conflict in Spike. So after a few weeks of craziness, it seems like Spike is just fine. No conflict, no urges, no major differences in his basic character. He's still Spike. For me it was basically like the creators were all 'well we gave him a soul so he can have a clean slate and get Buffy but that's all it's good for because we will not change him in any significant way'. To me that ultimately cheapens everything about his character because really, if nothing changes why bother with the soul? Just so he can get a shot at the girl again? How lame. Though I guess some would say, well that's why he got the soul in the first place so he already achieved everything from this arc.

 

[EarthLogic]

Can I say that I really hate Angel's Helpless speech? In S1 and 2, we see Angel slowly coming to trust and admire Buffy. Then in Helpless, he reveals that he fell in love with her while watching her brag to her girlfriends about the mind games she is playing with her boyfriend, because he apparently saw her heart. Whoever wrote that was sleeping on the job.

Yeah it bothers me too, mainly because it's not actually what we see in Becoming. There he first squints as if he doesn't yet know what he is supposed to be looking for (not sure if he would have heard what she was saying about boys since the car seemed quite a distance from the school entrance) . Then later as he sees her cry as her parents argue he has tears in his eyes, clearly feeling empathy and compassion.

So I have to reason that Angel is just projecting his feelings retrospectively onto his memories, the way someone in love might look back to figure out at what point it happened. Wes actually does the same thing in s5 with Fred, only it's much more saccharine: "I've loved you since I've known you... Maybe even before".. . 😕
Actually compared to this Angel's statement seems bearable and more sensible!

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Yeah it bothers me too, mainly because it's not actually what we see in Becoming. There he first squints as if he doesn't yet know what he is supposed to be looking for (not sure if he would have heard what she was saying about boys since the car seemed quite a distance from the school entrance) . Then later as he sees her cry as her parents argue he has tears in his eyes, clearly feeling empathy and compassion.

So I have to reason that Angel is just projecting his feelings retrospectively onto his memories, the way someone in love might look back to figure out at what point it happened. Wes actually does the same thing in s5 with Fred, only it's much more saccharine: "I've loved you since I've known you... Maybe even before".. . 😕
Actually compared to this Angel's statement seems bearable and more sensible!

The worst thing is that there is so much that Angel could have said here. All he needs to do is prove to Buffy that she is more than her super powers. It should be the easiest thing in the world for him.

Wesley's love for Fred always reminded me of his infatuation with Cordelia, so I have no problem accepting him saying stupid stuff like that. Nor does the childishness of Welsey's infatuation ruin the emotional power of Fred dying in his arms. Still sad... 🙁

 

[Cheese Slices]

But is it really a punishment for Spike? We never see Spike at odds with or struggling with the fact that the body is still very much animated by a demonic presence. So the urges to do evil are still there. But there is no conflict in Spike. So after a few weeks of craziness, it seems like Spike is just fine. No conflict, no urges, no major differences in his basic character. He's still Spike. For me it was basically like the creators were all 'well we gave him a soul so he can have a clean slate and get Buffy but that's all it's good for because we will not change him in any significant way'. To me that ultimately cheapens everything about his character because really, if nothing changes why bother with the soul? Just so he can get a shot at the girl again? How lame. Though I guess some would say, well that's why he got the soul in the first place so he already achieved everything from this arc.

The issue here is that you're using Angel as a template, but why would he represent the standard souled/unsouled dichotomy ? (save from his being the first to experience it). I do see a difference between soulless and souled Spike, only it's less clear cut than Angel (and even this is up to debate, I dont' wholly buy it), because Spike and Angel were always different, as humans and as vampires. Not to mention that Spike's chip represented an intermediate state during which he couldn't hurt anyone, thus 'helping' him transition between soulless and souled state.

 

[Antho]

I think the "Helpless" speech bothers everyone, including the most die hard Bangel fans. Personnally, I put the blame on the producers, it's not the character or the actor's fault if the writers don't even know how to write with continuity a character they created themselves !

Off topic but since I have seen people discuss this topic : I never saw the difference between soulless Spike and soulful Spike. One of my biggest problem with season 7 along with some others. Whatever the writers tried to prove, I think they missed the mark, at least with me.

 

[Cheese Slices]

It's honestly baffling to me that some people don't see the difference between soulless Spike and soulful Spike : he is softer, more melancholy, gives people (and Buffy especially) the space they need, offers to leave town for everyone's benefit, ... It's all there, and James Marsters portrays it wonderfully and subtly. It's definitely less black and white and clear cut than with Angel (since soulless Angel and soulless Spike are very different), but it's there.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Off topic but since I have seen people discuss this topic : I never saw the difference between soulless Spike and soulful Spike. One of my biggest problem with season 7 along with some others. Whatever the writers tried to prove, I think they missed the mark, at least with me.

Well, if souled Spike is just like Angel and unsouled Spike is just like souled Spike, then Angel must be just like unsouled Spike. Hmmm! Something must be wrong with that syllogism.

Souled Spike doesn't rape people or torture people or kill innocents and sometimes he is able to think outside of his own immediate wants or experience remorse. Just because he isn't suddenly a saint doesn't mean there hasn't been no great changes. Also, Spike feels forced to assume his old Spikelus persona in order to stay useful to Buffy. Spikelus's swagger and self-confidence is a useful shield for souled Spike.

 

[Antho]

Maybe both of you are right, it would have make season 7 far more interesting to me to actually see things like you see them. But the thing is if I don't feel it I dont' feel it. I guess it's too much subtle for me. And I'm wondering what is the point of season 4-5-6 which show that Spike is a "special" vampire capable of showing some humanity without a soul. If he can be like that by himself so what's the point to have a soul ? What's the difference ?

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Maybe both of you are right, it would have make season 7 far more interesting to me to actually see things like you see them. But the thing is if I don't feel it I dont' feel it. I guess it's too much subtle for me. And I'm wondering what is the point of season 4-5-6 which show that Spike is a "special" vampire capable of showing some humanity without a soul. If he can be like that by himself so what's the point to have a soul ? What's the difference ?

There is absolutely nothing subtle about it. Spike stalks and hounds Buffy and when she tries to break away from him, he tries to rape her.

 

[EarthLogic]

The worst thing is that there is so much that Angel could have said here. All he needs to do is prove to Buffy that she is more than her super powers. It should be the easiest thing in the world for him.

Maybe David Fury was having a lazy writing day?

I think the sentiment behind what Angel says is fine; the problem is the example he gives goes against what we have seen for ourselves of that moment. And actually you wouldn't need to change the whole speech to make it work - all he needed to say is that he saw her before she became the slayer (true) and he could see then that shallowness wasn't all there was to her (also true), so now he would still love her without her powers. It's the 'I loved you because I could see your heart' bit that sounds silly. I do however really like the funny undercut of 'or taken literally incredibly gross' - I think it's great. It makes me laugh and just about saves the scene from being too romantically cliched, which is why I don't hate the speech outright.

Wesley's love for Fred always reminded me of his infatuation with Cordelia, so I have no problem accepting him saying stupid stuff like that. Nor does the childishness of Welsey's infatuation ruin the emotional power of Fred dying in his arms. Still sad... 🙁

I agree the poignancy of Fred's death is very powerful there - and IMO that's entirely down to the brilliance of Amy and Alexis' acting. If you take the dialogue on its own, it's a bit cringey and I think that's because it's being played totally straight. There's nothing there which subtly critiques Wesley's idealised love for Fred; it's very much sold as a tragic romance for both of them.

 

[Antho]

There is absolutely nothing subtle about it. Spike stalks and hounds Buffy and when she tries to break away from him, he tries to rape her.

Is this irony ? Didn't we talk about season 7 ? you lost me