Buffy's Boyfriends

I agree the poignancy of Fred's death is very strong there - and IMO that's entirely down to the brilliance of Amy and Alexis' acting. If you take the dialogue on its own, it's a bit cringey and I think that's because it's being played totally straight. There's nothing there which subtly critiques Wesley's idealised love for Fred; it's very much sold as a tragic romance for both of them.
I didn't mean to say that Wesley's comment was some brilliant meta-commentary. I just meant that Wesley's love for Fred is consistently idiotic, so that specific line did not bother me. Angel love's for Buffy, on the other hand, is clearly established as being made of more solid stuff than seeing her heart in a moment where her heart seems completely hidden. Buffy exposes her heart time and time again. Make Angel bring up those times.
Is this irony ? Didn't we talk about season 7 ? you lost me
You asked why the Spike from S4-5-6 needed a soul to be good and you said it was too subtle for you to understand. It left me somewhat baffled.
 
I think the "Helpless" speech bothers everyone, including the most die hard Bangel fans. Personnally, I put the blame on the producers, it's not the character or the actor's fault if the writers don't even know how to write with continuity a character they created themselves !
Nope! It used to annoy me but not anymore. I’ve made sense of it since then and now I love it.
 
I didn't mean to say that Wesley's comment was some brilliant meta-commentary.
I didn't think you did. I was just adding that I feel there should have been some sort of commentary that alerted us to the problematics of their relationship (maybe not at that moment since it would ruin the pathos a bit) but it never came because it seems like Joss really did mean for them to have the True Tragic Love.
 
Maybe both of you are right, it would have make season 7 far more interesting to me to actually see things like you see them. But the thing is if I don't feel it I dont' feel it. I guess it's too much subtle for me. And I'm wondering what is the point of season 4-5-6 which show that Spike is a "special" vampire capable of showing some humanity without a soul. If he can be like that by himself so what's the point to have a soul ? What's the difference ?

The thing with S5-S6 Spike is that he is always caught between two worlds, two opposite sides (outside and within himself), and that it can only give him a fractured identity. It's spelled out more or less in the show "I can't be a man, I can't be a monster". It worked for a while, but it becomes evident that it has its limitations (the AR being a prime example of that), hence why he went to get his soul back : to become whole again, "a kind of man".
 
But is it really a punishment for Spike? We never see Spike at odds with or struggling with the fact that the body is still very much animated by a demonic presence. So the urges to do evil are still there. But there is no conflict in Spike. So after a few weeks of craziness, it seems like Spike is just fine. No conflict, no urges, no major differences in his basic character. He's still Spike. For me it was basically like the creators were all 'well we gave him a soul so he can have a clean slate and get Buffy but that's all it's good for because we will not change him in any significant way'.

I've stayed out of this, because it's gone far, far afield of the original question, but I might point out here that there is a very major difference between Angel's initially coming to grips with his soul, and Spike accepting his. Upon receiving his soul, arguably the one person closest to him, whose opinion would seem to matter most, Darla, had the reaction of, basically, "What have they done to my boy? You've been (figuratively) destroyed, you're no longer worthy to be my mate, get out!" and even when he was later conditionally accepted back into the group, he was criticized for his new habit of only feeding on murderers and rapists. Basically, he was never led to believe that he was anything but less than he ad formerly been.

On the other hand, once Buffy learned that Spike had acquired his soul, she was totally supportive of him, praising him for risking everything to become a better man. She believed in and supported him, even over the very vocal objections of her friends. Even after the First Evil began using him to kill, she stayed on her side and never stopped believing in him. To me, at least, it is completely logical that Spike would have a far easier time coming to grips with his newly acquired soul than Angel ever was. For that matter, I wouldn't consider it too far a stretch of the imagination to believe that Angel, himself, never actually fully came to grips with his ensouled status before meeting and interacting wit Buffy.
 
Maybe David Fury was having a lazy writing day?

He says on the DVD commentary that the only part of the scene that stayed the way he wrote it was Angel’s choice of gift and inscription. So I think we have Joss to blame.
 
I've stayed out of this, because it's gone far, far afield of the original question, but I might point out here that there is a very major difference between Angel's initially coming to grips with his soul, and Spike accepting his. Upon receiving his soul, arguably the one person closest to him, whose opinion would seem to matter most, Darla, had the reaction of, basically, "What have they done to my boy? You've been (figuratively) destroyed, you're no longer worthy to be my mate, get out!" and even when he was later conditionally accepted back into the group, he was criticized for his new habit of only feeding on murderers and rapists. Basically, he was never led to believe that he was anything but less than he ad formerly been.

On the other hand, once Buffy learned that Spike had acquired his soul, she was totally supportive of him, praising him for risking everything to become a better man. She believed in and supported him, even over the very vocal objections of her friends. Even after the First Evil began using him to kill, she stayed on her side and never stopped believing in him. To me, at least, it is completely logical that Spike would have a far easier time coming to grips with his newly acquired soul than Angel ever was. For that matter, I wouldn't consider it too far a stretch of the imagination to believe that Angel, himself, never actually fully came to grips with his ensouled status before meeting and interacting wit Buffy.
Absolutely. Their support structure - or lack of it - was crucial to how each was able to deal with his soul. I'd add that Spike also had Angel's example to compare himself to, willingly or not. I think knowing what kind of change Angel's soul had on him allowed Spike to recognise what he was feeling much more quickly. I truly believe that if Spike had been suddenly ensouled pre-Sunnydale and back when he was still with Drusilla, he would have flailed around just as useless a wreck as Angel had been.
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He says on the DVD commentary that the only part of the scene that stayed the way he wrote it was Angel’s choice of gift and inscription. So I think we have Joss to blame.
Interesting. Joss is usually more careful with words. Maybe he was having a lazy day...
 
I truly believe that if Spike had been suddenly ensouled pre-Sunnydale and back when he was still with Drusilla, he would have flailed around just as useless a wreck as Angel had been.
I think he may have stayed with Drusilla.
 
Nah. He would've tried but she'd have kicked him out like Darla did, then gone off to smooch a slime demon or something.
At which point Spike would have gone and done something to prove he was still worthy to be her partner. I don't think Drusilla had a thing for disgusting demons. She liked pretty boys, like Spike and Angel.
 
At which point Spike would have gone and done something to prove he was still worthy to be her partner.
But that wouldn't have lasted long with his soul. Angel also tried to prove he was the same vampire and that he and Darla could still have the whirlwind, but it became clear that he wasn't.
 
But that wouldn't have lasted long with his soul. Angel also tried to prove he was the same vampire and that they could still have the whirlwind, but it became clear that he wasn't.
Let Spike feed on rats for a while and soul/schmoil. We're talking about Drusilla 😛
 
I think that even for Angel it was touch and go for a while. If he had forced himself to do as Darla asked him, it wouldn't be long before his conscience was sufficiently numbed. If Spike had gotten his soul before Buffy, I am pretty sure Drusilla could make him a killer again. Most addicts need a clear way out. If Spike didn't have one, it would have been too tempting to simply get back in the game as if nothing had happened.
 
I think that even for Angel it was touch and go for a while. If he had forced himself to do as Darla asked him, it wouldn't be long before his conscience was sufficiently numbed. If Spike had gotten his soul before Buffy, I am pretty sure Drusilla could make him a killer again. Most addicts need a clear way out. If Spike didn't have one, it would have been too tempting to simply get back in the game as if nothing had happened.

I think there is an element of truth to this. Angel fights those inner dark urges of his demon. S2 is a good demonstration of how low he can go even with a soul. I think that if we are using the addiction metaphor, having a strong support system, motivation and encouragement as well as, of course, strong will and character, you can overcome your addiction. But if you don't have any of that you can easily slip up. This is kind of what Doyle tells Angel in "City of." If he cuts himself off, if he doesn't let himself become a part of the human world, form friendships, for support etc, eventually it's "what's one human life?" So I find it admirable that Angel fights this every day - it's a daily struggle.

And using that same addiction/alcoholism metaphor, if you are trying to stop drinking/using but the person you love/partner is still drinking that can't be easy for purposes of turning your life around. So if Spike was still with Dru and still in love with her he might just spiral down into those darker urges.
 
W
WillowFromBuffy
Element of truth ... gee ... thanks :p
The issue here is that you're using Angel as a template, but why would he represent the standard souled/unsouled dichotomy ? (save from his being the first to experience it). I do see a difference between soulless and souled Spike, only it's less clear cut than Angel (and even this is up to debate, I dont' wholly buy it), because Spike and Angel were always different, as humans and as vampires. Not to mention that Spike's chip represented an intermediate state during which he couldn't hurt anyone, thus 'helping' him transition between soulless and souled state.
I'm not just using Angel as a template. Darla was perfectly aware of the demon in her when she was carrying around Connor's soul. She had that struggle. She was aware of the urges and evil and what would happen once Connor was born. It's the very reason she staked herself.

Angel and Spike being different doesn't matter to me here. You still have 2 souls in a demonic body. A demon that craves violence, slaughter, torture because it's evil.

The chip was always a lame excuse to retcon Spike into a fluffy puppy with bad teeth. He had the thing for 2 years at most and that's enough to change the basic nature of a 120 year old demon? Nope, not buying it.

It's honestly baffling to me that some people don't see the difference between soulless Spike and soulful Spike : he is softer, more melancholy, gives people (and Buffy especially) the space they need, offers to leave town for everyone's benefit, ... It's all there, and James Marsters portrays it wonderfully and subtly. It's definitely less black and white and clear cut than with Angel (since soulless Angel and soulless Spike are very different), but it's there.
The only difference I noticed was that Spike was 50% less funny than he used to be but 50% more of an asshole than unsouled Spike. The Spike persona is a fake mask to begin with, right down to the accent. That nothing about that persona changes once the soul is introduced makes no sense to me. It would have been a great story to see William's struggle with keeping up that persona because he doesn't want to be his weak human self. Instead it seems William's soul was more comfortable hiding behind the fake mask the demon created. Either that or the demon won the war over the body and is still the one in control.
 
This is a question for everyone, not just any specific shippers. Do you think that Buffy's story would have been better if Angel and Spike had been human, rather than vampires, or do you think that the irony of the vampire slayer/vampire relationship actually made the show special?

nah. not enough drama and suffering and they would've ended up dead in a few months anyway lol. also it's not even an irony. more of a tragedy as banal and obvious as it is. even though after awhile i couldn't see Angel and Buffy as a forbidden kind of love, yeah they're from different worlds, different species, but Angel himself isn't just a vampire. he is champion. like Buffy. even with all that "we can't have sex" stuff it seems natural and makes sense to me, and gee sex isn't that big of a deal i bet if angel didn't get his spin off they would've worked it out lol.
 
i bet if angel didn't get his spin off they would've worked it out lol.
He would have stayed in hell. For how long no one knows but if the spin off hadn't been done, they wouldn't have brought him back. Either never or maybe Seasons down the line
 
He would have stayed in hell. For how long no one knows but if the spin off hadn't been done, they wouldn't have brought him back. Either never or maybe Seasons down the line

yeah... probably. and that's kind of cruelty towards Buffy i don't appreciate.
 
He would have stayed in hell. For how long no one knows but if the spin off hadn't been done, they wouldn't have brought him back. Either never or maybe Seasons down the line
They might have brought him back after it became clear viewers weren't taking to Riley/Briley.
 
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