Buffy's Boyfriends

[badsister]

They might have brought him back after it became clear viewers weren't taking to Riley/Briley.

I still wonder if there are people who truly liked their couple... well ok, loved, shipped? idk
cause i didn't mind them that much but wasn't crazy about it...it just was a bit blah most of the times

 

[Cheese Slices]

I'm not just using Angel as a template. Darla was perfectly aware of the demon in her when she was carrying around Connor's soul. She had that struggle. She was aware of the urges and evil and what would happen once Connor was born. It's the very reason she staked herself.

Angel and Spike being different doesn't matter to me here. You still have 2 souls in a demonic body. A demon that craves violence, slaughter, torture because it's evil.

The chip was always a lame excuse to retcon Spike into a fluffy puppy with bad teeth. He had the thing for 2 years at most and that's enough to change the basic nature of a 120 year old demon? Nope, not buying it.


The only difference I noticed was that Spike was 50% less funny than he used to be but 50% more of an asshole than unsouled Spike. The Spike persona is a fake mask to begin with, right down to the accent. That nothing about that persona changes once the soul is introduced makes no sense to me. It would have been a great story to see William's struggle with keeping up that persona because he doesn't want to be his weak human self. Instead it seems William's soul was more comfortable hiding behind the fake mask the demon created. Either that or the demon won the war over the body and is still the one in control.

Ok, you're not buying it...but many viewers are perfectly fine with it, so it just boils down to a like or dislike of this arc, and is not a matter of good or bad writing. That being said, the chip was not the only thing changing Spike and helping him adapt to a life of non-slaughter. His love for Buffy, his affection for Dawn and his unadmitted desire to belong in a group (the Scoobies) were what defined and checked his impulses. Not to mention that pre-Fanged Four Spike is shown to be rather meek as far as vampires go. You may not like it, but it doesn't change it.

They might have brought him back after it became clear viewers weren't taking to Riley/Briley.

I wonder what they might have done with it, since they were already more or less running in circles in S3. Food for thought I guess.

 

[badsister]

the chip was not the only thing changing Spike

i really don't think chip changed him. it's the clockwork orange effect. as in: “When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man.” “The important thing is moral choice. Evil has to exist along with good, in order that moral choice may operate. Life is sustained by the grinding opposition of moral entities.” and well Spike kinda didn't have a choice. He just adapted...

Post automatically merged: Apr 28, 2018

since they were already more or less running in circles in S3. Food for thought I guess.

can't say what they were going through running in circles though. but yeah. i wish someone who is better with words than me would speculate that thought lol

 

[Dora]

The issue here is that you're using Angel as a template, but why would he represent the standard souled/unsouled dichotomy ? (save from his being the first to experience it). I do see a difference between soulless and souled Spike, only it's less clear cut than Angel (and even this is up to debate, I dont' wholly buy it), because Spike and Angel were always different, as humans and as vampires. Not to mention that Spike's chip represented an intermediate state during which he couldn't hurt anyone, thus 'helping' him transition between soulless and souled state.

Spike was no different having a soul than from Bargaining his voice is the same in everything...... I just put it down as a crappy one dimensional actor

Post automatically merged: Apr 28, 2018

Maybe both of you are right, it would have make season 7 far more interesting to me to actually see things like you see them. But the thing is if I don't feel it I dont' feel it. I guess it's too much subtle for me. And I'm wondering what is the point of season 4-5-6 which show that Spike is a "special" vampire capable of showing some humanity without a soul. If he can be like that by himself so what's the point to have a soul ? What's the difference ?

Spike was always special because he could make choices ie looking after Dawn etc which makes his treatment of Buffy in S6 so horrendous

Post automatically merged: Apr 28, 2018

The thing with S5-S6 Spike is that he is always caught between two worlds, two opposite sides (outside and within himself), and that it can only give him a fractured identity. It's spelled out more or less in the show "I can't be a man, I can't be a monster". It worked for a while, but it becomes evident that it has its limitations (the AR being a prime example of that), hence why he went to get his soul back : to become whole again, "a kind of man".

Lovely story line we will put Buffy though a attempted rape so Spike has a reason to get his soul...Hello Super witch living with Buffy ? returned soul's before If you believe he went to get his soul, then he went to get it for himself so he had a chance of getting in Buffy pants again

 

[badsister]

Spike never was special... I think we've seen few examples of vampires saving some of human characteristics. not much but enough to understand that the special one was in fact Angelus.
and Spike didn't have much choice in his condition. I see it as adaptation. though his genuine care for Dawn was kinda sweet but still. It's like a wolf on a leash. he is being nice to people who can protect him and etc.

Post automatically merged: Apr 28, 2018

Hello Super witch living with Buffy ? returned soul's before

it was a curse specifically designed for Angel. not any other vampires.

 

[Dora]

If Spike or Angel had been human they would have been dead for a 100 plus years
I dont think it would have made much difference as there was a distinct deference between Angel and Spike, Angel left Buffy despite loving her so she could try to have a normal life , he met Riley but approved / disproved of him, Buffy showing him she was a least at that point happy.
Where Spike soul or un souled just wanted Buffy for himself look how he reacted to Woods, Woods could have given Buffy all she required , somebody who knew about Slayers and could take her out to restaurants the beach etc etc and give her a family..... if Faith came out of prison, as Buffy was no longer the Slayer in line .....What did Spike have to offer living in a crypt surrounded by dead people with junk yard furniture looking after demon eggs ?
I think for S7 they should have got Buffy and Xander together...for a while at least

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

The Spike persona is a fake mask to begin with, right down to the accent. That nothing about that persona changes once the soul is introduced makes no sense to me. It would have been a great story to see William's struggle with keeping up that persona because he doesn't want to be his weak human self. Instead it seems William's soul was more comfortable hiding behind the fake mask the demon created. Either that or the demon won the war over the body and is still the one in control.

That is the entire point of Get it Done. Spike can't defeat the demon as he is, so he goes to get his leather duster. When he puts on the leather duster, it means that he is fully back in the Spike persona. He originally created the Spike persona, because he wanted to be the kind of warrior that would impress Drusilla. Now he needs to be a warrior again to help Buffy.

The thing about fake masks is that if you wear them for a while, they start to become comfortable. If you adopt a fake accent and use it all the time, that accent will soon be your real accent. The William persona is dead and gone, just like Liam's playboy persona. There would be no reason to for either Angel or Spike to try to wear these memories as a mask, and they would not feel authentic if they did.

When Angel came to Sunnydale, hecreated a completely new identity for himself that was radically different from both Liam, Angelus and also from the person (or people, remember his Rat Pack years?) he was after he got his soul. Spike decided to reappropriate his Spike persona and make himself a warrior for Buffy rather than a warrior for Drusilla. The choice makes tactical sense, but it leaves him somewhat developmentally stunted.

i really don't think chip changed him. it's the clockwork orange effect. as in: “When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man.” “The important thing is moral choice. Evil has to exist along with good, in order that moral choice may operate. Life is sustained by the grinding opposition of moral entities.” and well Spike kinda didn't have a choice. He just adapted...

... and Alex may never have become good without the experiences the treatment gave him 🙂

 

[badsister]

.. and Alex may never have become good without the experiences the treatment gave him

he didn't become good. hey just like spike!

Post automatically merged: Apr 28, 2018

I think for S7 they should have got Buffy and Xander together...for a while at least

right cause that doesn't have disaster written all over it with anya in the background

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

he didn't become good. hey just like spike!

He sorta did ... are we talking book or movie, though?

 

[badsister]

He sorta did ... are we talking book or movie, though?

bit of both...the whole point was that you can't force "goodness" on people. it has to be a choice. though yeah in a book i think in the end he was contemplating giving up violence cause it didn't bring him pleasure anymore and etc. but...I prefer the sarcastic remark in a movie that he was 'cured alright'. it's a complicated topic on freedom of choice and etc.

 

[Cheese Slices]

Spike was no different having a soul than from Bargaining his voice is the same in everything...... I just put it down as a crappy one dimensional actor

Post automatically merged: Apr 28, 2018

Spike was always special because he could make choices ie looking after Dawn etc which makes his treatment of Buffy in S6 so horrendous

Post automatically merged: Apr 28, 2018

Lovely story line we will put Buffy though a attempted rape so Spike has a reason to get his soul...Hello Super witch living with Buffy ? returned soul's before If you believe he went to get his soul, then he went to get it for himself so he had a chance of getting in Buffy pants again

And while I do think the AR wasn't super necessary, it's nothing new on the show, or in any narrative for that matter : character needs to undergo change, and for dramatic purpose the writer include an event (or a series of events) that will either trigger or be the final push towards that change. Usually it is something that will hurt other characters : Angel losing his soul, Jenny getting killed, Angel almost killing Buffy (GD), ... Buffy gets hurt to help develop other characters, and other characters get hurt to help develop Buffy (Kendra, Jenny, Joyce dying, Faith in a coma, the alley scene in Dead Things, etc...) Sexual assault tends to be a more taboo subject, and this one just happened to be written and directed more realistically than the myriad of other rapes and attempted rapes seen on the show (Faith and Xander, Xander and Buffy, Willow and Tara,...)

And this got way off topic and I'm sorry, maybe feel free to create a topic ?

 

[thetopher]

Spike was no different having a soul than from Bargaining his voice is the same in everything...... I just put it down as a crappy one dimensional actor

I would say that JM is fantastic as Spike...but I agree that Season 7 shows the limits to his range. He could've played soulled Spike a myriad of different ways and he chose one of the dullest/safest, just with a bit of added scenery chewing. It was disappointing.

Spike never was special... I think we've seen few examples of vampires saving some of human characteristics. not much but enough to understand that the special one was in fact Angelus.

The only vampire who is shown to be special is in fact Harmony. She is the only character who shows unselfish remorse for somebody she has no real connection with; Gunn in Angel S5.

Angelus was extremely evil, but his level of evil is pretty much explained by his upbringing/father issues, Spike's evil is different but no less loathsome because he happens to have some human-like qualities.
I mean, hell the Master showed human qualities and he was so old and inhuman, and vampires like The Three showed that some vampires value some things more than (un) life itself.

Sexual assault tends to be a more taboo subject, and this one just happened to be written and directed more realistically than the myriad of other rapes and attempted rapes seen on the show (Faith and Xander, Xander and Buffy, Willow and Tara,...)

The difference being that the viewer is expected to care when the 'rapist' starts demanding forgiveness from the victim of the sexual assault mere months later because he 'did this' for her and she 'used him', etc.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I would say that JM is fantastic as Spike...but I agree that Season 7 shows the limits to his range. He could've played soulled Spike a myriad of different ways and he chose one of the dullest/safest, just with a bit of added scenery chewing. It was disappointing.

I think JM was limited by the material he was given rather than his acting range. In Season 2, he turned a character that was meant to be a disposable villain into one of the most popular characters in the series. I think the issues with Spike start happening once Spuffy becomes a thing, essentially from Season 5 onwards. Spike's storyline becomes all about Buffy. He moons after Buffy, he pines after Buffy, he's in love with Buffy, etc. Spike ceases to exist as a character outside of Spuffy. I don't think there's many ways you can play "Buffy's lapdog". That's why Spike is at his best in Seasons 2-4, particularly Season 2 when he has both Drusilla and Angelus to play off of.

 

[Cheese Slices]

The difference being that the viewer is expected to care when the 'rapist' starts demanding forgiveness from the victim of the sexual assault mere months later because he 'did this' for her and she 'used him', etc.

When does he demand her forgiveness ?! He even says that he can't say "sorry" or "forgive me" because of how wrong it would be.
He did this for her ...yes, it's true, why would he lie ? That doesn't mean he's blaming her or expecting anything from her.
And yes, she did use him; they both behaved horribly in S6 : one good act doesn't wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. The AR doesn't erase Buffy's bad actions, and Buffy's bad actions don't erase Spike's.

Also, we're still in off-topic land.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

When does he demand her forgiveness ?! He even says that he can't say "sorry" or "forgive me" because of how wrong it would be.
He did this for her ...yes, it's true, why would he lie ? That doesn't mean he's blaming her or expecting anything from her.

I would not take the position that Spike is "demanding" forgiveness from Buffy but he seeks it, never the less. And throughout the first half of the season it is emphasized that the reason he is suffering is because of her. And the implication is that because he did this and suffered for her that she should forgive him.

In Beneath You, Spike says that he did this "for her, to be hers" all of that monologue indicates that he thought he was going to come back and he would be forgiven, he realizes it isn't going to be that easy now, but he still wants that from her. And he ultimately gets it. Not just forgiveness, but Buffy this season is his protector, motivator, his only ally, etc. Everything he sought from the act of getting his soul - he basically gets. Basically his plan worked.

And while he doesn't have to lie to her (regarding telling her that he got the soul for her) it's not just that he says "Yeah I went and this for you." It's that he tells her in great detail that his pain, suffering, and torture is because of her. When, reality check, Buffy never asked him to go get a soul. She broke up with him tried to move on with her life and he didn't like it. When he realized he couldn't force himself back into her life (AR) he went and sought out the only other desperate option there was. If he went and got a soul, that sounds like a personal problem. Only it isn't. It becomes Buffy's personal problem. And Spike wants her to know exactly what a big deal it is. In Never Leave Me:

BUFFY How did you do it? How'd you get your soul back?
SPIKE Saw a man about a girl. (sighs) I went to seek a legend out. Traveled to the other side of the world, made a deal with a demon.
BUFFY Just like that?
SPIKE No, not just like that. There was a price. There were trials, torture, pain and suffering... of sorts.
BUFFY Of sorts?
SPIKE Well, it's all relative, isn't it?
BUFFY Meaning?
SPIKE Meaning I have come to redefine the words pain and suffering since I fell in love with you.

It's not enough for Spike to tell her that he got his soul he has to paint the picture for her too. And why else would he do that if not to make her understand the magnitude of this "big thing" he did for her. What other motivation could he have than to hope that this would lead her to forgive him or accept him? Also, he is - sorda blaming her here. He is saying that he is suffering because of "her" love.

I understand that many people read this to mean that now that Spike has a soul, he knows pain and suffering. But the problem is he doesn't need to place the weight of that pain and suffering on Buffy. He is in this position because of the actions of his own demon - NOT BUFFY. She has her own problems and once again - she never asked him for this. She owes him nothing and yet it's implied that she does because he is in this situation "because of her." I think Spike actually has this realization in the comics at some point and I commend them for going there. I'm glad that after s7 Buffy spends some time apart from him.

 

[thetopher]

I think JM was limited by the material he was given rather than his acting range. In Season 2, he turned a character that was meant to be a disposable villain into one of the most popular characters in the series.

Exactly, that's the thing; in Season 2 he took the material he was given and gave it a brilliant unique twist. And he should've done the same thing in S7.

When does he demand her forgiveness ?! He even says that he can't say "sorry" or "forgive me" because of how wrong it would be.

An apology is where you start, especially if you just show up in someone's house and expect to work along side them again.

He did this for her ...yes, it's true, why would he lie ?

But why even bring it up? And he does so several times. What has the motivation/reason got to do with it? Tell me, does Angel ever say 'I was to hell for a hundred years because of you?' or does Faith ever say 'I went to jail because you demanded it?'

Nope, because they aren't looking for a pat on the head or wringing concessions/guilt/absolution from Buffy. Spike is which is why he brings it up SEVERAL TIMES. 'I love you Buffy', 'I did this for you Buffy', 'this is what you wanted' (FALSE)

God, it comes across as so shallow... like all of S7 Spuffy.

And yes, she did use him; they both behaved horribly in S6 : one good act doesn't wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. The AR doesn't erase Buffy's bad actions, and Buffy's bad actions don't erase Spike's.

NO. I'm sorry but attempted rape actually should be the ONLY consideration here.
I mean, jesus christ. If two people are having an argument and saying really mean and hurtful things and then one of them crosses the line and smashes the other in the face they don't later get to say 'you say some awful things to me' BARE MINIMUM.
They shut the hell up about the wrongs they were done to them because THEY CROSSED THE LINE. I mean, basic human decency? Spike doesn't know the meaning clearly.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

God, it comes across as so shallow... like all of S7 Spuffy.

Maybe us shallow people needed a model for redemption.

 

[badsister]

Maybe us shallow people needed a model for redemption.

i think we've reached a full circle. cause after all it comes to people seeing and interpreting it differently. talking about s7 ofc.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Remember Buffy all depressed and PTSD-ed and she didn't jump on Ken's penis? I really miss Canon!Buffy. And for a lot of people AtS S5 was the last impression of the Buffy character. Some people outright said that she clearly has a fetish for evil and I remember someone calling her 'the whore of the undead' after TGiQ. For the majority of the audience that was the last they 'saw' of Buffy and what a note to go out on (NOT).

"The whore of the undead." God, that really cracked me up! 😀

 

[badsister]

I'm not much of a hardcore shipper of any kind(never will be). I enjoyed their interactions (not all of them haha) in s7 cause it was sort of religious experience(tho im an atheist) for Spike lol as i saw it at least. searching for redemption in Buffy and etc. not defending him or anything. anyway...ignore me.

Post automatically merged: Apr 29, 2018

sometimes i feel like seeing red wasn't a good move cause there should be no going back from this. and as a survivor i really don't like seeing blaming the victim(not here) but i've seen it a lot like 'but she treated him that she did this' she could've ridden him like a pony over a rainbow to the land of oz! t doesn't excuse what happened. but then again there are situations when the attacker seeks forgiveness (there was even a book i think co written this way) and it's up to the one whose trust was violated to decide...i think i'm not even talking about them anymore so off topic.