Buffy's Boyfriends

[thrasherpix]

It's been awhile since I checked, but I thought vampire romances and erotica come a dime a dozen (I'm counting novels as well), at least when it's a male vampire (for some reason female vampires with a young male love interest just aren't the same, at least not the very few I can recall...even if I decided to count Let The Right One In, which I'm not for more than one reason). Offhand, I can think of only 2 vampire novels (I might recall more later) in which the older male vampire seducing the young woman was portrayed as horrific rather than romantic and exciting (even if the vampire is cast as a bad guy who must be destroyed all the same). Gothic romance goes back several decades if not centuries which has a similar tone. Dark Shadows (the old TV show, of course) was even popular in its day, and Kindred: the Embraced (the latter also having an example of an older vampire woman pursuing a mortal male that turns out badly, but at least she wasn't shown as villainous as is normally the case) even were soap opera like shows as Buffy would become.

I just find the idea of Buffy with male vampire lovers being seen as special or unique odd. What makes the show unique is Buffy herself (as well as Joss's odd dialog and themes).

 

[Antho]

You asked why the Spike from S4-5-6 needed a soul to be good and you said it was too subtle for you to understand. It left me somewhat baffled.

No, I said that Spike's behaviour change in season 7 was maybe too subtle for me to notice it because I don't see that much difference. I think the show proved in previous seasons that Spike can be good by himself without a soul. We saw that in regard of Spuffy S6, because I refuse to believe that Buffy fell in love of a soulless monster, and also his relationship with Dawn and many others examples. Anyway, we can agreed that the treatment of Spike in season 7 is not clear because if everything was well explained and showed, we woudn't be here to debate about it.

Nope! It used to annoy me but not anymore. I’ve made sense of it since then and now I love it.

So, your interpretation is ? Just curious

The thing with S5-S6 Spike is that he is always caught between two worlds, two opposite sides (outside and within himself), and that it can only give him a fractured identity. It's spelled out more or less in the show "I can't be a man, I can't be a monster". It worked for a while, but it becomes evident that it has its limitations (the AR being a prime example of that), hence why he went to get his soul back : to become whole again, "a kind of man".

I completely understand that. I have no problem of comprehension with the development of Spike in season 6, it's season 7 that I have problem with. I don't see the change on his behaviour that you and many others see. I think he is still more or less the same. Yes, maybe he is more tortured, but for that I give the credit to the First who haunted him not because of the soul. Maybe, He is less impulsive but mostly with Buffy in his relationship with her, regarding his reactions with the all the Wood thing, I don't really want to bring this topic again on the discussion but I'm not at all impressed or satisfied with how the situation is settled. Also, I don't understand something and I'm curious to know your opinion : Isn't the whole episode "Get It Done" (I mean the Spike's part of course) about him becoming again the one he was ? I always have interpreted the fact that he wear his coat again like a way to say "Spike is back, he is himself again". So, if he has changed, what's the point of this episode ? and if you are like me, you don't see the change, there is no sense at all.

 

[thetopher]

Maybe us shallow people needed a model for redemption.

Spuffy is in no way a redemption story, even Spike says as much.

 

[Cheese Slices]

No, I said that Spike's behaviour change in season 7 was maybe too subtle for me to notice it because I don't see that much difference. I think the show proved in previous seasons that Spike can be good by himself without a soul. We saw that in regard of Spuffy S6, because I refuse to believe that Buffy fell in love of a soulless monster, and also his relationship with Dawn and many others examples. Anyway, we can agreed that the treatment of Spike in season 7 is not clear because if everything was well explained and showed, we woudn't be here to debate about it.


I completely understand that. I have no problem of comprehension with the development of Spike in season 6, it's season 7 that I have problem with. I don't see the change on his behaviour that you and many others see. I think he is still more or less the same. Yes, maybe he is more tortured, but for that I give the credit to the First who haunted him not because of the soul. Maybe, He is less impulsive but mostly with Buffy in his relationship with her, regarding his reactions with the all the Wood thing, I don't really want to bring this topic again on the discussion but I'm not at all impressed or satisfied with how the situation is settled. Also, I don't understand something and I'm curious to know your opinion : Isn't the whole episode "Get It Done" (I mean the Spike's part of course) about him becoming again the one he was ? I always have interpreted the fact that he wear his coat again like a way to say "Spike is back, he is himself again". So, if he has changed, what's the point of this episode ? and if you are like me, you don't see the change, there is no sense at all.

He's tortured because of the soul mainly, and the first precisely uses his souled state/his guilt to torture him. : "and now everybody's in here, everything I did, everyone I..."
About "Get it done" : it's not about getting the old (evil) Spike back, it's about getting the curring one to take an active part of things. We see thoughout the season that he's being incredibly passive at best, he doesn't put much of a fight and is letting himself be consumed by his melancholia. Getting his coat back means : I need to get my shit together and start being an active person again, I need to start really fighting (and not just the bad guys- but fight for himself). That's how I see it anyway, and I think that was the intended meaning.

Spuffy is in no way a redemption story, even Spike says as much.

I'd say it's mainly a story about identity , though there are some redemption elements to it.

 

[Antho]

He's tortured because of the soul mainly,

You probably nailed the difference between your opinion and mine. I don't think it's the soul that put Spike in that such kind of depression, I think it was mostly due to the First that haunted him. With or without the soul, it would have given exactly the same thing, in my opinion.

About "Get it done" : it's not about getting the old (evil) Spike back, it's about getting the curring one to take an active part of things. We see thoughout the season that he's being incredibly passive at best, he doesn't put much of a fight and is letting himself be consumed by his melancholia. Getting his coat back means : I need to get my shit together and start being an active person again, I need to start really fighting (and not just the bad guys- but fight for himself). That's how I see it anyway, and I think that was the intended meaning.

Well, for the half first of the season, he is either in the basement mentally tortured, dealing with his guilt, or either he is in the hand of the First that captured him. So of course he can be only "passive". But once he had dealt with his problem and once he is free, he does his best, he helps. He is not more active after "Get It Done" he doesn't do more after that episode. That's the impression I have.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

No, I said that Spike's behaviour change in season 7 was maybe too subtle for me to notice it because I don't see that much difference.

You didn't notice that the murder, torture, stalking and rape attempts stopped?

I think the show proved in previous seasons that Spike can be good by himself without a soul.

I really disagree. I think the question is not whether Spike can be good without a soul, but rather how good he can be with a soul. Either way, the soul makes a marked difference.

 

[Cheese Slices]

You probably nailed the difference between your opinion and mine. I don't think it's the soul that put Spike in that such kind of depression, I think it was mostly due to the First that haunted him. With or without the soul, it would have given exactly the same thing, in my opinion.
.

But how would the First torture him if he didn't feel guilt and shame for what he'd done ? It's precisely because of the soul that the it's able to get to him.

 

[Mylie]

So, your interpretation is ? Just curious

I wrote a couple of posts about this but basically :

I used to dislike the scene because not only did it feel like a retcon but I’m a firm believer that love at first sight is bullshit and that is not what Buffy/Angel is to me, I never saw it that way. So I NEEDED to make sense of it and that’s where flashbacks episodes came in handy. The way I see it, when Angel sees Buffy for the first time he automatically feels empathy for her and he’s obviously intrigued by her. That’s what I recognize in part 1 of Becoming. I definitely don’t see any trace of love there. If that was it then it’d feel like a retcon and that would be all. But AtS managed to show us how Angel was pre-btvs which makes his relationship with Buffy even more special. Apart from AYNOHYEB, Angel pretty much lives outside of the world and has little empathy for human beings. So I think that not having felt empathy for someone in so long, it would feel like a special and intense feeling and it’d be easier to mistake it for love, especially when it’s paired with admiration. And like @EarthLogic says, there’s also some projection going on there.

And really, I don’t think that Angel thinking he fell in love with her right at that moment means that it’s exactly what happens. Of course we always have to take what the characters say seriously but they can rewrite their history just like human beings do. I don’t consider it a retcon, I see it as trying to make sense of whatever they are going through.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

But how would the First torture him if he didn't feel guilt and shame for what he'd done ? It's precisely because of the soul that the it's able to get to him.

I agree that the First would not have been able to torment Spike in the same way without his soul. But the problem is the audience doesn’t know which of the two is causing Spike’s pain, suffering, madness. Is it the soul alone or the Firsts manipulations? For example, the First shows Spike a sympathetic and caring Buffy in one of his hallucinations. Then his rug is pulled out from under him when the real Buffy shows up. It shows Spike Dru and it appears to be bombarding him with visions and hallucinations of all sorts mostly related to Buffy. Would he have gone mad with the return of his soul alone? The way we saw Angel right after he got his soul when he is talking to Darla, and rambling and saying he remembers every single kill? I don’t know the answer to that. I wish we did just to have a better understanding of how souls effect vampires. Darla was suffering when she was made human as well but she was still functioning - she just wanted the torture to end. She wanted to be rid of her humanity and her soul. I do wonder if some of the differences between Angel and Spike is that Angel has a photographic memory (its canon) and Spike just has regular memories. Maybe that makes it more difficult for Angel to move on because he has vivid memories of all that he did.

 

[Cheese Slices]

I agree that the First would not have been able to torment Spike in the same way without his soul. But the problem is the audience doesn’t know which of the two is causing Spike’s pain, suffering, madness. Is it the soul alone or the Firsts manipulations? For example, the First shows Spike a sympathetic and caring Buffy in one of his hallucinations. Then his rug is pulled out from under him when the real Buffy shows up. It shows Spike Dru and it appears to be bombarding him with visions and hallucinations of all sorts mostly related to Buffy. Would he have gone mad with the return of his soul alone? The way we saw Angel right after he got his soul when he is talking to Darla, and rambling and saying he remembers every single kill? I don’t know the answer to that. I wish we did just to have a better understanding of how souls effect vampires. Darla was suffering when she was made human as well but she was still functioning - she just wanted the torture to end. She wanted to be rid of her humanity and her soul. I do wonder if some of the differences between Angel and Spike is that Angel has a photographic memory (its canon) and Spike just has regular memories. Maybe that makes it more difficult for Angel to move on because he has vivid memories of all that he did.

Porque no los dos ? I just think it's both, but primarily the soul since it's the reason why he can be tortured in the first place. There are quite a few things that hint at this, notably the "I tried to cut it out" (although it's ambiguous whether he means his soul or his heart, but the meaning is pretty much the same).

As for the soul aftermath, maybe it also has to do with the way they exacted their evil ? There is a huge emphasis on Angel being outstandingly sadistic : he takes pleasure in torturing his victims, and takes in every moment of pain; Spike (and Darla, but to a much lesser extent I'd say) was only about the fight and the kill, and didn't really care whom he killed, moving along to the next victim. Basically the "I never looked back at the victim vs I couldn't take my eyes off them".

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Porque no los dos ?

I’m not saying it’s not both but I disagree it’s mainly the soul. I think if anything it’s mostly the First. And the evidence if this is that after he defeats the trigger and is free from the First he seems fine at that point. He is no longer mad, tortured etc.

Post automatically merged: Apr 30, 2018

As for the soul aftermath, maybe it also has to do with the way they exacted their evil ? There is a huge emphasis on Angel being outstandingly sadistic : he takes pleasure in torturing his victims, and takes in every moment of pain; Spike (and Darla, but to a much lesser extent I'd say) was only about the fight and the kill, and didn't really care whom he killed, moving along to the next victim.

Idk I think having images of killing orphans or torturing people with railroad spikes would definitely constitute as sadistic and would bring about similar feelings of unimaginable guilt. But that’s just my take.

I also disagree with your assessment of Darla. She was very much like Angelus in my mind.

 

[thetopher]

But the problem is the audience doesn’t know which of the two is causing Spike’s pain, suffering, madness. Is it the soul alone or the Firsts manipulations?

I thought that was the point of the trigger story line? I mean, he slaughters/turns a dozen people and then gets over it really quickly even though he's still triggered.
I understand that for a lil' while he wants to die and tries to get Buffy to kill him...but that's all in front of Buffy, we never see Spike ruminating on his guilt/evil AWAY from Buffy. It often seems like he's performing for her; he is, after all, overly dramatic/romantic.
He always wants his suffering to be seen/heard in detail.
That's probably a mistake on the writers part but the whole thing comes across as 'Spike is sorry for a while until Buffy sees how sorry he is and then he gets over it'.
How else can we explain how blaze he is with a murder-trigger in his head for the rest of the season?

 

[Cheese Slices]

I’m not saying it’s not both but I disagree it’s mainly the soul. I think if anything it’s mostly the First. And the evidence if this is that after he defeats the trigger and is free from the First he seems fine at that point. He is no longer mad, tortured etc.

Post automatically merged: Apr 30, 2018

Idk I think having images of killing orphans or torturing people with railroad spikes would definitely constitute as sadistic and would bring about similar feelings of unimaginable guilt. But that’s just my take.

I also disagree with your assessment of Darla. She was very much like Angelus in my mind.

I think he still is, he just keeps it to himself, what with the world ending and so much stuff going on, he knows he needs to keep his shit together (and let's face it, people would have probably thought it was a drag). Also from a writing perspective, you can't keep your character mad and tortured in the same way for the entire season, especially when it's the very last season.

I'm not saying he didn't do sadistic things, only that he wasn't passionate about/ obsessed with it as Angel was.
And agree about Darla, I wasn't sure as it's been a while since I've watched Ats. It's interesting though, because Angel does seem to have " I just want to get rid of it" phases about the soul, which speaks to his back and forth will to fight his 'weak' nature (see Amends).

I thought that was the point of the trigger story line? I mean, he slaughters/turns a dozen people and then gets over it really quickly even though he's still triggered.
I understand that for a lil' while he wants to die and tries to get Buffy to kill him...but that's all in front of Buffy, we never see Spike ruminating on his guilt/evil AWAY from Buffy. It often seems like he's performing for her; he is, after all, overly dramatic/romantic.
He always wants his suffering to be seen/heard in detail.
That's probably a mistake on the writers part but the whole thing comes across as 'Spike is sorry for a while until Buffy sees how sorry he is and then he gets over it'.
How else can we explain how blaze he is with a murder-trigger in his head for the rest of the season?

Might have something to do with show being called "Buffy the vampire slayer", and no spinoff plan for Spike. Honestly, you're really reaching here : the show is about Buffy, and with so much stroylines going on, it makes sense to combine Buffy's development and Spike's, hence his 'atonement ' being in her presence.
Also not true, see Lessons and Dirty Girls

 

[Mrs Gordo]

It's interesting though, because Angel does seem to have " I just want to get rid of it" phases about the soul, which speaks to his back and forth will to fight his 'weak' nature (see Amends).

He has one moment (arguably two) when he wants to be rid of his soul. The first and unarguable in is right after he gets it. When he is first cursed. He tells Darla he doesn’t want it.

In Amends he doesn’t want to lose his soul, he is afraid that his human weakness will lead him down a path that would make him become a monster. He doesn’t want to be a monster but he also desires Buffy and those two things are at odds. And if that means that Buffy is at risk then he’ll just die. So that doesn’t qualify to me as “wanting to be rid of his soul”

The last time one could argue that Angel “wants to be rid of his soul” is when he sleeps with Darla in Reprise. But I have written at length about how I am confident that Angel knew he wouldn’t lose his soul here. He knows that Darla has never made him happy and he knows the curse isn’t about sex but perfect happiness. After they have sex Darla calls Angel out, saying he knew all along that he wouldn’t lose his soul. He was prepared to give up, but he did not want, nor plan to lose his soul that night.

Post automatically merged: Apr 30, 2018

we never see Spike ruminating on his guilt/evil AWAY from Buffy.

Yeah but to be fair his fans would stage a riot if they made him broody or had him guilt ridden. They don’t like Angel for that reason. So I’m not surprised the writers didn’t go there with Spike.

 

[Cheese Slices]

He has one moment (arguably two) when he wants to be rid of his soul. The first and unarguable in is right after he gets it. When he is first cursed. He tells Darla he doesn’t want it.

In Amends he doesn’t want to lose his soul, he is afraid that his human weakness will lead him die a path that would make him become a monster. He doesn’t want to be a monster but he also desires Buffy and those two things are at odds. And if that means that Buffy is at risk then he’ll just die. So that dies t qualify to me as “wanting to be rid of his soul”

The last time one could argue that Angel “wants to be rid of his soul” is when he sleeps with Darla in Reprise. But I have written at length about how I am confident that Angel knew he wouldn’t lose his soul here. He knows that Darla has never made him happy and he knows the curse isn’t about sex but perfect happiness. After they have sex Darla calls Angel out, saying he knew all along that he wouldn’t lose his soul. He was prepared to give up, but he did not want, nor plan to lose his soul that night.

In Amends he does say "I wanted to lose my soul in you" because "he's weak" (paraphrasing here).
Don't think that my stating he does want to get rid of it at some point(s) is a jab at his character. On the contrary, I think it makes him 10x more interesting.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

The last time one could argue that Angel “wants to be rid of his soul” is when he sleeps with Darla in Reprise. But I have written at length about how I am confident that Angel knew he wouldn’t lose his soul here. He knows that Darla has never made him happy and he knows the curse isn’t about sex but perfect happiness. After they have sex Darla calls Angel out, saying he knew all along that he wouldn’t lose his soul. He was prepared to give up, but he did not want, nor plan to lose his soul that night.

I think I prefer to imagine that Angel is trying to lose his soul. Giving up his soul is an act of desperation that I can sympathise with. On the other hand, if he is fully aware that he will not lose his soul, then what on Earth is he up to? To have sex with Darla just to demonstrate that she doesn't mean anything to him would just be unbelievably cruel.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

In Amends he does say "I wanted to lose my soul in you" because "he's weak" (paraphrasing here).
Don't think that my stating he does want to get rid of it at some point(s) is a jab at his character. On the contrary, I think it makes him 10x more interesting.

I understand you aren’t taking a jab here I just read it differently. He says:

Because I want you so
badly! I want to take comfort in you, and I know it'll cost me my soul,
and a part of me doesn't care.

The part of him that doesn’t care is that human weakness. It is not a desire to lose his soul it is the fear of giving in to his human weakness that will result in him losing his soul that drives him to that hill.

Post automatically merged: Apr 30, 2018

Giving up his soul is an act of desperation that I can sympathise with. On the other hand, if he is fully aware that he will not lose his soul, then what on Earth is he up to?

He’s giving up. Remember you said it yourself, having a soul doesn’t mean you have to be good. It’s what they do with these souls. At this moment Angel is giving up the good fight. He is disillusioned and since Darla is a representation of his darkness and his very damnation he sleeps with her. It’s not a good moment for Angel. It’s the lowest he gets with a soul and that’s the whole point. It’s why he doesn’t kill her. He knows what he did was unfair.

 

[Cheese Slices]

I understand you aren’t taking a jab here I just read it differently. He says:

Because I want you so
badly! I want to take comfort in you, and I know it'll cost me my soul,
and a part of me doesn't care.

The part of him that doesn’t care is that human weakness. It is not a desire to lose his soul it is the fear of giving in to his human weakness that will result in him losing his soul that drives him to that hill.

I realise that I messed up with semantics, and I believe your interpretation is the right one. For me these two statements (not caring about losing his soul and wanting to lose it) are sort of tied together, if that makes sense ? I would say it's primarily one part of him not caring because he wants Buffy, and to a deeper degree, his ultimate relief if it were to happen.

 

[RachM]

I think I prefer to imagine that Angel is trying to lose his soul. Giving up his soul is an act of desperation that I can sympathise with. On the other hand, if he is fully aware that he will not lose his soul, then what on Earth is he up to? To have sex with Darla just to demonstrate that she doesn't mean anything to him would just be unbelievably cruel.

I don't think he's sleeping with her just to demonstrate she doesn't mean anything to him (and even if that were the case, I don't think it's all that cruel given that Darla is a soulless vampire and the nature of their relationship). I think sleeping with her was supposed to represent Angel hitting rock-bottom.

The whole season Darla has been trying to tempt Angel and he's resisted, he hasn't given in to her and her temptations because Darla represents the darkest parts of who he is. Buffy is his light, his hope, that's why she's perfect happiness to him. Darla is the opposite, she is is darkness, his despair, and so in that moment, at the moment he loses faith in the world and in humanity, that's what he craves, the darkness and despair she provides. Sleeping with her wasn't in order to lose his soul but to lose himself in that darkness which she's always provided him. It's supposed to be Angel at his lowest and weakest, at a point where he doesn't care, he's given up, so why not give in to her and give her what she wants?

I agree with @Mrs Gordo , Angel wasn't trying to lose his soul. He knows himself too well not to know that only Buffy can provide him with true happiness. Sleeping with Darla was him giving up on humanity, giving up on the fight and giving up on himself.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I don't think it's all that cruel given that Darla is a soulless vampire and the nature of their relationship

That's a weak excuse. It is still the same Darla he was trying to save earlier, before she was turned by Dru.

I agree with @Mrs Gordo , Angel wasn't trying to lose his soul. He knows himself too well not to know that only Buffy can provide him with true happiness. Sleeping with Darla was him giving up on humanity, giving up on the fight and giving up on himself.

I guess, if you put it like that, it really doesn't matter. If he had woken up without feeling remorse, then Angel the champion would be gone, soul or no. Instead, his sense of right reaffirms itself.