Buffy's Boyfriends

[WillowFromBuffy]

What you call soulfulness, I call expressiveness. It is easy to be moved by Spike. His quest for love is infinitely more sympathetic than Angelus sterile sadism, but I think you would be hard pressed to demonstrate that he has a conscience.

I think Spike's major flaw was that he worked too well. The Angel/Angelus dichotomy was a little too on the nose. Spikelus was a bit too relatable and too charming. I think Spike was meant to complicate the line between good and evil, but Seeing Red was meant to reaffirm it.

 

[EarthLogic]

Spikelus was a bit too relatable and too charming. I think Spike was meant to complicate the line between good and evil, but Seeing Red was meant to reaffirm it.

I think this is the crux of it. Spike became more sympathetic almost in spite of the writers' intentions, partly due to JM playing Spike with every bit of soulfulness he could muster (he admits as much in interviews so RomanticSoul isn't wrong) and partly due to sometimes being written that way either because a particular writer liked that aspect of him because it fitted with the story of an episode. But ultimately the sympathy for him came as a surprise to the creative team, because in their minds they were still writing him as evil overall. It's why 'Seeing Red' was such a backfire in many ways because so many fans regarded it as inconsistent with his character up until then. Noxon et al tried to reaffirm that he was still a monster, but there hadn't been a consistent buildup to that (for many viewers anyway, not necessarily all) on an episode-by-episode basis. Plus there was the problem of having him in human face in that scene, rather than vamp face, which IMO undermined it's intent. I don't think Spike was meant to complicate the line between good and evil as much as he ended up doing. I don't even think the writers realised how much they'd complicated it until they looked back - Noxon even says somehwere that she thinks they may have made him 'too nice'. That's why why we got 'Seeing Red'.

 

[Cheese Slices]

I think this is the crux of it. Spike became more sympathetic almost in spite of the writers' intentions, partly due to JM playing Spike with every bit of soulfulness he could muster (he admits as much in interviews so RomanticSoul isn't wrong) and partly due to sometimes being written that way either because a particular writer liked that aspect of him because it fitted with the story of an episode. But ultimately the sympathy for him came as a surprise to the creative team, because in their minds they were still writing him as evil overall. It's why 'Seeing Red' was such a backfire in many ways because so many fans regarded it as inconsistent with his character up until then. Noxon et al tried to reaffirm that he was still a monster, but there hadn't been a consistent buildup to that (for many viewers anyway, not necessarily all) on an episode-by-episode basis. Plus there was the problem of having him in human face in that scene, rather than vamp face, which IMO undermined it's intent. I don't think Spike was meant to complicate the line between good and evil as much as he ended up doing. I don't even think the writers realised how much they'd complicated it until they looked back - Noxon even says somehwere that she thinks they may have made him 'too nice'. That's why why we got 'Seeing Red'.

I still think it worked out quite fine in the end. As painful as the AR is, I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't break much from the duality and internal conflict that Spike had been going through for two seasons, his wanting to be good because of Buffy but his being incapable of it(in the absolute). I still think they could have handled it better, but I don't blame the writers, especially when you think back on the gender reversal thing going on ; they just didn't anticipate the degree to which it would impact the audience. It happens.

 

[EarthLogic]

WillowFromBuffy True, but I think the audience - including meself - can blame themselves for not paying better attention. I don't think anyone can claim there really were a lack of red flag foreshadowing.

Yes when you look back you can absolutely see the red flags, but I do still think there could have been a little more consistency from one episode to the next, where his sympathetic aspects stand side by side with his darker ones and there's a continual fluctuation between the two. One example that comes to mind is 'Hells Bells', where it's hard not to just go 'awww, how nice' in response to him and that's it. For me it's often followed by a 'wait - what?' mental double take. I think the fact that his scenes there take place in the middle of the afternoon, are brightly lit and he looks like he's just come in directly from the street doesn't help either. Obviously there are other episodes where we do get that shifting temperament and in those it works very well.

 

[thetopher]

It's why 'Seeing Red' was such a backfire in many ways because so many fans regarded it as inconsistent with his character up until then. Noxon et al tried to reaffirm that he was still a monster, but there hadn't been a consistent buildup to that (for many viewers anyway, not necessarily all) on an episode-by-episode basis. Plus there was the problem of having him in human face in that scene,

I actually like that part since its part of Spike's motivation; he isn't being a vampire at this point, he's being the creepy 'romantic' with boundary issues that we've seen all season (and much of the season before).
What many see as the 'hot' sex scene in Smashed was only the beginning; this was the logical conclusion. A demon can love no other way. But he still did this to Buffy out of love; his twisted love for her.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I still think Spike was better off evil and in a relationship with Dru. Their affectionate relationship with each other added complexity to a breed of demon that up to that point were just monsters for Buffy to kill.

Spuffy just didn't work for me, I thought it was detrimental to both characters. Buffy would've been better off hooking up with a werewolf (something that Willow and her could bond over). You get your supernatural partner without the rehash of vampire lover.

 

[EarthLogic]

Buffy would've been better off hooking up with a werewolf (something that Willow and her could bond over). You get your supernatural partner without the rehash of vampire lover.

Sorry but I really can't see Buffy hooking up with a werewolf! It just seems so comical!

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Sorry but I really can't see Buffy hooking up with a werewolf! It just seems so comical!

Why? Aside from the time of the month joke.

 

[Dora]

I actually like that part since its part of Spike's motivation; he isn't being a vampire at this point, he's being the creepy 'romantic' with boundary issues that we've seen all season (and much of the season before).
What many see as the 'hot' sex scene in Smashed was only the beginning; this was the logical conclusion. A demon can love no other way. But he still did this to Buffy out of love; his twisted love for her.

There was no love .when Buffy finished with Spike she told him she did want him , but could never love him and it was killing her....so he tried to rape her so she would feel and love him even if it killed her......that's not any sort of love that's just totally selfish , and he should have never in any circumstances have come back from that

I still think Spike was better off evil and in a relationship with Dru. Their affectionate relationship with each other added complexity to a breed of demon that up to that point were just monsters for Buffy to kill.

Spuffy just didn't work for me, I thought it was detrimental to both characters. Buffy would've been better off hooking up with a werewolf (something that Willow and her could bond over). You get your supernatural partner without the rehash of vampire lover.

Spikes relationship with Dru was like his with Buffy , Dru went with Angelus, Spike did not attempt to rape her so she could feel love, but knock her out and kidnapped her....surprise that did not work out ? and she left him for another demon

 

[RomanticSoul]

Yes when you look back you can absolutely see the red flags, but I do still think there could have been a little more consistency from one episode to the next, where his sympathetic aspects stand side by side with his darker ones and there's a continual fluctuation between the two.

I'm always baffled by people, including freaking Buffy herself, being shocked that Spike tried to rape her. It was the natural conclusion to S5 where we had the prelude of this in 'Crush'. Spike chains her up (after shocking her with a cattle prod, how romantic) and threatens her to force her to admit she has feelings for him. It really doesn't take a genius to make the logical conclusion that should Buffy ever be stupid enough to engage her obsessive stalker sexually and then change her mind, all bets would be off. Frankly, I would have called foul if Spike didn't react the way he did when Buffy didn't give him anymore sugar.

Or hey, it would have been enough for there to be some kind of power BTS that would oversee performances, tell the directors to make sure JM acts according to script. Someone who makes sure they have a beep on the character, checking over the scripts to make sure the character is consistent. Oh and don't listen to online fans, it might lose you too many viewers (and it did). But BtVS was just a failure on every front there.

 

[thrasherpix]

Yes when you look back you can absolutely see the red flags, but I do still think there could have been a little more consistency from one episode to the next, where his sympathetic aspects stand side by side with his darker ones and there's a continual fluctuation between the two. One example that comes to mind is 'Hells Bells', where it's hard not to just go 'awww, how nice' in response to him and that's it. For me it's often followed by a 'wait - what?' mental double take. I think the fact that his scenes there take place in the middle of the afternoon, are brightly lit and he looks like he's just come in directly from the street doesn't help either. Obviously there are other episodes where we do get that shifting temperament and in those it works very well.

At least it matches the vast majority of real life abusive and violent relationships. Most abusers wouldn't have anyone to abuse if they weren't nice at least some of the time, or at least really hot.

 

[thetopher]

There was no love .when Buffy finished with Spike she told him she did want him , but could never love him and it was killing her

It is demon-love, not human love. Human love can be many things (good or bad) but demon love is always destructive.
I agree that Buffy never loved Spike though, not even in S7; that whole thing had a strong whiff of guilt about it, about her making amends because she 'used him' and how he 'got a soul for her' and is suffering because of it.

 

[Dora]

I'm always baffled by people, including freaking Buffy herself, being shocked that Spike tried to rape her. It was the natural conclusion to S5 where we had the prelude of this in 'Crush'. Spike chains her up (after shocking her with a cattle prod, how romantic) and threatens her to force her to admit she has feelings for him. It really doesn't take a genius to make the logical conclusion that should Buffy ever be stupid enough to engage her obsessive stalker sexually and then change her mind, all bets would be off. Frankly, I would have called foul if Spike didn't react the way he did when Buffy didn't give him anymore sugar.

Or hey, it would have been enough for there to be some kind of power BTS that would oversee performances, tell the directors to make sure JM acts according to script. Someone who makes sure they have a beep on the character, checking over the scripts to make sure the character is consistent. Oh and don't listen to online fans, it might lose you too many viewers (and it did). But BtVS was just a failure on every front there.

Hardly likely to happen when the female show runner appears to have the hots for him

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Hardly likely to happen when the female show runner appears to have the hots for him

I got two questions for this. 1) Why are men applauded for confessional writing, while women are almost always vilified? 2) Do you have anything to say about Noxon that isn't construed from poor, anecdotal evidence? The woman helped build the franchise from the start.

At least it matches the vast majority of real life abusive and violent relationships. Most abusers wouldn't have anyone to abuse if they weren't nice at least some of the time, or at least really hot.

That is exactly why I think soulless Spike is such a great character. People are contradictory and paradoxical. There are very few people like Angelus in the world, while there are loads of people who ware kinda like Spike.

 

[TriBel]

You know that is not what I meant you are being stupid or trying to be ironic..... just to ridicule me I will go with the first
I was just pointing out that Spike could make choices , he chose to be evil to try to kill again once he thought his Chip had stopped working , He chose to look after Dawn..... then keep Buffy from her , choices, his choice

Spike's on the cusp. His ego is beginning to form - he's reality testing. It's what the ego does. He couldn't kill - lesson learned. There's every evidence Buffy is envious of Joyce's affection for "little Pumpkin Belly" (compare inter-uterine/neonatal existence to Buffy's description of heaven). There's every evidence Buffy fears Joyce was unaware how much she loved her (Intervention I think). There's also evidence she thought Joyce couldn't love her because she was a slayer (see The Body). There's every evidence Buffy's "depression" is melancholia - a failure to grieve. Buffy's relationship with both Spike and Dawn is inextricably linked to her feelings for Joyce (losing Joyce is the biggest trauma in her live). Most of these feelings are unconscious but are threatening to surface. When they do surface, whether they involve love or hate (often impossible to separate), they're often displaced. Some make it to consciousness but the ego protects itself through denial. Much of the above can be applied to Spike. The Jury is out on how much agency is involved - that is, whether a choice is really a choice. Buffy is not culpable for the AR but is partly responsible for the situation beforehand. If she's not accorded agency, she might as well be the Bot.

Yes when you look back you can absolutely see the red flags, but I do still think there could have been a little more consistency from one episode to the next, where his sympathetic aspects stand side by side with his darker ones and there's a continual fluctuation between the two.

It could be me but I see the inconsistency as a constancy of the character - and I don't see him as any more variable than her. I think by the time we get to S6/7, while the characters may still have faith in the humanist subject, the text doesn't. It's moving towards the postmodern multifaceted, fragmented self and there's a critique of enlightenment thought. If you look at the structure of S7 it's in keeping with the flows and folds characteristic of contemporary postmodernism.

Hardly likely to happen when the female show runner appears to have the hots for him

Oh for goodness sake!

 

[thrasherpix]

That is exactly why I think soulless Spike is such a great character. People are contradictory and paradoxical. There are very few people like Angelus in the world, while there are loads of people who ware kinda like Spike.

The kind of person that should understand what a restraining order is because he's been served enough of them....assuming he wasn't behind bars in the first place.

 

[EarthLogic]

It could be me but I see the inconsistency as a constancy of the character - and I don't see him as any more variable than her.

I don't mean inconsistency of the character, more so inconsistency of presentation of the character. For example a moment I really enjoyed was in 'Triangle' where Spike is talking to the mannequin and holding a box of chocolates. One minute he's speaking softly, rehearsing his proposal and the next he loses it completely and resorts to violence, and then he's back to holding the box again. I found those sudden shifts and instability in his behaviour really interesting and I would've liked to see that more. Obviously not in every single episode, because that would get predictable after a while, but a bit more than we got (and yes I know it was present in some episodes).

I think by the time we get to S6/7, while the characters may still have faith in the humanist subject, the text doesn't. It's moving towards the postmodern multifaceted, fragmented self and there's a critique of enlightenment thought. If you look at the structure of S7 it's in keeping with the flows and folds characteristic of contemporary postmodernism.

Can you expand on this a bit more? I think it's very interesting but don't quite grasp the 'how' of it.

The kind of person that should understand what a restraining order is because he's been served enough of them

Surely that kind of person is exactly the type to NOT understand a restraining order - that's why they keep doing it and why it's so creepy.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

@TriBel Interestingly, while Buffy and Angel are existentialist, who believe in our power to reinvent ourselves, Spike and Dru clearly believe in a continuous, essentialist self.

The kind of person that should understand what a restraining order is because he's been served enough of them....assuming he wasn't behind bars in the first place.

Emphasis on should, I guess...

I don't mean inconsistency of the character, more so inconsistency of presentation of the character. For example a moment I really enjoyed was in 'Triangle' where Spike is talking to the mannequin and holding a box of chocolates. One minute he's speaking softly, rehearsing his proposal and the next he loses it completely and resorts to violence, and then he's back to holding the box again. I found those sudden shifts and instability in his behaviour really interesting and I would've liked to see that more. Obviously not in every single episode, because that would get predictable after a while, but a bit more than we got (and yes I know it was present in some episodes).

That scene is great 😛

I think it is important to judge BtVS as a larger work of fiction. The scene from Triangle should inform how we interpret Spike's action in other episodes. Like, we've seen Spike's movement from nice to mean with Drusilla. At the start of S2, he is patient, loving and caring. After he finds himself in the wheel chair and Angel joins them, he starts to get frustrated and increasingly bitter and mean, until he finally knocks Drusilla out and abducts her. When we see him again in Lover's Walk, he skips between grief and anger. In the end, violence becomes the answer, once more.

I don't think Spike wants to harm Drusilla or Buffy. When he is being nice, he is mostly genuine. He is a slave to his passions. His unrestrained emotionality is very attractive, until the point where jealousy and anger come boiling up.

I think the fact that Spike is such an effective character makes him a worthy subject. The show kinda makes the viewer complicit in Spike's crimes, which I think is quite clever. Of course, if half the audience are Bangel-fans, thus immune to Spike's charms and the other half are Spuffies, thus blind to his flaws, then it doesn't really work 😛

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Of course, if half the audience are Bangel-fans, thus immune to Spike's charms

Not all Bangel fans are immune to Spike's charms.
Not all fans who are immune to Spike's charms are bangel fans.
Also, not nearly half of the audience are Bangel fans 🙂 - well not anymore - maybe back when the show aired.

Either way - I understand your point, I just felt the need to... clarify.

 

[EarthLogic]

thrasherpix I'd quibble that "NOT understand" should read "NOT respect" a restraining order because their own feelings are all that matters

Yes, that's probably more accurate.

Of course, if half the audience are Bangel-fans, thus immune to Spike's charms and the other half are Spuffies, thus blind to his flaws, then it doesn't really work

There are many fans who are neither ... poor guys always get forgotten!

I think it is important to judge BtVS as a larger work of fiction. The scene from Triangle should inform how we interpret Spike's action in other episodes. Like, we've seen Spike's movement from nice to mean with Drusilla. At the start of S2, he is patient, loving and caring. After he finds himself in the wheel chair and Angel joins them, he starts to get frustrated and increasingly bitter and mean, until he finally knocks Drusilla out and abducts her. When we see him again in Lover's Walk, he skips between grief and anger. In the end, violence becomes the answer, once more.

I agree with you, but personally I felt we could have used a tad more of it, especially in terms of the trajectory of S6 where we're building up to the climactic moment in Seeing Red. I think it may have provided a better lead in to that. Then again, it has been a while since I watched S6 properly, so maybe I'm in need of a refresher.