Buffy's Cookie Dough Speech

white avenger

white avenger
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Am I the only Buffy fan who saw that speech as a more general statement that Buffy someday hoped to settle down with someone not specifically Angel? I know that HE said "Someday is something, I'm not getting any older," so he obviously took it that way, but Buffy never either said or implied that he was the only one who she could ever imagine spending her life with.

And, no, I'm not promoting Spike into the "one and only" slot, either. I've always believed that, when that day comes, if it EVER comes, Buffy will choose someone who she can have children with and grow old with, not some immortal vampire. And don't start yelling "Shanshu" at me, because I have no faith whatsoever in that Wolfram & Hart myth.
 
"Angel. I do, sometimes. Think that far ahead." --Chosen.

I think that says quite a bit about what the scene was designed to portray. It seemed fairly clear that while Buffy wasn't ready for it at the time, she saw herself one day with Angel, which is kind of the theme of their post-S3 relationship.

This seems a bit more entrenched when you consider that the heart of the S8 main storyline was that Buffy and Angel are meant for one another (not saying it was a good storyline, but it was what it was).

I think the message/metaphor of that scene was that having and being in a relationship isn't the be-all-end-all of life, as it's sometimes made out to be.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
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"Angel. I do, sometimes. Think that far ahead." --Chosen.

I think that says quite a bit about what the scene was designed to portray. It seemed fairly clear that while Buffy wasn't ready for it at the time, she saw herself one day with Angel, which is kind of the theme of their post-S3 relationship.

This seems a bit more entrenched when you consider that the heart of the S8 main storyline was that Buffy and Angel are meant for one another (not saying it was a good storyline, but it was what it was).

I think the message/metaphor of that scene was that having and being in a relationship isn't the be-all-end-all of life, as it's sometimes made out to be.

So, if I say, "Robb Stark, someday I think that I'll get married and settle down on a rabbit farm," you take that as a proposal of marriage?

I agree that Buffy was saying that any settling down was far in her future, and obviously she was addressing Angel when she said it, but that in no way makes him the exclusive candidate for her life partner. And, if Season 8 shows anything, it shows quite plainly that, when the opportunity to play Eve to Angel's Adam did present itself, she wasn't in the market. Granted, there were extenuating circumstances there, like saving the world, but she apparently wasn't even temporarily tempted.

Joss can call Buffy and Angel soul mates until the cows come home, and I won't argue with him a bit. What I WILL say is that simply being soul mates doesn't guarantee Buffy and Angel any sort of life together, happy or otherwise, and the urge to have children and a normal life might be a greater influence when the time comes. Buffy was quite happy in her relationship with Riley for at least one full season, and I see no reason whatsoever that she couldn't be just as happy, on a longer term basis, with some other normal human at some time in the future. I still dearly love the first girl I ever had a relationship with, but that in no way detracts from my happiness with my wife, and I see no reason whatsoever to rule out the same thing for Buffy and some as yet unknown man, or woman, for that matter, in the future.
 
The whole section around that line implies it's Angel. He asks who she thinks about, she says she doesn't think that far ahead, then admits she does. The fact she says it to Angel suggests it's Angel.
If she'd said it to Xander or Willow I'd agree it could be general, but Buffy and Angel aren't friends, their more then that so saying it to Angel isn't confiding in a friend, it's admitting she thinks of a future with him. She specifically calls him back to tell him. He takes it to mean him, and she says he'll be waiting years, it's not really general at that point.

ANGEL
Any thoughts on who might enjoy— (sighs, irritated) Do I have to go with the cookie analogy?

BUFFY
I'm not really thinking that far ahead. That's kind of the point.

ANGEL
(hands the amulet to Buffy) I'll go start working on the second front. Make sure I don't have to use it. (walks away)

BUFFY
(calls after him) Angel. (he turns to look at her) I do... sometimes think that far ahead.

ANGEL
Sometimes is something. (smiles, walks away)

BUFFY
Be a long time coming. Years, if ever.

ANGEL
(shrugs) I ain't getting any older. (walks away)
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
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ANGEL
Because you're the Slayer?

BUFFY
Because... okay, I'm cookie dough,
okay?

ANGEL
Yet another curveball...

BUFFY
I'm not done baking yet. I'm not
finished becoming... whoever the hell
it is I'm gonna turn out to be. I've
been looking for someone to make me
feel whole, and maybe I just need to
be whole. I make it through this,
and the next thing, and the next...
maybe one day I turn around and
realize I'm ready. I'm cookies. And
then if I want someone to eat m --
or, to enjoy warm delicious cookie-
me, then that's fine. That'll be
then. When I'm done.

ANGEL
Any thoughts on who might enjoy... do
I have to go with the cookie analogy?

BUFFY
I don't really think that far ahead.
That's kind of the point.

ANGEL
I get it.

A beat, and he hands her the amulet.

ANGEL (cont'd)
I'll start working on a second front.
Make sure I don't have to use it.
A beat, his hands on hers, and he starts off.

BUFFY
Angel. I do. Sometimes... think
that far ahead.
He stops, smiles a bit.

BUFFY (cont'd)
We both have our lives, but...
sometimes...


ANGEL
Sometimes is something.

BUFFY
It'd be a long time coming. Years,
if ever.

He walks backwards into the dark, smiling at her.

ANGEL
I ain't gettin' any older.
He disappears into shadow. She watches him go.

Source

This is the shooting script. She was talking to Angel, about their (Buffy and Angel) future. There is no ambiguity. This isn't some random sentence she just threw out. This comes at the end of a discussion between the two of them about who they are to each other now and what they see/hope for (again for each other) in the future. Personally, I don't think there is anything in that scene to make it seem like she isn't talking directly and pointedly to Angel. Furthermore, in A Girl in Question Angel has his little freak out in Andrew's apartment where he says, "But she's not finished baking yet. I gotta wait till she's done baking, you know, till she finds herself, 'cause that's the drill. Fine. I'm waitin' patiently, and meanwhile, The Immortal's eatin' cookie dough!" If the writers didn't intend for Buffy to be referring to Angel when she said it in Chosen, why would they reinforce that it was directed at him almost a year later. Why, if she didn't mean it specifically about him, would she say it at all? Buffy isn't cruel, especially not to the people she cares about. Why, after resolving everything and with Angel walking away, would she call him back and tell him she does see a future for herself... probably not with him in it. The scene makes no sense if she was speaking generally. Which she just wasn't. Not on the page, nor on the screen. It was about Angel, spoken to Angel. There is no reasonable wiggle room.

---------- Post added at 12:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 PM ----------

So, if I say, "Robb Stark, someday I think that I'll get married and settle down on a rabbit farm," you take that as a proposal of marriage?

I agree that Buffy was saying that any settling down was far in her future, and obviously she was addressing Angel when she said it, but that in no way makes him the exclusive candidate for her life partner. And, if Season 8 shows anything, it shows quite plainly that, when the opportunity to play Eve to Angel's Adam did present itself, she wasn't in the market. Granted, there were extenuating circumstances there, like saving the world, but she apparently wasn't even temporarily tempted.

Joss can call Buffy and Angel soul mates until the cows come home, and I won't argue with him a bit. What I WILL say is that simply being soul mates doesn't guarantee Buffy and Angel any sort of life together, happy or otherwise, and the urge to have children and a normal life might be a greater influence when the time comes. Buffy was quite happy in her relationship with Riley for at least one full season, and I see no reason whatsoever that she couldn't be just as happy, on a longer term basis, with some other normal human at some time in the future. I still dearly love the first girl I ever had a relationship with, but that in no way detracts from my happiness with my wife, and I see no reason whatsoever to rule out the same thing for Buffy and some as yet unknown man, or woman, for that matter, in the future.

Well, if you and Robb had just had a smoking reunion kiss and a heart to heart about your relationship and what you both hope for the future and had both made it clear that you would like each other in your futures than yes, all evidence would point to you directing that proposal to Robb. 😛 😉

WA, the problem with saying that it doesn't matter if Joss says Buffy and Angel are soulmates and that she was happy for a year with Riley and could potentially be happy with someone else again is that A) she wasn't all that happy with Riley and B) you are directly ignoring Buffy's wants, hopes and wishes in determining who she will spend her life with. Buffy may never end up with Angel (though personally I think she will) but that won't change who he is to her, nor will that fact change that she has never been moved emotionally by any other person she has been with since him. If Buffy is to find happiness it has to be with the person she loves the most, that person is still Angel. Unless she find someone she loves more than him she won't be happy with anyone else. Heck, Buffy could end up not spending her life with anyone, but I don't think "happyish" is going to be on her agenda. It's always all or nothing with Buffy.
 
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
Only Kean can say it as well as this! :D
I agree with you, WA... I also saw it as more of a general statement about how she wasn't ready to settle down with anyone yet. I don't think Buffy knew if she would even live through the night, much less into the future. At that point, I highly doubt she was talking about being with anyone in particular.
 
Nope, I completely saw as though she was speaking to Angel directly. The way she's looking at him, the tone of her voice and the words themselves all suggest that she was speaking to and about Angel. Even when I watched that scene for the first time, ten whole years ago when I was still a Spuffy, I thought she was talking to Angel and I was annoyed that they would throw that in there. Now, though, that I've rejoined Team Bangel, I can tell you that I'm happy that it was there.

Plus, there's also the fact that Angel took it that she was speaking to and about him, and, if she really wasn't, Buffy never corrected him. It kinda makes Buffy out to be a bit of a bitca if she's giving this dramatic speech with no one specific in mind without explicitly pointing that out to Angel. It would infer that she's letting him leave with false hope and, yeah, I feel like Buffy would be a real Bitch if this was her intention. 'Ha, ha, he thinks I'm talking about him; what a loser.'

Buffy has never been that kind of person and I feel like, if she really wasn't talking about Angel, she would have made it clearer that it was just a hypothetical discussion and wouldn't have let him walk away thinking that they still had a chance to be together in the future if she wasn't thinking that, too.
 
Black Eye Guy
Black Eye Guy
I always forget your a reformed Spuffy!
[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION],

[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION], [MENTION=6332]Lyri[/MENTION] said it brilliantly 🙂.

However, one point to make. While I completely believe that Buffy was referring to Angel pretty directly in "Chosen", I've always thought, personally as a fan, that if Angel ended up with Cordelia and Buffy ended up with Spike, that would have been awesome too. Sadly, that went by the wayside.
 
The dialogue is written in a way that you can take what you want from it. To pick one line and say that it pretty much says what the scene was designed to portray, is being deliberately biased (but as I said, it's exactly what you are supposed to do).

The dialogue strongly hints at a possible future for Angel and Buffy, in such a way that fans who like the idea of Angel and Buffy getting together, can justifiably believe this is what Buffy wants.

The dialogue also strongly hints that Buffy may not EVER get together with Angel, in such a way that fans who believe that Buffy and Angel will never get back together, can justifiably believe this to be the case.

Thus, picking lines of dialogue to prove or disprove a theory won't get either side anywhere, better to just accept that the scene can be interpreted in 2 ways, be happy with the way that you choose to see it, but also respect that other viewers may interpret it differently.
 
BuffyElevated
BuffyElevated
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Kana
Kana
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It's not the first time they talk about a future together. The speech on the future in Chosen, is the evolution of what they said in the second season of Buffy.

Angel: So you don't think about the future?
Buffy: No.
Angel: Never?
Buffy: No.
Angel: You really don't care what happens a year from now? Five years from now?
Buffy: Angel, when I look into the future, a-a... all I see is you! All I want is you.
Angel: I know the feeling.

Bad Eggs (Season 2)


In Chosen we see that Buffy has changed his mind about his future, but in *that* future, she sees always and only Angel, and that's never going to change.

I do, sometimes think that far ahead.

..and while with Spike she sees no future (I do not see fat grandchildren in the offing with Spike.) With Angel instead is a different story. So yes, I believe that Buffy was referring to Angel.
 
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brinkster130
brinkster130
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VisionGirl
VisionGirl
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I have always believed that the speech is in reference to Angel; why else would Buffy feel the need to tell him that she does "sometimes ... think that far ahead".

Buffy has always seen her future as being with Angel; she has always wanted her future to be with Angel. It might never happen, but it doesn't mean that she will ever stop wanting it to. The look of panic on her face as he begins to walk away says it all; she can't let him leave without letting him know that no matter how small the chances are, she wants him in the end; he's the one she sees in her future.
 
Lyri
Lyri
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janas
janas
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brinkster130
brinkster130
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R
Robb Stark
[No message]
S
SlayerOfVampyrs
All of this
Of course Buffy wanted to be with Angel, the last time they slept together he didn't try to kill her friends did he..... oh wait, yes he did. Hmm bet she really wanted to risk that again.
When that cookie dough speech happened Buffy was gearing up for a big fight, Angel had something that might help, Buffy wanted that something that might help, so she was being nice to him in order to get that something.
Angel thought she was saying what he wanted to hear, that only meant that Buffy was saying the right stuff. As a General might.
Because Buffy and Angel were just friends.

Can't you just imagine Angel being in the battle in the hellmouth?
I wonder what Spike would have said after he 'accidentally' knocked Angel over the edge?
Oops sorry tee hee?
Buffy may have shouted, do a swan dive.
Faith may have said to Buffy, I thought we were staying up here.
Kennedy would have shouted down to Angel, for him to have a nice trip.
 
R
Robb Stark
There's nothing to even remotely suggest that's what Buffy meant.
Of course Buffy wanted to be with Angel, the last time they slept together he didn't try to kill her friends did he..... oh wait, yes he did. Hmm bet she really wanted to risk that again.
Not trying to dismiss the Angelus period, but a lot has happened since then. Buffy doesn't need to protect her friends as much as she used to, and Hell, Willow tried to kill them all and Buffy still keeps her around. Same for Spike. Oh and Anya tried to kill Xander and was also a demon for several months there. In fact, is there anyone in the Scoobies who hasn't tried to kill at least one of the others?

When that cookie dough speech happened Buffy was gearing up for a big fight, Angel had something that might help, Buffy wanted that something that might help, so she was being nice to him in order to get that something.
Angel had already given her what she needed; he handed over the files and had shown her the amulet. He didn't need her "being nice" to him as incentive to give her what she needed for her final fight.

Angel thought she was saying what he wanted to hear, that only meant that Buffy was saying the right stuff. As a General might.
Because Buffy and Angel were just friends.
I'm sorry, but when have Buffy and Angel ever been "just friends"?
 
Robb Stark,
That isn't what she meant?
Did Buffy want him around when she was gearing up to fight the first? No, she wanted him to set up a second front in LA, like she knew the first would go there and not, say Cleveland or even New York next.
So, she didn't want him fighting along side her which leaves the chit-chat between them and getting that stuff from him.
 
I know a lot of people who hate the cookie dough speech, but I'm not one of them. Some people find it clumsy and cheesy and while I'd agree with that, I think the sentiment behind it rings true, well at least in my interpretation of it.

I find that many interpretations of this speech are often coloured by people's 'shipping preferences. People will pick out their favoured lines to demonstrate how they 'prove' that Buffy is really seeing 'vampire X' in her future.

So to whom is the speech directed? Who gets to enjoy yummy cookie Buffy?

Well for me, it always comes back to the dialogue, but I'll try and be careful not to miss anything out.

I'm going to annotate, for want of a better word, the dialogue leading up to the speech and include the speech itself to give it a bit of context. Now please understand all of this is merely my own subjective opinion on the matter.

ANGEL
I'm getting the brush off for Captain Peroxide. It doesn't necessarily bring out the champion in me.

BUFFY
You're not getting the brush off. Are you just gonna come here and go all Dawson on me every time I have a boyfriend?


This is important! I wholeheartedly believe Buffy is being honest here. Her love life actually isn't any of Angel's business at this point, but she is quick to say that Angel isn't get the brush off for Spike, so while she does send him away, I don't think it's because she's choosing Spike over Angel, as some Spuffy fans claim.

ANGEL
That'll end well. (walks away, leans on a tombstone)

BUFFY
What was the highlight of our relationship? When you broke up with me or when I killed you? I'm well aware of my stellar history with guys... (sighs, leans beside Angel) And, no, I don't see fat grandchildren in the offing with Spike, but I don't think that really matters right now. (chuckles) You know, in the midst of all this insanity, a couple things are actually starting to make sense. And the guy thing"” (sighs) I always feared there was something wrong with me, you know, because I couldn't make it work. But maybe I'm not supposed to.

Angel comments that a relationship with Spike wouldn't go well and I'm glad she brought up their own relationship which was arguably just as disastrous ( it did feature Angelus trying to destroy the world if you remember) but she also seems to agree that she doesn't see a realistic future with Spike (fat grandchildren). However, it's also important to note that Buffy is quick to say that it doesn't really matter right now. So I kind of think that Spike not being the long haul guy isn't not as important as what she's about to say to Angel, about her issues with guys in general.

Here it comes....

BUFFY
(looks at Angel) Because"”OK, I'm cookie dough. I'm not done baking. I'm not finished becoming whoever the hell it is I'm gonna turn out to be. I make it through this, and the next thing, and the next thing, and maybe one day I turn around and realize I'm ready. I'm cookies. And then, you know, if I want someone to eat"” (eyes go wide as she catches herself) or enjoy warm, delicious cookie me, then...that's fine. That'll be then. When I'm done.

Now the reason some people find this speech a little unbelievable is because they think that 'finding themselves' at the age of 22 feels more like an excuse than a genuine reason not to commit, but you know what? People are different. Some people fall out of the womb knowing who they were meant to be but some don't. I believe Buffy is the latter and you know what? Well done for her for realizing that, because many are too scared to admit it.

As I've always said, you cannot separate the love from the lover and I think Buffy realizes that. What she used to do is what a lot of fans tended to do. Define her with a ever present someone else: "Buffy belongs with Angel" "Buffy and Spike have that real connection"

While in the past she has often said, she only sees a future with Angel, now, her words of 'commitment' seem a little more ambiguous. And why wouldn't it be? Why should she put pressure on herself to make it work when she's still finding out who she is and what she wants?

And Angel isn't totally incorrect when he mentions that her role as the Slayer may further complicate things. That role as brought her in contact with many painful experiences, including dying! Are we saying those experiences haven't affected Buffy? Also there is a superiority/inferiority complex...

Buffy wanted it to work with Angel, and even Riley...Spike? Well circumstances we different. Her lack of commitment to Spike wasn't really about Spike but about where she was emotionally. Things like death and attempted rape can present monumental issues to get over, I'd imagine.

ANGEL
Any thoughts on who might enjoy"” (sighs, irritated) Do I have to go with the cookie analogy?

BUFFY
I'm not really thinking that far ahead. That's kind of the point.

So Angel tries to push her for an answer and Buffy gives him a non-committal reply and rightly so!

For many Bangels, they tend to focus on the next line Buffy says...

BUFFY
(calls after him) Angel. (he turns to look at her) I do... sometimes think that far ahead.

But they sometimes miss...

BUFFY
Be a long time coming. Years, if ever.

Not forgetting that Angel said...


ANGEL
Any thoughts on who might enjoy"” (sighs, irritated) Do I have to go with the cookie analogy?

So, in short all we have is that she has thoughts as to who she may end with. So while Angel is in the running, I don't see this as a sign of commitment. To me, the sign of committing is, well, committing itself and the whole point of the cookie dough speech is that Buffy isn't ready to do that.

I'm a firm believer that relationships don't appear in vacuum with only nebulous concept of love guiding them. She must have realized through her three major relationships that circumstances do play a part which is why I believe she brought up 'Fat Grandchildren' and the 'Highlights' of Bangel.

If she is finding herself, she's also trying to find the sort of life she wants and that will determine the sort of love she has. How can she know if Angel or Spike are part of her end game if she's still trying to figure out what her end game is? If she knew that, surely that would invalidate the speech: "Hey Angel, once I've found myself, I'll definitely be with you". Nothing in that scene is remotely that concrete or overt and deliberately so!

Again, this isn't me siding with Spuffy fans either. Buffy seems just as unsure about her future with Spike.

I may be totally off base but I never saw the speech being about the guys, it was about her. Does it give Bangels hope? Of course it does, just like it gives Angel hope. Does it sink Spuffy's ship? Of course not! Cookie dough is malleable and even though she's unsure of a comfortable future with Spike at that point, it doesn't mean things can't change and it doesn't mean Buffy can't change. She will, and she knows that.

To me, I like how the speech celebrates the understanding of a changing identity and how it affects relationships. It's not about Bangel or Spuffy, it's about not putting pressure on one's self to make a relationship work. It's about giving one's self time.

I believe she was being honest in this conversation. It wasn't a brush off, nor was it a commitment. She never rules out Spike, but the best she can offer Angel is "Sometimes I think I might be with you in the future". A far cry from...

Buffy: Angel, when I look into the future, a-a... all I see is you! All
I want is you.

She's certainly not saying that now, because she's changed, as people often do. She's not immune to experiences and memories shaping her. To me, that journey of self-discovery is far more exciting than who she's going to end up with and ultimately it's going to be more important than that because it will help determine who she'll end up with.

So without this knowledge and without Buffy's actual, verbal commitment, all a shipper will have is hope. As long as they don't believe they are objectively forecasting Buffy' s future relationship prospects as much as they projecting their own desires and expectations, but hey, don't many of us do that when regarding a piece of fiction in some shape or form? I know I do. 😉.
 
Ethan Reigns
Ethan Reigns
Great analysis! It is important to not read more into the speech than is actually there.
chasesummers
chasesummers
[No message]
I really liked your analysis, [MENTION=7540]Kana[/MENTION] , especially:

To me, I like how the speech celebrates the understanding of a changing identity and how it affects relationships. It's not about Bangel or Spuffy, it's about not putting pressure on one's self to make a relationship work. It's about giving one's self time.

Spot on right there.

The cookie dough metaphor is a little cheesy, but I actually loved that scene. I am a fan of Buffy, single and on her own. Who she ends up with doesn't mean that much to me because right now she's still "baking," as she puts it.

I think this speech shows how much Buffy has matured as a character, and how she's grown from her high school days. When Buffy said "all I see is you" to Angel in high school, I kind of cringed, NOT because I dislike Bangel or I thought their relationship was immature, but because she still had so much growing to do. There should be more to her life than Angel. Angel could be the end game guy, but I think that Buffy shouldn't have to decide that then and there.

The choice to have her give that speech at the end of the series instead of "picking" Spike or Angel was spot on. As a current 22 year old girl who is struggling with a relationship, thinking back on this speech helped me realize "hey, you don't have to have it all figured out. Just be you and keep growing".
 
Well the speech comes across as fairly straight forward to me. Buffy realise's that she has some growing to do and that she shouldn't be relying on someone else to complete her. However if she thinks about a future relationship she is currently seeing Angel, but it's not set in stone.

However I do have a big issue with this whole scene. What is Angel playing at? He left Buffy! Whatever stage of cookie Buffy is doesn't matter at all. He's still a vampire, he's still cursed and he still can't provide a normal life. This is why he left at the end of Season 3. The line about him having plenty of time makes absolutely no sense to me. Buffy wanted to be with him and he left. He wasn't waiting for her to make up her mind. Can anyone shed some light on his thought process for me?
 
Well the speech comes across as fairly straight forward to me. Buffy realise's that she has some growing to do and that she shouldn't be relying on someone else to complete her. However if she thinks about a future relationship she is currently seeing Angel, but it's not set in stone.

However I do have a big issue with this whole scene. What is Angel playing at? He left Buffy! Whatever stage of cookie Buffy is doesn't matter at all. He's still a vampire, he's still cursed and he still can't provide a normal life. This is why he left at the end of Season 3. The line about him having plenty of time makes absolutely no sense to me. Buffy wanted to be with him and he left. He wasn't waiting for her to make up her mind. Can anyone shed some light on his thought process for me?

Well I'd think the fact that she's been with Spike would kinda make him think whats the point in not being with her if she's just going to throw her life away and be with Spike, the only thing stopping him would be the curse and there is a chance he'll become human. He doesn't need her to ready yet, cuz he's not ready yet.
 
But then there was his little speech about cookie dough and waiting in The Girl In Question. He makes it sound like he's just waiting around for her to be ready to be with him. That has nothing to do with her being with Spike at the time. All I'm getting from the way Angel speaks is that he's waiting around patiently for Buffy to sort herself out and come find him. When in fact it's the other way round if anything. Angel at the very minimum has to sort out the curse before anything can ever happen with him and Buffy. Especially considering the curse isn't specific to sex. He could be with Buffy and have a perfect moment doing whatever and it would all go wrong again.
 
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