W
WillowFromBuffy
Guest
I just always felt the BtVS reaffirmed Buffy's feelings for Angel much more often than AtS did Angel's feelings for Buffy.
Hmm idk that I agree it feels pretty evenly matched to me with the exception of that time period. But maybe one day I’ll make a references comparison. I’ve wanted to for a while now take notes on that on rewatches.
BuffyBot22
Scooby
I think that's because Angel doesn't really talk about his feelings.
It would be OOC for him to just go around telling everyone he loves Buffy lol.
Grace
Destructo-Girl
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I support this idea! I am willing to collaborate if you want help!
Mrs Gordo
We can start in S7 rewatch to get it going! :)
Ethan Reigns
Scooby
The story of Buffy and Angel is a full-blown tragedy similar to "Scenes from a Marriage", the Ingmar Bergman miniseries that became a 3-hour (actually 181 minute) movie about a couple who have their problems and infidelities and eventually split up and marry other people but remain in love with each other. There is always going to be a bond between them in spite of them having moved on from each other.
maskedgeekgirl
Townie
Yeah, at this point my only hope is that someone will buy the rights from Joss and erase the comics Star Wars Legends style, and give the property over to someone who knows that happy couples don’t mean the end of good drama.
I’m so tired of ‘canon’ keeping them apart. Especially because the shows constantly invent MacGuffins for the sake of a plot, which makes it all the more blatant how nonsensical it is that Buffy and Angel’s dilemma is the one problem that can never be solved. Spike can get a soul with no clause, the laws of the universe can be broken so Angel and Darla can have a son, all the Potentials can be magically activated, Buffy can become a Goddess or something and have outer space sex with Angel, Amy can keep Warren alive after he was flayed, but finding a way to bind Angel’s soul or tracking down another Moira? Inconceivable!
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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No, I just don't think people work that way. It's putting her in a box. Saying this, now woman, can experience only one true love in her life. Her first boyfriend, a love that she had as a kid, she still pines over and is in love with him decades after it ended.
EDIT: I still say she loves him. I just don't think she is in love with him. She will probably always love him.
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EarthLogic
Scooby
That makes her sound like she was fourteen or something! The relationship started at 16 and ended at 18 and Buffy was far more mature than her peers due to being the Slayer.
Well the timespan from S3 to the end of S7 is about four years. Regardless of whether she was still in love with him by then or not, that's hardly decades. Unless you're counting the comics...I'm not sure what the timeline is in them, but I don't think it's more than a few years. Definitely less than 10. If you take one season as roughly one year then that would bring us to four comic years, a total of 8 years since the breakup.
I do sort of agree with you. They've been apart for so long that I don't think she could be actively 'in love' with him in the way that she was during the relationship. But given that there is a connection still there and that she probably will always love him, I can see the two of them falling back in love if they were ever given the chance to get to know each other again and renew their relationship. (I'm discounting the comics here btw, since they are nuts.)
Skanky Vamp
I'm sorry but 16 is a kid
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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Oh. So all that crap that happened in the comics happened in just the span of a few years? Nevermind then. I just assumed it was longer, seeing how long they have been going on for.
EarthLogic
Scooby
Yeah well I really have no idea how long it actually spans, I was guessing based on the show's 1 season = 1 year format. I think S8 might have been around a year or so. After that, no clue. The gang seem to be still in their twenties so it can't be that long. Perhaps someone who actually reads the comics will know..?
Yes but it continued into her late teens, by which time she would have been deemed a young adult.
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Skanky Vamp
I guess then it just FEELS like it's been going on for decades and she's still in the mindset of the show and haven't grown since the early 2000s. Nevermind then.
She was in love with him in s4 (IWRY). So it’s really just 3 yrs from there to S7.
Then they have continued to kiss when they see each other in Forever, Chosen, and with the comics they have their twilight sex in s8. So its not like it’s been that long since they had a thing. If we by that measure it’s been 2.5 yrs since they were together.
The ‘she was a kid argument’ is tired.
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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To me it still seems wrong. But I never really believe the whole "high school sweethearts" he was the first person I loved and been with my whole life either. It just seems... limiting. People are like oh, that's so nice and I'm like, no it ain't. So... that probably taints my perception when I hear people say that Buffy is still in love with Angel, etc. Especially when to me, it seems like its been 15 years since the show (when I guess it's not been)
But then if Buffy was still in love with Angel, and Angel her, then it just also seems to cheapen what she had with Riley and he had with Cordy.
DeepBlueJoy
Lion Faced Kitteh
Uhm, it's a TV show.
You speak as if there's a right answer relationship wise. IMO, Spike did way more for Buffy and their relationship in season seven was actually something one can build a life together on, but I don't think ANY relationship is set in stone.
There was lots of dark water under the bridge in both relationships. I write it my way, you write it yours.
To answer the question of friendship? Well, I think in a conventional sense, no b/c of the nature of the way they relate, but I don't think they'd ever stop caring for each other. Angel's judgment in going to W&H would make me think very hard about considering him again, soul or no permanent soul.
My opinion about why Angel can't fight for his soul in the trials Spike went through is that he already has one. If he didn't have one, Angelus would never fight to get it back.
PS: I am of the opinion that the comics are fanfic by the man himself and not canon. The idea of child Giles, Satsu and giant Dawn... Really? The comics are a result of being able to write whatever he wants without any of the financial or common sense constraints a TV show puts on you.
You speak as if there's a right answer relationship wise. IMO, Spike did way more for Buffy and their relationship in season seven was actually something one can build a life together on, but I don't think ANY relationship is set in stone.
There was lots of dark water under the bridge in both relationships. I write it my way, you write it yours.
To answer the question of friendship? Well, I think in a conventional sense, no b/c of the nature of the way they relate, but I don't think they'd ever stop caring for each other. Angel's judgment in going to W&H would make me think very hard about considering him again, soul or no permanent soul.
My opinion about why Angel can't fight for his soul in the trials Spike went through is that he already has one. If he didn't have one, Angelus would never fight to get it back.
PS: I am of the opinion that the comics are fanfic by the man himself and not canon. The idea of child Giles, Satsu and giant Dawn... Really? The comics are a result of being able to write whatever he wants without any of the financial or common sense constraints a TV show puts on you.
EarthLogic
Scooby
And that's perfectly fine if that's your personal take on that kind of relationship. I personally can buy it because I've seen both. I've seen friends move on to better relationships after their teenage first loves turned out to be morons, and I've seen people go on to marry the person they have been with since the age of 16. The question of whether that is 'limiting' is a very personal one IMO and very dependent on the individual. Some people like to explore their sexuality and engage in a number of different relationships before settling down (if ever they choose to do so), whereas others find someone they love and connect with very early on and are happy with that. Some people don't even have a first love until well into their adult life. I'm not about to question or judge people for any of those choices, especially if they're satisfied with them (not implying you are btw).
I think a lot of people get hung up on the idea that it's unrealistic simply because he was the 'first', whereas I've always felt that was beside the point. The reason it has such an impact on her isn't because it was the first, but because it was the most intense and significant*, as shown by the fact that their connection persisted beyond her teen years. If Buffy had first slept with Owen after dating him for a while (eew), and then Angel had come along, he'd still be the most important*.
*arguably. Of course supporters of other Buffy ships would disagree but this isn't about ships. I'm just arguing against the whole 'unrealistic first love' idea for the purpose of this post.
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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Oh I don't think losing her virginity to him has anything to do with it. Granted they do say you have fond memories of it but I am not a woman so I cant say. It was just the bond they shared which means he will always have a special place in her heart. Not the fact that she lost her virginity and he turned into a psycho killer. Granted, I am sure there are a lot of neurosis there but I think that got worked out with Parker.
EarthLogic
Scooby
Oh I didn't mean 'first' in terms of losing her virginity, just in terms of 'first serious relationship/first love which takes place in high school'.
@Mr. Pole That's ok. I actually thought I might have confused you with the Owen thing.
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Skanky Vamp
My bad! I thought since you put it in quotes thats what you meant.
I think this unfairly diminishes their relationship as written on the show. I don't think Buffy and Angel are written as mere "high school sweethearts" after all how many of those stories include, killing your love, sending him to hell for 100 years, and still loving them upon their return? I'd venture to say not many. And that is not what Buffy and Angel think about each other:
In s7 when she is reflecting on Angel she says: "I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life."
In s5 Angel says: "Ours is a forever love."
So clearly Buffy and Angel don't think of themselves as just "high school sweethearts." That certainly may be YOUR perspective but the text is pretty clear that is not theirs.
EarthLogic
Scooby
To be fair, not sure that's the best example. He's arguing with Spike at that point so he says that more in the context of pettiness and rivalry 😛