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Cangel vs. Bangel

Taake

That's right, I'm watching you...
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Black Thorn
And... they redid THAT whole thing again in the comics with Buffy and Spike; when Buffy went into, and saw, Spike's history.
So clearly, Joss & Co ran out of ideas a long time ago. Kind of a good argument for the reboot, at least with Joss far away from it.
 

NeonSlayer

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And... they redid THAT whole thing again in the comics with Buffy and Spike; when Buffy went into, and saw, Spike's history.
What really frustrated me about that is it would've been the perfect moment for Buffy to find out about the forgotten day. Spike *and* Angel were being haunted and then Angel returned to help stop Archaeus. There was even another scene involving a sewer but they had Buffy go with Spike instead of Angel. It could have easily been used to tie in Prom & IWRY but they were trying to turn Spuffy into a knockoff Bangel just like Cangel was a knockoff Bangel. Spuffy was originally an inverse of Bangel, similar to Dangel being an inverse of Bangel. It worked when Spike & Darla redid scenes that Buffy & Angel had with each other because it was done in a way that showed Spike & Darla were the antiAngel & antiBuffy instead of plagerizing them, it highlighted what was good about Bangel.
 

FaithLehane16

"Tact is not saying true stuff. I'll pass."
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Angel has more compatibility to Buffy than he does with Cordelia without the soul curse. With the soul curse, Buffy was his literal happiness above all else, so my decision would have to be Bangel. Bangel is not a product of forced interactions while Cangel is. I don't see Cordelia wanting to friend it up with Angel in Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 3. Bangel is the original while Cangel is the rip off. I dislike Cordy's influence on Angel. It's as if she feeds into the worst in him, while Buffy's influence on him brings out the best in him.
 

Cangel1987

♥ Cangel ♥ Spuffy ♥
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It's great that our opinions diverge far apart. And I usually don't replay these days. But something stopped me from just leave the page. Currently I do not reply postings anymore. Or I must be in the mood for it. Because I have a lot to do in my life right, now. A lot of stress and little time. And I need to admit I miss the old times here, just hanging around and talking to you all. Or playing games.



I would agree with you about Buffy, Angel and Cordelia back in Sunnydale. Because they "Cangel" didn't know eachother well in Sunnydale. And like I said more than once - I loved Bangel when I grow up and was very sad that they seperated because "Joyce" told Angel to it.



But a few years have passed since then. Buffy lived her life in Sunnydale and Angel lived in Los Angeles. Both had their own lives, which they had to take care of.



And I do not want to talk bad about Bangel. But this is the way of things.



Buffy had Parker, Riley and Spike.



And Angel had Darla, Cordelia (which unfortunately they were not together) and the dopey werewolf - Nina.



Soulmate is a strong word. I do not know who his true soulmate was. It could be Buffy, it could be Cordy - who knows? Let's just say that they ( Buffy and Cordelia) were especially important to Angel. Both of them - and not just one of them.At least it's the manual way how I handle it.



I don't feel like Cangel is forced at all. But even here the opinions differ widely.



Maybe it's because my friend and I were friends before we fell in love. And we have been together for almost 14 years. And I miss the point for that. But I do not think that Cangel is forced. And again: Opinions are divergent. And time change people.



At least that's how I think it is. And as I have experienced it myself.
 
GraceK
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Your a sweetheart ❤

AngelsCordy

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Recently I asked a question but no one answered the question :) So I thought I will ask the question, this time here in the topic.

It was about Angel not loving Cordelia because he didn't realize that she wasn't herself. In season 4 of Angel.

And I asked a counter question: In other words, shouldn't we say that Buffy could have notice that Angel is no longer Angel? And that he was out of character... For example only - Did she loved him less?

What is your opinion on the subject?
 

Ann

Nee chatwuann Bangel
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I go with Bangel everytime over any relationship Buffy and Angel are in. These other relationships do not hold a candle to Bangel;in terms of chemistry and believability. To some I suppose the same hair color seems to denote compatibility but that to me is not true. Part of the reason I like Bangel is the differences in hair color, height, and hands. Not to mention how tall Angel looks next to Buffy. It is interesting to me that in the scene in the subway car where James mistakes Cordelia for the woman Angel loves. Angel's reply is :"The woman I love is dead." So Angel who is supposed to be falling in love with Cordelia needs other people around him telling him that he is doing so. The same goes for Cordelia. Buffy and Angel had no trouble realizing that they were developing feelings for each other and didn't need others around them telling them that they were. I think those associated with the show realized that putting Angel and Cordelia together was a mistake since Cangel was dismantled in Season 4. Cangel was forced because the network demanded a love interest for Angel be found and Cordelia was probably chosen to save the producers finding a female actress to play Angel's love interest. Cangel was a re-doing of Bangel but failing miserably to have the feeling and chemistry that Bangel had and still has. Oh the smiles that were exchanged between Buffy and Angel. Why Bangel was so great because Buffy and Angel were played by David Boreanaz and Sarah Michele Gellar who were believable in their roles and charaters and people in love with each other. Bangel still touches me to this day.
 

telperion66

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I wanted to reopen this topic because we were interrupted last time. Since the topic would be closed - and said, if we want to - we can open a new one :)
Angel and Buffy was a love for the ages, a love that lasts for all time.

Cordelia and Angel was just a convenient plot-line for the storytellers. I, for one, never really bought into Angel "loving" Cordelia in any way, shape or form the same kind of way he loved Buffy. It just never convinced me.
 

Ann

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Joss Whedon himself said that on AtS he tried to use Cordelia to redo Buffy's story (shallow SoCal teen who gets super powers & depth) since BtVS the tv series was a year after Buffy became the Slayer so she already gained that. Cordelia's arc and Cangel are LITERALLY a reboot of Buffy & Bangel.

* Buffy was conceived, born, raised, & lived in LA for 16+ years. Cordelia moved to LA.
* Buffy's first BtVS episode is the start of her life in a new town. Cordelia's first AtS episode is the start of her life in a new town.
* Buffy has visions & prophetic dreams since she was at least 15, inherited from the death of the previous person who had them. Cordelia gets visions at about 19, inherited from the death of the previous person who had them.
* Buffy is friends with a male British Watcher (Giles), a nerdy girl who is good with computers (Willow), & a guy with no superpowers (Xander). Cordelia becomes friends with a male British Watcher (Wesley), a nerdy girl who is good with computers (Winifred), & a guy with no superpowers (Gunn).
* Buffy spends part of an episode in bed because everyone's hurts are amplified in her head. Cordelia spends part of an episode in bed because everyone's hurts are amplified in her head.
* There is an episode showing an alt world in which everything is horrible for the group because Buffy isn't there. There is an episode showing a (fake) alt world in which everything is horrible because Cordelia isn't there.
* Buffy is half demon. Cordelia is tricked into being half demon (the next year retconned into half PTB DNA to be durable for the Jasmine possession/pregnancy).
* Buffy ends s5 by ascending to a higher realm (Heaven) and comes back the next season months later. Cordelia ends s3 by ascending to a higher realm (wherever Jasmine was) and comes back the next season months later.
* The Scooby Gang have amnesia for an episode because Willow tried to erase Buffy's memories of being in that higher realm. The Fang Gang have amnesia for an episode because they tried to return Cordelia's memories when she returned from the higher realm.
* The first guy Buffy slept with post high school only pretended to like her to manipulate her into sex. The first guy Cordelia slept with post high school only pretended to like her to manipulate her into sex.
* Buffy goes through a portal in LA to a demon dimension where humans are made slaves and rescues 7 people including Anne who is really close to Gunn. Cordelia falls through a portal in LA to a demon dimension where humans are made slaves and the group rescue Winifred who is really close to Gunn.

* Buffy trains every week in martial arts, in s3 did Take Chi & sparring with Angel. Cordelia decides in s3 to have Angel train her every week in martial arts.
* Buffy & Angel are possessed by ghost lovers. Cordelia & Angel are possessed by ghost lovers.
* Buffy & Angel nap on his bed. Cordelia & Angel nap on his bed.
* Angel holds Buffy's hand as she lays suffering in bed. Angel holds Cordelia's hand as she lays suffering in bed.
* Buffy's boyfriend Riley leaves because he knows she is still in love with Angel. Cordelia's boyfriend Groo leaves because he thinks she is in love with Angel.
* Angel is jealous of guys who get to be in the sunlight & have sex with Buffy. Angel is jealous of guys who get to be in the sunlight & have sex with Cordelia.
* In BtVS s4 Angel wants to be at the dinner table beside Buffy. In AtS s4 Angel wants to be at the dinner table beside Cordelia.
* Angel is there for Buffy's surprise birthday party. Angel is there for Cordelia's surprise birthday party.
* The dialogue in Awakening which led to Angel losing his soul purposely plagerized the dialogue in Surprise which led to Angel losing his soul.
So true. Is there not one thing that was just part of Cangel that wasn't part of Bangel.
 

AngelsCordy

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I did not mean the relationship itself, everyone has their own opinion and for me Cordelia and Angel will always win just because of the slow build up - but this is a another matter.

I meant when someone say: Angel didnt LOVE Cordelia "just" because he did NOT recognise Cordelia was not herself.

My counter question was: Buffy did NOT either - did she really love him, when she did not notice Angel was not himself? or are the facts laid out in such a way that they fit into someone own benefits of the ships?
 

CHK DeWilSon

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I did not mean the relationship itself, everyone has their own opinion and for me Cordelia and Angel will always win just because of the slow build up - but this is a another matter.

I meant when someone say: Angel didnt LOVE Cordelia "just" because he did NOT recognise Cordelia was not herself.

My counter question was: Buffy did NOT either - did she really love him, when she did not notice Angel was not himself? or are the facts laid out in such a way that they fit into someone own benefits of the ships?

Well the situations with Angel and Cordy versus Buffy and Angel are very different in how they played out.
I'm not going to say anything about Angel not loving Cordy because he didn't recognise her it wasn't her as that's not the issue for me however it was a considerable amount of time before he and the others came to realise that something was off with Cordy to then concoct a plan to expose her as being possessed.
Now with Buffy when she went to Angel's lair and unknowingly was confronted with soulless Angel, the way he behaved she CLEARLY shows she sees that something is wrong with him but she doesn't have the capacity to understand what has happened to him given that neither she or even Angel knew at the time before their lovemaking the astronomical consequences that was to be bestowed on them all in her and Angel doing the deed.

As for Bangel vs Cangel, well of gorgeous given my photo, it's BAngel through and through.
I don't consider Cangel as toxic in the way I do the other vampire relationship that Buffy had however I never felt it was anything more than two close friends who probably should have stayed that way. I understand how it could have developed into something more but it just never felt it was the natural path for the two of them. Still I can understand why others did because of their friendship.

Still they never build to last either no matter what because of the news that they were going to get the reserve Bangel 'Becoming' storyline where Angel was going to do what Buffy has done to him.

And for me even though I absolutely despise Buffy's other vampire relationship, well it was an actual relationship in terms of the two people involved in it got to be involved with each other no matter how gruesome it felt having to watch it.
Angel and Cordy never got to properly be together as a couple. Clearly the show was trying to establish they had deep feelings for one other (whether you but that or not) however it never got the chance to come to fruit which is the tragedy of their situation.

And while I love Angel as a character, Cordelia was someone I had a dislike/like/really like relationship with but I can't honestly say I totally got to love her as a character on either show however I would gladly have keep her in ATS series 5 over any new addition that pop up on that series!
 

Priceless

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I'm a Cangel fan. Cordy brings something out of Angel that no one else can. Their friendship works on a level that feels very real to me. It feels adult and honest in a way Angel can never be with Buffy. Maybe that's because he loves Buffy in a way that means he feels he has to hide part of himself away from her. Cordy gets to see a maturer Angel, the father, the man with responsibilities who grows into himself.
 

Cangel1987

♥ Cangel ♥ Spuffy ♥
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Everyone can bend and turn the topic however they want it. For me both ships are unique in their own way - no matter in which stage of life. The first love is great there are a lot of heartache if we seprated and I bet we all went through it :) The first love will always be special.

Nevertheless, the further relationships are no less valuable. And I ship ships wherever I can put myself in - from my own experience.

I have noticed in the past few years that I prefer rare ships I have no idea why. There are also normal ships that I prefer like: Beckett/Castle and I also like sometimes side couples like: Beckett/Esposito only in the time Caskett still didnt exist. If that makes any sense. This was only a example to give you an example in the way how I ship :)
 

AngelsCordy

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I just don't understand why some say Cangel feels forced. For me was it the most natural relationship in both series. While Bangel was out of nowhere. They didn't even know much of everyone. When they started to be a item. While Cangel started out as strangers got to be friends and than falling in love, if that makes any sense.
 

Faded90

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Bangel

In End of Days a lot of the fandom say that Angel is out of character. I don’t see it that way, I actually see Angel finally being IN character after the cringeworthy way they alter his character during the ghastly Cangel storyline

there’s nothing grown up about Cangel, they never talk to each other in s3 to sort out their feelings like Bangel do.It’s not healthy because Cordy seems to stop caring about anyone who isn’t Angel ‘Angel’s feelings are the only ones I care about he’s my priority’ must be the most ghastly line they ever give Cordy - and that includes anything in season 4

In season 3 it’s apparent that the network has banned the B word because you have to ignore every single thing that made Bangel not work to make Cangel work. I know Cangels love that scene at the end of Provider but it still illustrated Cordy’s understandable likings for things that Angel can never have. Yes they joke about moonlight cruises but everything she mentions wanting he can’t have. Neither Buffy or Cordy can ever have a ‘normal life’ but they both still enjoy lots of things that young girls do and so The Mayor’s speech about Bangel still very much applies to Cangel

Plus there’s the fact he sees Cordy having sex with his son and finds it believable enough - it illustrates a lack of respect in my eyes. If he saw Buffy having sex with Connor he’d know something wasn’t right - pure speculation on my part obviously but just my theory

Honeslty mostly I just think it’s a forced storyline to appease the network who wanted Angel to have a love interest but producers trying to work it so that it’s a love story that never actually happens
 

DeepBlueJoy

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I don't think that Cangel takes anything from Bangel or vice versa. I think both of them were vitally important to the building of Angel's humanity and heart.

I believe Angel and Buffy loved each other, and always cared even after things ended. I think being with Buffy was the first time Angel ever felt loved -- that, not sex is why he lost his soul. I don't believe that you ever forget that kind of love... but i believe that the loss of the soul broke them irredeemably. There was too much bloody water under the bridge, and no easy solution for the soul.

I believe that Angel and Cordelia built something good out of being part of the same fight -- and it made both of them stronger. Cordelia made Angel find his sense of humor and she called him on things instead of giving in. He toughened her up and helped her let go of the spoiled rich girl BS.

I personally prefer Cangel, because it seems happier and a more adult, more equal relationship. Angel didn't get to make all the decisions or have all the power over little Buffy, even though Buffy probably could have broken him in half. As fragile as she was, Cordelia probably would have kicked him in the teeth if he'd pissed her off.

Emotionally, with Buffy, he called all the shots, played all the head games and had most of the power. Initially it seems sweet to me that he's basically courting her, but as time went on, it felt very paternalistic. He came, he dropped wisdom, he vanished. After he came back, he decided when it ended. He left. When he feared he couldn't protect her as a human, he decided to take back their perfect day and lied to her about that.

Because Cordelia was more confident and frankly, more of a bitch, Angel didn't pull the same stuff with her until season 4 when she came back and did not remember who she was (and may not have been who she had been). That was when he lied to her, and she ended up not trusting him and running off with Connor.

Whenever Angel decided for others -- not just for partners, bad things tended to happen. You tell people the truth, you give them the options. You don't decide for people you love or respect. You don't lie to them. You don't substitute your will and 'wisdom' for their right to AGENCY and choice. I love Angel, but that was a major issue of his, (he did it to Connor too) and Buffy was too inexperienced at relationships to call him on it.

Buffy later in the series might have been ready to deal with who he was and they might have built something, but younger Buffy was more romantic, and less able to put away the rose colored glasses... until Angel lost his soul and stomped on them good and proper.

For the ACTUAL relationship Buffy and Angel did have, it didn't have a chance to mature into something equal and mutually supportive that could have lasted for the long term. Buffy instead learned a lot of those things about relationships from the strong friendship she developed with Spike in BtVS season 7.

I would have liked to see how things might have gone with Angel and Cordelia, with him figuring out how to earn his permanent soul. What if they'd figured out that Jasmine was trying to birth herself and instead of what happened, they were able to save Cordelia, and make his soul permanent (maybe as a gift from the Powers that be for saving the world from Jasmine?) then greatly strengthened, spend season 5 taking Wolfram and Hart apart -- now that would have been interesting TV!
 

Cangel1987

♥ Cangel ♥ Spuffy ♥
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I am one of the few who thought that Angel felt out of Character in season 7 of Buffy - since he behave differently as the guy I started to like in Los Angeles :)

I don't go into detail with Bangel and Cangel - since everyone already knows my opinion. Exept for that they are differently people from the people who left Sunnydale.

Thats with a reason why I don't think it feels at all forced - since my bf and me was friends before we got together, you see I am prejudiced because of it.

And I also already started to ship them - BEFORE it was even on paper.
 
DeepBlueJoy
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Salty goodness, anyone!?

thrasherpix

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While I don't really have a horse in this race, I thought I'd mention that virtually every lover I ever had was a good friend, often known for years, before I became lovers with them. And yet Cangel still feels forced to me. (Maybe it's that I don't become lovers with every single close friend, and I consider my "soul mate" to be a friend who I will never be lovers with, but then I value many types of love which has me think about the entire concept differently from most people.)

Though then again, it's worth repeating that I just don't like how relationships start (and end) in the Jossverse, because they almost all seem weird or forced to me (better than some, but far from the best, IMO). Some are easier to accept than others. There's a lot that I like about the Jossverse, but the shipping aspects aren't one of them.

And in the case of Cangel, I see Cordelia being mind controlled (at least indirectly) by Jasmine, and that Jasmine is using Cordy to seduce Angel whether either of them realize it or not, and on the subtle side at first until Jasmine realized she had to speed up her plans before Angel got an underwater timeout so that she manifested as Cordelia's "reflection" to tell her they're in love (as Cordelia wouldn't have made such a choice if she knew Angel was missing which would mess up Jasmine's plans).
 
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