Change one thing in S5

[Skanky Vamp]

This would've made no sense since Xander had been 'key guy' too many times during the high school years for it to turn out that he wasn't actually real.

No, actually I think that would have been a cool idea.. to find out that Xander was the key and then everyone has their own Tyler Durden moments and have little call-backs to previous episodes and see how Xander was not actually there and their memories are fake. Everyone, including the audience, was duped. And all our of memories were altered because of the key. Yeah, that would have been fantastic. I would have loved that.

Sure, it would have taken some effort, but it would have been cool to see it attempted.

 

[Mr Trick]

No, actually I think that would have been a cool idea.. to find out that Xander was the key and then everyone has their own Tyler Durden moments and have little call-backs to previous episodes and see how Xander was not actually there and their memories are fake. Everyone, including the audience, was duped. And all our of memories were altered because of the key. Yeah, that would have been fantastic. I would have loved that.

Sure, it would have taken some effort, but it would have been cool to see it attempted.

Yeah, but that is why the twist of Fight Club makes no sense and why the second half of the film suffers. There is too much already establish with Xander by this point, you just wouldn't buy into the concept of him being made up. You can do it with a new character because of that lack of history. And again I'm not convinced that the Dawn/Key thing works, but the whole point is that it is reinventing the narrative of what has already happened, and to give it that air of mystique, or that WTF factor it has to be with a brand new character. 

Redundant huh...that's a nice way to dismiss my opinion. What did Dawn do in S6? Honestly? When she complained about not being in Buffy's alternate reality? Or when she whines about Buffy 'never being there' because she has to work to pay the bills? And while S7 Dawn is an ok character she doesn't make a lick of sense based on the character from S5 and S6. Where did the mature, sumerian reading genuis suddenly come from?


Buffy didn't need to become a single mom to help her gowth preocess is my point. She's been saddled with incredible responsibilities since age 15 and was a mess of a person on every front in the later Seasons largely due to those responsibilities. What I wanted was to see Buffy grow up, period. I wanted for her to figure out her life, what she wanted to do and who she was. I didn't want 'I have a life. I have Dawn's life.' Buffy because that meant no personal growth on her part was possible because her first priority was her child.

And where in my post did I mention Buffy being obsessed with boys? Though I admit it's sad that Buffy's only worth to the creative team is her being locked into the romance box. Thank God for Faith. Now there's a person who managed to grow up and who continues to do so.

1. Okay, didn't mean to dismiss your point I just thought that it was a widely held view that post-season 5 Dawn was a much stronger character, but my bad. I think you see growth in her in her first becoming attracted to boys, also she does slowly starts to respect Buffy more, and her relationship with Willow and Tara and how their issues impact on her I think is another interesting direction. I think throughout that season she does become a stronger, but also more complex character.

2. But looking after Dawn, and balancing things like the bills, and housework etc with her Slaying duties is a different kind of challenge to that which Buffy has faced before. As she ages the show has to present her with different life challenges.

3. Never said that you did say, but I guess I was pointing out that during the early seasons a big part of the character was how romantic interests. I disagree that it is like that later though, besides Riley maybe, I can't think of a relationship she has which mirrors what happens during the early seasons.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

Aww sorry I liked Dawn. Never do get why some seem to hate her so much. She was teenager after all, with all that entails emotionally. 😀

I love dawn

 

[jom]

Jom's(fixed😎) slamming Xander, not Dawn (surprise, surprise). 🙄

At least im honest, i dont like Xander, I really cant stomach that guy.

You on the other hand are the main Spike hater here but won't admit it. In every Spike debate, you are the biggest Voice slamming Spike down in every way you can, Im talking pages and pages of taking Spike down like a life's mission. I have been critical of Xander but even i get tired of that. But im critical of every character even some of my favorites like wesley and willow.

 

[thetopher]

You on the other hand are the main Spike hater here but won't admit it.

Because I'm not a hater. A hater defined is somebody who hates ALL a character does for NO REASON at all. They can't really justify their opinion.
I'm not a Spike hater because I like and enjoy soulled Spike's presence in Season's 2, 3, 4 and 5. I like his character development, I think he adds something to those seasons and wave away the silly chip-thing because hey, he's okay here.

I even like soulled Spike in most of Angel S5 (post- 'Damage') because he shows some real character development (finally).

You, on the other hand, have slammed Xander at every opportunity. You are the hater here, not me. You also seemed to have taken my comments about your blatent Xander-hate personally and are consequently lashing out in a rather incoherent manner.

In every Spike debate, you are the biggest Voice slamming Spike down in every way you can, Im talking pages and pages of taking Spike down like a life's mission.

See here.^

All utter rubbish as well. I back up my arguements with examples and am also on record saying things like 'Spike went to get a soul, not to get his chip out.' and stuff like that. Some critics of Spike don't credit him with that much at all.

I credit unsoulled Spike with more depth/likability than Angelus- he's a nicer demon. I am also on record saying that unsouled Spike did good things that had little to do with his love for Buffy- his treatment of Joyce/Dawn for example, and the fact that he stayed in Sunnydale after Buffy was long dead.

I have been critical of Xander but even i get tired of that. But im critical of every character even some of my favorites like wesley and willow.

Yeah, you're such a critic you get tired of your own shallow arguments (tell me again how Xander 'has it over Buffy' and makes her do stuff again, that was funny. 😉)
And no, I haven't seen you be half as critical with any other character as you are with Xander- you don't seem to give him any credit whatsoever until myself and I believe it was @Blaze pointed out all the good stuff he'd done in previous seasons.

I am an Andrew-hater though, but even there I set up a thread to try and explore the good things about his character, which I don't tend to see as much as some others.

Back on topic- I would lengthen 'Spiral' to make it a bit more epic and make 'The Weight Of The World' a much tighter script, because man, that episode was dull. It had a couple of good moments but the whole Glory/Ben struggle was stretched pretty thin. Also I would've had Spike kill the Doc, and not Xander, would've made the final confrontation a bit more personal.

 

[jom]

Because I'm not a hater. A hater defined is somebody who hates ALL a character does for NO REASON at all. They can't really justify their opinion.
I'm not a Spike hater because I like and enjoy soulled Spike's presence in Season's 2, 3, 4 and 5. I like his character development, I think he adds something to those seasons and wave away the silly chip-thing because hey, he's okay here.

I even like soulled Spike in most of Angel S5 (post- 'Damage') because he shows some real character development (finally).

You, on the other hand, have slammed Xander at every opportunity. You are the hater here, not me. You also seemed to have taken my comments about your blatent Xander-hate personally and are consequently lashing out in a rather incoherent manner.

You are a Spike hater. This is actually the longest positive post i have seen you write about Spike in all the debates i've seen you talk about him, and you are doing it because im putting you on the spot. Of course you like Spike now🙄.

I have not slammed Xander at every opportunity, I've even abandoned debates about him when the points debated starts going in circles. Heck i simple get tired of talking about a topic too long. I do give funny jest sometimes but mainly for fun and laughs, not to start any serious debate about it. I debated about xander seriously, i think twice or once? either way it was a big long debate and i got tired about it. In many different threads where Spike is being debated you are one of the biggest or the biggest voice, and you are slamming Spike down over and over and over, you just keep hitting that dead horse.

I have not taken anything personal, you are the one who's doing it now, saying how im lashing out and being incoherent(walking the line of personal attack). You put met on the spot about not liking Xander and i put you on the spot about not liking Spike, but i didnt expect you to blow out like this.

See here.^

All utter rubbish as well. I back up my arguements with examples and am also on record saying things like 'Spike went to get a soul, not to get his chip out.' and stuff like that. Some critics of Spike don't credit him with that much at all.

I credit unsoulled Spike with more depth/likability than Angelus- he's a nicer demon. I am also on record saying that unsouled Spike did good things that had little to do with his love for Buffy- his treatment of Joyce/Dawn for example, and the fact that he stayed in Sunnydale after Buffy was long dead.

No not utter rubbish, most of your arguments are cons Spike and you indeed back them up with the strongest force you can muster. You are saying some positive things about Spike and that's nice and good, i criticized Spike on those points, but the thing is like handing out a little piece of chocolate with your left hand and holding your right hand behind your back with a gigantic mallet ready for the slam. But you know, it's good that there's somep ositive things there. 

Yeah, you're such a critic you get tired of your own shallow arguments (tell me again how Xander 'has it over Buffy' and makes her do stuff again, that was funny. 😉)
And no, I haven't seen you be half as critical with any other character as you are with Xander- you don't seem to give him any credit whatsoever until myself and I believe it was @Blaze pointed out all the good stuff he'd done in previous seasons.

I am an Andrew-hater though, but even there I set up a thread to try and explore the good things about his character, which I don't tend to see as much as some others.

Shallow arguments? a shallow argument is someone who is intruding into someone else personal business and is told about it by that someone else, is that a shallow argument?. Umbelievable. In fact my arguments were show factual, yours were mainly opinions.

Xander has done good stuff i have not gone against that but his good stuff dont deny what i said about him.


As i said, you are the one who really are taking this too personal and almost taking it into personal attack.

 

[thetopher]

You are a Spike hater. This is actually the longest positive post i have seen you write about Spike in all the debates i've seen you talk about him, and you are doing it because im putting you on the spot. Of course you like Spike now

You're new here right? Go and look at the Spike threads and you'll see that I'm nt actually lying about the examples I've given- they're there for all to see. You called me a hater which is a personal attack, so I'm puzzled by you saying that I'm 'treating this like it's a personal attack' because thats exactly what you're doing.

I have not slammed Xander at every opportunity, I've even abandoned debates about him when the points debated starts going in circles.

You mean when you lost? Yeah, I remember. Lots of people were disagreeing with you so you gave up.

Heck i simple get tired of talking about a topic too long.

Because nobody was backing your 'Xander is mind-controlling Buffy' opinion? Shocker.

I do give funny jest sometimes but mainly for fun and laughs, not to start any serious debate about it.

I'm not sure anybody else found your 'jokes' funny. In fact people kept on telling you to give it a rest and to stop flogging a dead horse (I'm paraphrasing of course).

In many different threads where Spike is being debated you are one of the biggest or the biggest voice, and you are slamming Spike down over and over and over, you just keep hitting that dead horse.

Spike is a popular character and has many threads devoted to him so yeah, there's plenty examples of my arguments. They're conherent (for the most part) and backed up with stuff from the show. You should go and check them out instead of making stuff up.

I have not taken anything personal, you are the one who's doing it now, saying how im lashing out and being incoherent(walking the line of personal attack). You put met on the spot about not liking Xander and i put you on the spot about not liking Spike, but i didnt expect you to blow out like this.

If you call somebody a hater out of the blue- that's a personal attack imo. It's like calling somebody a troll or a lurker or whatnot. You're not just criticising their argument you're saying something about them.

No not utter rubbish, most of your arguments are cons Spike and you indeed back them up with the strongest force you can muster.

Uh, what? Strongest force I can muster? Like...giving examples and stuff? I genuinly don't know how you distinguish different types of force over the internet. Maybe if I typed in all caps or something. 😵
You're not coming across very clearly here dude, just saying.

You are saying some positive things about Spike and that's nice and good, i criticized Spike on those points, but the thing is like handing out a little piece of chocolate with your left hand and holding your right hand behind your back with a gigantic mallet ready for the slam. But you know, it's good that there's somep ositive things there.

😕
I swear to you right now that I don't have a mallet or any chocolate in my hands. I'm simply debating salient points about a character, good and bad. Again, go and check it out- you'll be surprised.

Shallow arguments? a shallow argument is someone who is intruding into someone else personal business and is told about it by that someone else, is that a shallow argument?. Umbelievable. In fact my arguments were show factual, yours were mainly opinions.

You mean like... giving an opinion? How is that intruding on 'personal business'. Go and PM people if you don't want others to comment on your post. Honestly, this is just getting embarrassing. 😳
You genuinely have that last bit backwards. You you know the meaning of actual words like 'factual' and 'opinion'? 😛

Xander has done good stuff i have not gone against that but his good stuff dont deny what i said about him.

You've denied it in the past. 'What is Xander ever done? Why are he and Buffy even friends? Xander is a terrible friend. I want Xander to disappear.' with very little in the way of opinion to back it up.
Like I said: You are the hater here, not me.

 

[gite63]

Like I said: You are the hater here, not me.

Sorry, but I agree with jom. The first thing I noticed when I was lurking was that. And, after reading the thread where you speak about watching BtVS with your niece, I start believieng you are a Bangel...

Oh, me and my big mouth. 😳

 

[Skanky Vamp]

There are many things that I do not like about season 5. Fancy that, this is about what you would change in season five, not Spike. Anyway.. there are alot of things I do not like but only one thing I would change. That involves a certain little vampire. It should not bother me so much, but it does, I hate what they did to Dracula. The dialogue of course is good, but the actor seems alittle.. weak to me. And Buffy should never have staked Dracula. The Buffy version of Dracula seemed like a Love at First Bite reject and not really something I would consider worthy of the title Dracula. And Buffy should never have had been able to stake him.

So.. that would be the one thing I would change in season 5. What would you change?

 

[gite63]

I love season 5, so I couldn't think of anything I would change, even after reading all posts...

I liked Dawn and I liked the way she as introduced; I LOVED Glory and her minions; I liked the Knights of Byzantium and Ben and Doc and the monks.

I liked the Buffybot; I liked Spike falling in love with Buffy - his discover, hers (Dawn telling her) - the uninviting, the re-inviting, the promise to a lady, all of it.

I liked Dru's appearance, I liked all Dracula stuff, I liked all about Riley, and his leaving, I liked the Initiative and the chip. I liked the Scoobies. There has to be something that I didn't like, but I can't remember right now...

 

[thetopher]

Sorry, but I agree with jom.

So, you're calling me a hater as well. Gee, thanks person-that-I've-never-had-a-conversation-with. 😉

The first thing I noticed when I was lurking was that. And, after reading the thread where you speak about watching BtVS with your niece, I start believieng you are a Bangel...

*sigh* 3 things- 1) I'm not a Bangel, but that doesn't mean that I can't appreciate their relationship on some level. I much prefer the characters of Angel and Buffy when they are not together- therefore I don't ship them. I ship Fuffy mainly, and a couple of other non-canon ships.

2) Even if I were a Bangel it doesn't follow that I'm a Spike-hater now would it? I mean, I'm trying not to jump to any conclusions here and please tell me if I'm wrong but I kinda get the impression that you're a...Spuffy? Wild stab in the dark I know.
Anyway, if you are a Spuffy it does not follow that you automatically dislike/hate Angel. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. Point is: I don't jump to unfoundeded conclusions.

3) Since I'm a massive Spike-hater then I'm sure you can go to the 'watch-through with my niece' and point to all the times that I just slammed Spike 'harder than anyone'. Y'know, its probably all there in big ol' CAPS apparently. 🙄
Or maybe, just maybe, it isn't that simple.

It should not bother me so much, but it does, I hate what they did to Dracula. The dialogue of course is good, but the actor seems alittle.. weak to me. And Buffy should never have staked Dracula. The Buffy version of Dracula seemed like a Love at First Bite reject and not really something I would consider worthy of the title Dracula. And Buffy should never have had been able to stake him.

OT- I actually liked the guy playing Dracula in that episode but I agree that Buffy shouldn't have been able to stake him so easily or maybe even at all. She should've been able to kick the crap out of him and then he mists and escapes.

The staking thing was really in aid of ONE joke where Buffy says 'you always come back.' It then turned Dracula is to a 'pure comedy' villain, which is really all that the writers stuck with in the comics.
Shame really. 🙁

 

[bespangeled]

Yeah, but that is why the twist of Fight Club makes no sense and why the second half of the film suffers. There is too much already establish with Xander by this point, you just wouldn't buy into the concept of him being made up. You can do it with a new character because of that lack of history. And again I'm not convinced that the Dawn/Key thing works, but the whole point is that it is reinventing the narrative of what has already happened, and to give it that air of mystique, or that WTF factor it has to be with a brand new character..

Just an FYI - Fight Club is about multiple personalities, AKA Divided Identity Disorder. Every single character in the movie is one personality from the same person. It's a much more interesting movie when you realize that all these fights were internal battles between different types of personality - gatekeeper, protector personalities, etc. Even the one man they named is important - finding a fragment that has great import is why that fragment gets a name.

Interesting book called "When Rabbit Howls" was written by a woman with DID.

Now back to your regularly scheduled topics.😉

 

[The Bronze]

I would change the monks re-writing history and our favourite characters in the process. This grates on me from the moment it happens and continues to grate in the comics. Changing Buffy from an only child into an older sister / surrogate mother in an attempt to shortcut her maturing rather than showing us her maturing was really poor. Even though the Dawn/Key mystery was fun first time round. Don't get me wrong I have no problem with Dawn as a character just on the effect it had.

As a side note @thetopher has actually made it very clear across multiple threads that he likes early season Spike and finds him tolerable on Angel as well. He's also pretty much up front about his dislike for souled Spike on Buffy. Not really sure what the issue is. Wouldn't this place be a bit dull if we all liked the same characters all of the time?

 

[brinkster130]

First of all, people are free to dislike any character they wish. We are all entitled to our own opinions so cut it with the "you are just a hater" nonsense.

Second, stop insulting other members and calling them names. It's against the rules, and if people continue this thread will be closed. You all should be able to have a conversation or debate without resulting to name calling.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

First of all..... blah blah blah

So... if you could change one thing in the "change one thing in S5 thread", I think it's safe to say what it would be. 😛

 

[janas]

Change one thing in S5

Easy. Kill Spike in Crush. That qualifies me as a hater? 😳

 

[Taake]

Easy. Kill Spike in Crush. That qualifies me as a hater? 😳

Technically it only makes you logical. He proves in that episode that he can do harm even with the chip so the justification that it wouldn't be right to kill him because he's harmless is void at that point.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Easy. Kill Spike in Crush. That qualifies me as a hater? 😳

No dear, that qualifies you as intelligent.

 

[Lyri]

Easy. Kill Spike in Crush. That qualifies me as a hater? 😳

I posted the same thing months ago:

Easy. Kill Spike. Either in 'Crush' or 'Intervention'. He adds pretty much nothing to the rest of that season, he wouldn't have been missed, at least not by me.

I wasn't branded a hater though. Maybe I'm just not popular enough, lol. Story of my life.

 

[RomanticSoul]

This would've made no sense since Xander had been 'key guy' too many times during the high school years for it to turn out that he wasn't actually real.

I never said Xander didn't have to be real. After all Glory predated the written word or something, has medival knights after her yet is bound to a 30 year old person. The only way for Glory to sucessfully use the key is by bleeding it during a ritual so of course the monks turn it into something that can bleed. Yeah that makes the kind of sense that doesn't. I'm sure they could have managed an equally nonsensical reason for Xander to be the key. *shrugs*