Character Inconsistency

[Wildfly]

...most realize that two teenagers making out does not equate getting suck jobs from VAMPIRES as an adult.

Now you're just being racist 😀
I am cool with vampires. I have friends who are vampires.

 

[bespangeled]

I get extremely angry and emotionally irrational when discussing that Empty Places scene and the kitchen scene with Spike. I loathe character-bashing with a firing passion, but with fanfic it's easy to ignore those fics, however, it's so much harder when it's the canon show itself. Seven years of backing Buffy up tossed into the trashcan by one big character assassination. That's a serious case of woobifying the main character. It's crappy, crappy writing when you sacrifice every single character - except the love interest of course, you need someone to put those ungrateful trainers in their places - Spike even uses those words to describe them, urgh *flashback to all the bad Spander fics with wooby Xander and meanie Scoobies and loyal heroic Spike* - just to show us how kickass and awesome and poor misunderstood Buffy is. Give me a break.

Oh, and of course, she turns out to be right. Was this plotline written by a 13 year old?

I think either it's all lacking in meaning (the B-verse), or it's all a hot mess like reality is, IMO. Keep in mind that not a single scoobie even cares that Xander was responsible for the death of everyone Sweet killed. Sometimes characters seem OOC - Dawn get punished for shoplifting but Xander has a license to kill?

However, you probably have some fans out there who agree that Buffy gave no one any reason to kick her out, and I'm one of those😀

 

[gite63]

It just doesn't make sense for Xander, Willow and Dawn to side with Faith over Buffy. I'm sorry, but that's OOC no matter what anyone says.

They wouldn't. But

Xander had just lost his eye and was shaken and afraid, as well as Willow – they had never been seriously injured in all those years fighting against evil. Do you think someone who had almost lost his vision would be in a state of “heroic” mind, so to speak? Not afraid at all to go to battle again? And Willow, his best friend for years, how do you think she was feeling knowing Xander was maimed forever? In the hospital, their conversation was heartbreaking; they were miserable, they were deeply hurt, they were lost. Will holding Xander's hand...

Then, there is Giles. Giles had betrayed Buffy and Buffy had made clear that she didn't accept his decision or way of thinking, pissing him off. Giles is the one who doesn't let go, he holds to his grudges and acts upon them; Buffy, still mad at him, said that he had sent Spike away (“You sent away the one person that's been watching my back—again”), and later he made sure to repeat it for all people in the room (“Didn't you say to me today you can't trust us?).

I bet that Giles was the one who suggested or lead all them to believe that Buffy wasn't the one fit for leading them anymore; when she arrived at the house, Buffy already had no chance with those people – whatever she may have said, they would have shut her down. Willow and Xander, broken and despondent, followed Giles; the only one I think that was really OC, was Dawn – she always had taken her sister side: she threatened Spike very fiercely, and if looks could kill, Faith would be dead when she arrived at the Summer's house; so, I don't understand her motivation.

Something (a little) similar happened in Once More With Feeling – Giles decided that it was up to Buffy, and only Buffy, to go saving Dawn from Sweet, and Xander and Willow let Buffy leave:

WILLOW: We're not just gonna stay here.
GILES: Yes we are. Buffy's going alone.

Of course, they changed their minds. Interesting that Spike said then:

SPIKE: Look, forget them, Slayer. I've got your back.

He was the only one who had her back... (of course, she shut him down, but that's not the point).

 

[bespangeled]

I get it that it may anger the fans who don't like the ugly side of their characters shown and wish to see episodes with the good characters always being right and making rational decisions, unthwarted by evil, but i personally wouldn't have omitted the split, except liked to see it with a bit better writing.

I'm both - I am angry at the characters for behaving the way they did when they kicked Buffy out, but I'm also aware of the various reasons why they did it, on a purely Doylist level. It was kind of the perfect storm for each individual - and it hit with each at the same point.

But the plot of 'leader is betrayed and voted down by his friends and by the public that praised him before' is valid, it's very much present in history and in fiction, when old friends drift apart and betrayal rears it's ugly head.

And the old friends drifting apart is what happens - not a comic reader, but by the end of the episode, I really seem them all going away. Sunnydale no longer exists, and the bonds of friendship have been kinda stripped bare. They will never have anything close to the relationship that they had - it's all gone now.

 

They wouldn't. But

Xander had just lost his eye and was shaken and afraid, as well as Willow – they had never been seriously injured in all those years fighting against evil. Do you think someone who had almost lost his vision would be in a state of “heroic” mind, so to speak? Not afraid at all to go to battle again? And Willow, his best friend for years, how do you think she was feeling knowing Xander was maimed forever? In the hospital, their conversation is heartbreaking; they are miserable, they are deeply hurt, they are lost. Will holding Xander's hand...

Then, there is Giles. Giles had betrayed Buffy and Buffy had made clear that she didn't accept his decision or way of thinking, pissing him off. Giles is the one who doesn't let go, he holds to his grudges and acts upon them; Buffy, still mad at him, said that he had sent Spike away (“You sent away the one person that's been watching my back—again”), and later he made sure to repeat it for all people in the room (“Didn't you say to me today you can't trust us?).

I bet that Giles was the one who suggested or lead all them to believe that Buffy wasn't the one fit for leading them anymore; when she arrived at the house, Buffy already had no chance with those people – whatever she may have said, they would have shut her down. Willow and Xander, broken and despondent, followed Giles; the only one I think that was really OC, was Dawn – she always had taken her sister side: she threatened Spike very fiercely, and if looks could kill, Faith would be dead when she arrived at the Summer's house; so, I don't understand her motivation.

Something (a little) similar happened in Once More With Feeling – Giles decided that it was up to Buffy, and only Buffy, to go saving Dawn from Sweet, and Xander and Willow let Buffy leave:

WILLOW: We're not just gonna stay here.
GILES: Yes we are. Buffy's going alone.

Of course, they changed their minds. Interesting that Spike said then:

SPIKE: Look, forget them, Slayer. I've got your back.

He was the only one who had her back... (of course, she shut him down, but that's not the point).

He was also the only one who wasn't standing there watching her burn to death.😕

 

[Icarium]

A little puppy dies every time people say Buffy was kicked out in Empty Places. No, seriously - why do people insist on saying that? If I say "Do [something] or I am leaving" and someone refuses to do it this does not, I repeat, does not, mean they are kicking me out. The betrayal talk is overblown as well - it's not like anyone, even Cheekbones the Faithful, had sworn an oath of fealty to Buffy, so they can follow whomever they want (villains excluded, of course) without being automatically branded as traitors as far as I am concerned.

I get extremely angry and emotionally irrational when discussing that Empty Places scene and the kitchen scene with Spike. I loathe character-bashing with a firing passion, but with fanfic it's easy to ignore those fics, however, it's so much harder when it's the canon show itself. Seven years of backing Buffy up tossed into the trashcan by one big character assassination. That's a serious case of woobifying the main character. It's crappy, crappy writing when you sacrifice every single character - except the love interest of course, you need someone to put those ungrateful trainers in their places - Spike even uses those words to describe them, urgh *flashback to all the bad Spander fics with wooby Xander and meanie Scoobies and loyal heroic Spike* - just to show us how kickass and awesome and poor misunderstood Buffy is. Give me a break.

Oh, and of course, she turns out to be right. Was this plotline written by a 13 year old?

Why are you insulting 13 year olds?!? No 13 year old can come up with plans quite so spectacularly stupid as season 7 Buffy's plans.

Kidding aside, I very much agree (although I believe the intention was to prop up not so much Buffy but Spike, the ever faithful follower). Though ironically, this "twist" was so poorly executed that I applauded the Scoobies all the way, even Faith whom I generally can't stand - and one of the reasons was the blatant manipulation that was urging to back Buffy, the never wrong leader.

But with the experience and hopefully, maturity of adulthood, most realize that two teenagers making out does not equate getting suck jobs from VAMPIRES as an adult.

That's a little misleading, don't you think? You make it sound as if Riley was getting literal blowjobs, instead of metaphorical ones. Now, mind you, I think that was an astonishingly stupid plotline all around but what Xander and Willow did is much closer to cheating that what Riley did.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Cheekbones the Faithful

😀

 

[FellDownAlone]

Actually Jss was willing to do that with some actors - we all know that Denisoff had the choice of either fighting bravely or falling apart in his final BTVS episode and he chose to get knocked out. Not sure who all else got choices but it seems they were all small choices.

I believe Emma was the one who decided that Anya would die at the end of the series. So, I know that some actors got some say in the work. But, from my understanding, the Walking Dead goes over quite a bit of the decisions and the scripts with the majority of the cast. I could be wrong, but that's how it has been played out by the cast and those behind the scenes.

 

[cryptwarmer]

That's a little misleading, don't you think? You make it sound as if Riley was getting literal blowjobs, instead of metaphorical ones. Now, mind you, I think that was an astonishingly stupid plotline all around but what Xander and Willow did is much closer to cheating that what Riley did.

I think suck job is a fair term for the act of paying a vamp to suck your blood.

This is an interesting example of equal to, greater than, less than. What constitutes betrayal.

To some people actual sexual betrayal is the worst thing a person could do to them.

Not true for everyone.

We are also dealing with the fact that vampire bites are often considered to have a sexual aspect, both literally and metaphorically.

It's impossible to know how much this is true for the various characters, and how much an individual viewer buys into that.

Like the act of sex, a vampire bite can be violent, sensual, or consensual. Or a service provided at a cost.

Given that Buffy is the Slayer, Riley's behavior could be seen as equal to or greater than having sexual contact with someone outside of the relationship, or visiting a prostitute, or even visiting a crack house.

Each of us is likely to apply our own filter to exactly what that act represents.

Ultimately what is the issue? Is it that someone is going outside of the relationship to get an intimate need met?

Willow and Xander were two very young people who thought there was a good chance they were going to die. They had decided not to pursue a relationship until it literally looked like it didn't matter anymore.

Riley was a grown man, not in a life and death situation who freely chose to engage in that behavior, repeatedly, while actively hiding it from Buffy.

I agree, stupid plot line, but in my book, Riley's behavior represented a much more serious breach of trust and actual betrayal. Given how often vampire bites are given sexual connotations, I think in Buffyland that counts as cheating.

I don't blame Riley for being brassed off about Dracula.
 

Now you're just being racist 😀
I am cool with vampires. I have friends who are vampires.

I'm cool (and more than a little hot) with vampires myself.

The difference is...I'm not dating the Slayer.

 

[bespangeled]

Ultimately what is the issue? Is it that someone is going outside of the relationship to get an intimate need met?

The issue is that Riley could get turned - putting everyone who knows him and trusts him at risk.

 

[cryptwarmer]

The issue is that Riley could get turned - putting everyone who knows him and trusts him at risk.

Definitely graver matter than adolescent lip lock!

So many ways to betray trust.

 

[Icarium]

Willow and Xander were two very young people who thought there was a good chance they were going to die. They had decided not to pursue a relationship until it literally looked like it didn't matter anymore.

First time they kissed they were in no danger whatsoever, unless you count putting on fancy clothes as mortal danger. And they kept it on for for a few episodes. It's not like they kissed in Lovers Walk right in time for Oz and Cordelia to catch them red-handed and that was it.

I agree, stupid plot line, but in my book, Riley's behavior represented a much more serious breach of trust and actual betrayal. Given how often vampire bites are given sexual connotations, I think in Buffyland that counts as cheating.

Not in my book. Riley was wrong to get all worked up about Dracula or the mark Angel's bite left on Buffy, IMO. And Buffy is totally justified to feel betrayed by Riley, don't get me wrong, just not sexually. I mean, if he had gotten "suck jobs" from some vampires who looked like the Master I doubt anyone would think there was anything sexual in those acts. 🙂

 

[sosa lola]

I get it that it may anger the fans who don't like the ugly side of their characters shown and wish to see episodes with the good characters always being right and making rational decisions,

I seriously hope you don't think this is why I'm upset with the scene. I don't care about my favorite characters making mistakes. Heck, my favorite character is Xander Freaking Harris. The most flawed character among them all. I didn't mind "Kick his ass" and his assholic attitude in Revelation because they were in character. They made sense for his character to act that way.

My issue with Empty places/Touched isn't my favorite characters acting like jerks, but the execution. One battle where only two slayers were killed and Xander losing his eye isn't enough for a freaking mutiny. At least by the Scoobies who have faced worse things than that. Jenny Calendar was killed by Angelus for God's sake and no one kicked Buffy out of school for suggesting to give him his soul back - Giles who was the wronged party was very understanding - only Xander and Cordelia had a problem with it.

That's also another problem I had with Empty Places/Touched: all the characters now are against Buffy? All of them? All of them want her out of the house? Why didn't Xander or Willow object when Dawn asked Buffy to leave? Seems far more in character. Why didn't they run after her like Faith did? Why didn't they start searching for her or even feel bad about what they did?

It's bad writing. The Scoobies/potentials/Wood are treated like one character with one mindset not different individuals.

 

[Wildfly]

My issue with Empty places/Touched isn't my favorite characters acting like jerks, but the execution. One battle where only two slayers were killed and Xander losing his eye isn't enough for a freaking mutiny.

not sure, never lost an eye. But losing a friend in battle and then attending their funeral then dealing afterwards can be very traumatic from what I saw.
And what you mean 'only two'?

At least by the Scoobies who have faced worse things than that. Jenny Calendar was killed by Angelus for God's sake and no one kicked Buffy out of school for suggesting to give him his soul back - Giles who was the wronged party was very understanding - only Xander and Cordelia had a problem with it.

Because they trusted her to kill Angel.
In season 7 after the defeat she lost their trust. They thought she was irresponsible and blamed those deaths on her.

That's also another problem I had with Empty Places/Touched: all the characters now are against Buffy? All of them? All of them want her out of the house? Why didn't Xander or Willow object when Dawn asked Buffy to leave? Seems far more in character. Why didn't they run after her like Faith did? Why didn't they start searching for her or even feel bad about what they did?
It's bad writing. The Scoobies/potentials/Wood are treated like one character with one mindset not different individuals.

Why at war people act like herd and not as individuals, listening to some crazy dictator? Good question. I never understood it. Or how in ww1 perfectly sane people were ready to slaughter each other for empty slogans.

 

[sosa lola]

Keep in mind that not a single scoobie even cares that Xander was responsible for the death of everyone Sweet killed. Sometimes characters seem OOC - Dawn get punished for shoplifting but Xander has a license to kill?

Clearly that's because Joss and the writers didn't think this stuff through. They wanted a musical and couldn't care less about how bad the summoner of Sweet would look because of those deaths. It had nothing to do with Xander's character sadly. He was chosen to summon Sweet for a stupid joke. It wasn't "part of his character arc" in S6.

Something (a little) similar happened in Once More With Feeling – Giles decided that it was up to Buffy, and only Buffy, to go saving Dawn from Sweet, and Xander and Willow let Buffy leave:

WILLOW: We're not just gonna stay here.
GILES: Yes we are. Buffy's going alone.

Of course, they changed their minds. Interesting that Spike said then:

SPIKE: Look, forget them, Slayer. I've got your back.

He was the only one who had her back... (of course, she shut him down, but that's not the point).

Spike wasn't the only one who had her back in the episode because later a guilty Giles would wonder if he was leaving Dawn in danger just to teach Buffy how to be responsible, then an angry Xander would point out "What if Buffy can't defeat it?" and Anya would agree with Xander that they were needed and should be out there helping Buffy. Then the whole group head after Buffy to help her.

We didn't see that in Empty Places/Touched.
 

And what you mean 'only two'?

Only two potentials were killed. The others were injured.

In season 7 after the defeat she lost their trust.

That wasn't the only time Buffy was defeated in seven years. I don't see all of them losing their trust in her then.

Why at war people act like herd and not as individuals, listening to some crazy dictator? Good question. I never understood it. Or how in ww1 perfectly sane people were ready to slaughter each other for empty slogans.

The thing is Buffy isn't just some crazy dictator they have no relation to and to hell with her. She's a sister and a best friend. Those guys are supposed to be family, not some people who didn't know each other put together to fight a war. I can see the potentials wanting Buffy out, they don't know her, to them she is some crazy dictator.

 

[gite63]

Spike wasn't the only one who had her back in the episode because later a guilty Giles would wonder if he was leaving Dawn in danger just to teach Buffy how to be responsible, then an angry Xander would point out "What if Buffy can't defeat it?" and Anya would agree with Xander that they were needed and should be out there helping Buffy. Then the whole group head after Buffy to help her.

We didn't see that in Empty Places/Touched.

The situations were very different. Besides they being in the middle of war, Xander and Willow, as I pointed out, were going through something that had never happened to them; even Jenny's death can't be compared to that - it's ugly, but it's real, it's human nature: Giles lost a girlfriend, a woman died, but Xander losing an eye was something way worse for both of them; they were numb. Even Buffy was in denial mode - she wanted to focus on the job, and not talk about it (Faith noticed it when Dawn was pushing the subject).
 

Clearly that's because Joss and the writers didn't think this stuff through. They wanted a musical and couldn't care less about how bad the summoner of Sweet would look because of those deaths. It had nothing to do with Xander's character sadly. He was chosen to summon Sweet for a stupid joke. It wasn't "part of his character arc" in S6.

Yeah, should have been someone out side of the group, simply as that. Some woman that Sweet would take with him, and the Sccobies would let because she wanted (crazy demon lover), and because she caused many deaths.

This and Spike being the Doctor were things that they didn't think through. Spike could have kept the eggs "for a friend" (for money, of course), and this "friend" would have been the Doctor - and he/it, as soon as Riley and wify arrived in town, got the hell out of there; better losing the merchandise than be caught and killed. Spike being an international dealer was too much - and he was too poor for that.

 

[Wildfly]

Only two potentials were killed. The others were injured.

Two is a lot. They were a few to begin with. We can compare it to the losses at the battle of Dunkirk 🙂

The thing is Buffy isn't just some crazy dictator

No, she is a benevolent one 🙂

...they have no relation to and to hell with her. She's a sister and a best friend. Those guys are supposed to be family, not some people who didn't know each other put together to fight a war. I can see the potentials wanting Buffy out, they don't know her, to them she is some crazy dictator.

You forget they're waging a war. A war, as they see it, they're losing because of Buffy's irresponsibility. The point i tried to make was to explain how people behave like a herd at times of war, blindly obeying authority - as you asked why those scared people in Empty Places suddenly lost their individuality.
Buffy lost a battle and so she also lost her authority and the group elected a new leader. Yes, they loved her, but they were doing what they thought is the best. What Giles thought is the best.

You, for example, i guess, usually arent trying to kill perfect strangers and marching in khaki obeying orders without question. But you probably would done so in some war.

The point about Willow and Xander trusting Gileses judgement is also a very good one.
In Once More With Feeling they indeed listen to him, (except Spike who was always a rebel) and only when he voices his doubts that maybe they should help Buffy they join in. Notice, Giles is the first saying (well singing) it.

 

[sosa lola]

The situations were very different. Besides they being in the middle of war, Xander and Willow, as I pointed out, were going through something that had never happened to them; even Jenny's death can't be compared to that - it's ugly, but it's real, it's human nature: Giles lost a girlfriend, a woman died, but Xander losing an eye was something way worse for both of them; they were numb. Even Buffy was in denial mode - she wanted to focus on the job, and not talk about it (Faith noticed it when Dawn was pushing the subject).

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I still see the whole kicking Buffy out of her own house and not even caring if she was alive or dead until being yelled at by Spike the very next day as OOC and character assassination. Bad character bashing Spuffy fanfic complete with Buffy being right and them being wrong and then Buffy comes back all angelic and sainty and not holding grudges, all Mary Sue-y... God, I wanna kill myself.

This is the last I'm gonna talk about this crap. Sorry if I offended anyone, but gigantic bad writing like that really pisses me off.

Yeah, should have been someone out side of the group, simply as that. Some woman that Sweet would take with him, and the Sccobies would let because she wanted (crazy demon lover), and because she caused many deaths.

I'd say a man is more appropriate. Joss can still keep his "Be your queen" joke. Also, I can't see the Scoobies allowing Sweet to take a woman with him to hell - unless she wanted to go.

This and Spike being the Doctor were things that they didn't think through. Spike could have kept the eggs "for a friend" (for money, of course), and this "friend" would have been the Doctor - and he/it, as soon as Riley and wify arrived in town, got the hell out of there; better losing the merchandise than be caught and killed. Spike being an international dealer was too much - and he was too poor for that.

I agree. It seems like they were going out of their way to show how different Buffy and Riley's lives are. Spike being the Doctor doesn't really make sense. Also, the lack of buildup. It's like they cooked up this storyline right before shooting the episode.

 

[gite63]

Two is a lot. They were a few to begin with.

It is, but, I repeat, the most devasting thing for them was Xander losing his eye; human nature, you know - love is a selfish thing (@bespangeled).

I'd say a man is more appropriate. Joss can still keep his "Be your queen" joke.

Yeah, it could be. The point of the whole thing was to make Buffy reveal that she was in Heaven, and for that they didn't need to make any of the characters look bad - and then forget about it.

 

[bespangeled]

Not in my book. Riley was wrong to get all worked up about Dracula or the mark Angel's bite left on Buffy, IMO. And Buffy is totally justified to feel betrayed by Riley, don't get me wrong, just not sexually. I mean, if he had gotten "suck jobs" from some vampires who looked like the Master I doubt anyone would think there was anything sexual in those acts. 🙂

Suck jobs are dangerous. Let's go with a nice non-sexual choice of injecting drugs and reusing needles. This isn't having an affair - but it is putting Buffy at risk of being infected with many diseases. There's also the risk that some drugs could cause him to attack others unexpectedly - like Dawn or Joyce. Suck jobs - way more dangerous that innocent kisses.

That's also another problem I had with Empty Places/Touched: all the characters now are against Buffy? All of them? All of them want her out of the house? Why didn't Xander or Willow object when Dawn asked Buffy to leave? Seems far more in character. Why didn't they run after her like Faith did? Why didn't they start searching for her or even feel bad about what they did?

It's bad writing. The Scoobies/potentials/Wood are treated like one character with one mindset not different individuals.

Clearly that's because Joss and the writers didn't think this stuff through. They wanted a musical and couldn't care less about how bad the summoner of Sweet would look because of those deaths. It had nothing to do with Xander's character sadly. He was chosen to summon Sweet for a stupid joke. It wasn't "part of his character arc" in S6.

Yup - it's kind of an easy way to deal with the B-verse. People do things that bother you so blame the writers, Joss, the other producers. But I really do try to stay in-verse so it doesn't work for me. This isn't an agree to disagree - it's more like I'm watching Buffy while you are searching background and mechanics. Is cool, IMO😀

 

[Icarium]

Suck jobs are dangerous. Let's go with a nice non-sexual choice of injecting drugs and reusing needles. This isn't having an affair - but it is putting Buffy at risk of being infected with many diseases. There's also the risk that some drugs could cause him to attack others unexpectedly - like Dawn or Joyce. Suck jobs - way more dangerous that innocent kisses.

A great many things are more dangerous than kissing (or sex for that matter), and yet people tend to regard cheating in romantic relationship as more of a betrayal than most of those things. And in any event, strictly kissing also can transmit diseases, you know. For all we know, vampire blood and teeth might be sterile because magic. 🙂 IIRC, nobody in the show raised any infection related objection to the infamous suck jobs, I don't see why we should. It was a very transparent and silly device for sending Riley away I doubt the writers spent any time thinking on its possible implications or interpretation other than the clumsy cheating metaphor. The very notion of vampires offering suck jobs for money and being tolerated the Council and previous Slayers is preposterous.