Character Inconsistency

[thetopher]

I wish instead of being kicked out she'd really stormed off or have taken a break in the middle of the apocalypse as the group's official version said...

How about 'she had a hissy fit and went off to sulk because we didn't all want to jump off a cliff with her?'
There are three sides to this: Buffy/Spike, the Scoobies and the truth.

Let her group to be independent and really try to solve a problem instead of digging her out of her grave.

I think it would've been a nice twist if Buffy had been utterly wrong and therefore the rest succeeded without her. Certainly would've made more sense plot-wise...

Most of the time they hide behind her back. They talked big, so maybe Buffy should have stopped being their kindegarden teacher.

Interestingly Willow saved the damn day, not Buffy. That's the pattern really, Buffy would've gotten about as far as 'Prophecy Girl' without her friends help, she should've remembered that.

 

[Wildfly]

Well, i have this version of their history,
but it's not the official one which was edited and approved by big brother Giles...:


BUFFY
I can't watch you just throw away everything that— (looks at Xander and at Dawn, who's not meeting her glance; Buffy holds her head up high) I know I'm right about this. I just need a little—
I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster.

DAWN
(stands, walks up to Buffy, softly) Then you can't stay here.
Buffy, I love you, but you were right. We have to be together on this.
You can't be a part of it. (Buffy blinks her eyes in disbelief) So I need you to leave.
I'm sorry, but this is my house, too.


In my book it isn't called 'storming off', neither 'deciding to take a break', but being kicked out.
But then, English isn't my native language, so i might be wrong, good sirs.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

How about 'she had a hissy fit and went off to sulk because we didn't all want to jump off a cliff with her?'
There are three sides to this: Buffy/Spike, the Scoobies and the truth.

I would say four sides, as Rona (i think thats who said it) "it's not about you and spike, it's about you"
I would say the sides were Buffy, Spike, Scoobies and the truth. It's funny because Faith said "I didn't come here to be your lapdog" and that is exactly what Spike was.. so Buffy needed a lapdog all along now that her previous ones jumped off her lap.

 

[gite63]

The only person who I don't understand the motivation was Dawn (although later she did say she didn't feel well about the situation); Giles was mad at Buffy because she didn't appreciate much his betrayal; Xander and Willow were too shaken, and followed Giles.

So, they kick The Slayer out of her own house, and give the leadership to Faith, with all the Potentials following her graciously, because - as Rona pointed out - she was a Slayer too.

But the Scoobies failed to mention Faith's track record, they apparently didn't tell the girls that, while Buffy had been committed to the mission for years, Faith allied herself with villains and killed people, and had no experience in leadership. And that got girls killed.

Thinking of that, it was almost criminal what the Scoobies did (mainly Giles) - leading a bunch of inexperienced Potentials believe that having Faith would be the same as having Buffy.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

out of her own house

Out of her and Dawn's house; not her own house. I doubt Joyce, as horrible a mother as she was, would have left the house to just one child. Often parents will leave their estate to all of their kids, for their kids to short and split at a later date. So in my eyes it was never Buffy's "own" house.. it was their house. Where was Dawn supposed to live if she didn't "fall in line" as Buffy commanded? Buffy would have essentially then kicked Dawn out of her own house.

 

[Wildfly]

Buffy, as opposed to Dawn (or Joyce) would never have kicked a family member out of the house no matter what they did or didn't do. Not her style.

Quite the contrary, she provided shelter to everyone who was in need.

They could have reached a consensus. Instead they decided they have another slayer so they can switch Buffy, so they got rid of her.

 

[thetopher]

Andrew told the Potentials all about Faith's track record and what she'd done. They even had a montage about how bad she'd been.
And as for Faith's leadership; the gang at AI had zero complains- she impressed a bunch of professional monster-hunters pretty quickly with her decisive actions Although she also listened to Wesley.
And Faith listened to the advice of others, we saw the collective plan develop step-by-step without anybody screaming 'its a trap, why won't you listen?'
Faith was being a leader, I don't know what the hell Buffy was being at that point.

It's the emotive language I don't get. the 'betrayal', 'kicked out of her house', all totally inaccurate. They simply made a choice and Buffy wasn't it. Did they pay for that choice? Yes, possibly to the delight of some, but it was- imo- an understandable choice.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Buffy, as opposed to Dawn (or Joyce) would never have kicked a family member out of the house no matter what they did or didn't do. Not her style.

But when she said "we have to be together on this", "you have to fall in line", what do you think she would have done to the ones that didn't? Let them stay and undermine her efforts? She had already accused them of ambushing her.

 

[Wildfly]

It wasn't a constructive choice, @thetopher. Finding someone to blame and throwing her out. Why you don't like when people call things by their names? It's what they did. they threw her out, kicked her out.
Why you insist chosing an euphemism for their actions?

It's never good to send away experienced warriors/generals and be divided before a battle, that way lies sure defeat.
That's why Buffy, Giles and the more experienced scoobies, the veterans should have done everything to unite the group. From what i saw, only Buffy tried to do that, the others were trying to get rid of her. The results we know 🙁

 

[Skanky Vamp]

"I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster"
"then you cant stay here"

That is not kicking her out. Buffy made the decision to give them a ultimatum. She thought at the last minute that little power play would get them to change their minds.
 

It's never good to send away experienced warriors/generals and be divided before a battle, that way lies sure defeat.

That's exactly why Faith said "can you follow" because Faith didn't want to lose her. That's when Buffy gave the ultimatum.

 

[gite63]

It's never good to send away experienced warriors/generals and be divided before a battle, that way lies sure defeat.
That's why Buffy, Giles and the more experienced scoobies, the veterans should have done everything to unite the group. From what i saw, only Buffy tried to do that, the others were trying to get rid of her. The results we know 🙁

I had forgotten Andrew's drabble in Dirty Girls:

Faith. Her name alone invokes awe.
Faith. A set of principles or beliefs on which you are willing to devote your life.
The dark slayer.
A lethal combination of beauty, power, and death.
For years and years — or to be more accurate — months, Faith fought on the side of good, terrorizing the evil community.
But like so many tragic heroes, Faith was seduced by the lure of the dark side.
She wrapped evil around her like a large, evil Mexican serape.
She became a cold-blooded killer.
Nobody was immune to her trail of destruction.
Not friends, not family...
Not even the most pacifist and logical of races

Anyway, Giles and the Scoobies knew Faith, and they did neglect to tell the Potentials that Faith wasn't like Buffy, at all.

 

[Wildfly]

the thing is, there weren't any good ideas. any alternative. any good strategical planning.
They were united against Buffy and they got rid of her. It's all they did.
Then -- then they had no idea what to do. It was a disaster.

That's why they should have discussed things with Buffy. Willow, Xander and Giles and the others hould have tried to explain to her how they feel. That they think she is a dictator. That in their opinion she is acting unreasonably. That they are all tired and scared. That right now they don't trust her to make the right decisions That they should go sleep and discuss everything in the morning and try to reach a consensus.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

They were united against Buffy

They were NOT united against Buffy. They were united against her plan. And they had every right to be considering what had just happened.
 
@Wildfly " So they should have all cooled off and discussed it in the morning instead of making rash decisions they'd regretted later." They should have, but Buffy gave them no choice. She said it was not up for debate. That they had to fall in line. She was the leader and they would follow her plan. That's why Faith suggested she sleep on it. But Buffy said no, she decided what they were going to do.

 

[thetopher]

Exactly. They'd all gathered to welcome Xander come from hospital and Buffy chooses that moment- i.e not the best- to say 'Hey guys, new plan that's suspiciously similar to the old plan' and when everyone is reluctant Buffy is the one that forces the issue and starts thinking that Faith and Giles set her up for betrayal.
It's sad that people actually seem to beleive that

Why you don't like when people call things by their names? It's what they did. they threw her out, kicked her out.
Why you insist chosing an euphemism for their actions?

I tend to try and see things as they actually happened rather than get emotive about it. Nobody kicked Buffy out, she gave an ultimatum and then didn't like the result. Rather than swallowing her pride and maybe yeilding the floor she stormed out.
That's what actually happened. They all made a choice, Buffy didn't like it.
Now should she have left? No. The others should've made her stay and think things through, but everyone was feeling raw and its seems obvious from the aftermath that everyojne thought that Buffy would come back given enough time away to think.

 

[Wildfly]

Didn't seemed that way. And i dont mean Rona's
"Ding-dong, the witch is dead".

It seemed (even though they didn't have any good plan) that they were set on doing this thing by themselves. Until their defeat when they realized they need Buffy back they were sure they did the right thing... um...sending her to a short recreational vacation.

...
on another topic, could you guys pls tell me, is Faith smarter in the comics? less gullible? did she develop her own style? i am not trying to be ironic, i am really curious if i should read it.

 

[Athena]

Could it have been in reference to Tabula Rasa or Ben being Glory?

Tabula Rasa is a perfect episode and I would never dream of thinking otherwise 😀

 

[gite63]

Faith did a great job in L.A. - she certainly was a fighter, put herself in the line and was loyal to the cause; besides, Angel always brought the best in her (and she didn't have to lead an army of girls in the middle of a war).

But in any way she matched Buffy's experience, and Giles - who was a Watcher, who had already meddled with the dark forces, who knew Buffy, who knew Faith and whose age should have given him some sageness - should never have made the Potentials believe that Buffy was expendable because they had "other Slayer" in their middle. And all out of anger, it seems, even bringing to all them something that Buffy had said to him earlier (about not trusting them), to stir the pot.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Faith and whose age should have given him some sageness - should never have made the Potentials believe that Buffy was expendable because they had "other Slayer" in their middle.

She did; She said she wasn't leader material, that that was Buffy. It wasn't until Buffy (verbally) attacked Faith that Faith started to side with everyone else in the room.

 

[gite63]

She did; She said she wasn't leader material, that that was Buffy. It wasn't until Buffy (verbally) attacked Faith that Faith started to side with everyone else in the room.

I meant that Giles was old and he should know better...

And Buffy had a point - Faith did earn some points with the Potentials by having been cool with them.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I tend to try and see things as they actually happened rather than get emotive about it. Nobody kicked Buffy out, she gave an ultimatum and then didn't like the result. Rather than swallowing her pride and maybe yeilding the floor she stormed out.
That's what actually happened. They all made a choice, Buffy didn't like it.
Now should she have left? No. The others should've made her stay and think things through, but everyone was feeling raw and its seems obvious from the aftermath that everyojne thought that Buffy would come back given enough time away to think.

Buffy's ultimatum is very much like Joss Whedon's ultimatum with the studio about getting a sixth season for Angel. Worked exactly as well, too.