Character Inconsistency

[bespangeled]

A great many things are more dangerous than kissing (or sex for that matter), and yet people tend to regard cheating in romantic relationship as more of a betrayal than most of those things. And in any event, strictly kissing also can transmit diseases, you know. For all we know, vampire blood and teeth might be sterile because magic. 🙂 IIRC, nobody in the show raised any infection related objection to the infamous suck jobs, I don't see why we should. It was a very transparent and silly device for sending Riley away I doubt the writers spent any time thinking on its possible implications or interpretation other than the clumsy cheating metaphor. The very notion of vampires offering suck jobs for money and being tolerated the Council and previous Slayers is preposterous.

The disease idea was a metaphor for the chance that Riley could get turned. Hell, half the vamp population has to know who he is and that he's with the slayer. Whether or not it's mentioned specifically the risk is there.

As for the rest - Riley become a selfish needy little high maintenance whiny bitch boy at this stage of the game. The entire conversation is disgusting - blaming Buffy because she won't change into his ideal for a woman, and then claiming he is the victim of intolerable pain because she's too busy to cater to his needs.

 

[sosa lola]

Yup - it's kind of an easy way to deal with the B-verse. People do things that bother you so blame the writers, Joss, the other producers.

It bothered me that Xander lied to Buffy in Becoming. It bothered me that he cheated on Cordelia. It bothered me that he left Anya at the altar. But I don't blame the writers for it because it's in character. It had build up. It had consequences - except for Kick His Ass sadly.

This is not a case of my favorite character did something I dislike and I don't accept it. Even if Xander wasn't in that scene, I'd still be upset. I just really hate woobyfying the main character and sacrificing every other character on the show to do it. Heck, lots of old Spander fics did it. A lot. And I hate those fics.

 

[bespangeled]

It bothered me that Xander lied to Buffy in Becoming. It bothered me that he cheated on Cordelia. It bothered me that he left Anya at the altar. But I don't blame the writers for it because it's in character. It had build up. It had consequences - except for Kick His Ass sadly.

This is not a case of my favorite character did something I dislike and I don't accept it. Even if Xander wasn't in that scene, I'd still be upset. I just really hate woobyfying the main character and sacrificing every other character on the show to do it. Heck, lots of old Spander fics did it. A lot. And I hate those fics.

Wait - you also said OMWF was a problem of the writing, so you aren't just talking about one scene. You've got several episodes in that list where the writers/Joss/ etc blew it now, and that's cool. Like I said, I really do try to stay in-verse so it doesn't work for me. It can be hard sometimes - and incredibly hard other times. But there has to be some source of dramatic tension, and if I decide that this is completely contrived then the Buffy bus goes off the rails from that time onward.

I know a lot of people have a huge problem with a lot of what happened late in season 7 - and that alone proves that this is really a superior series of evenst. The purpose of art is to create strong emotions - not many places in the B-verse with stronger reactions than the 2nd half of this season. Of course, I love season 6, too.

 

[cryptwarmer]

[QUOTE="Icarium, post: 1167711, member: ]



Not in my book. Riley was wrong to get all worked up about Dracula or the mark Angel's bite left on Buffy, IMO. And Buffy is totally justified to feel betrayed by Riley, don't get me wrong, just not sexually. I mean, if he had gotten "suck jobs" from some vampires who looked like the Master I doubt anyone would think there was anything sexual in those acts. 🙂[/QUOTE]


So Riley chose female vamps, he could have chosen male vamps, cross dressing vamps, or the master. Doesn't affect the fact that repeatedly in the Buffyverse letting a vamp bite you by choice has sexual connotations.

An ugly prostitute doesn't make the act less sexual or mean it's not a breach of the relationship.

 

[Wildfly]

The very notion of vampires offering suck jobs for money and being tolerated the Council and previous Slayers is preposterous.

The council tolerates a lot of stuff, and while a cheap brothel probably doesn't have W&H's backing i don't think one slayer can fight and put an end all the shady vamp economics. The council seem to be focused on information gathering and training watchers & potentials rather than actually fighting evil anyway.
(Remember, Wesley had even less experience than Lieutenant Gorman in the Aliens).

That brothel is a small part of the underworld, and after Buffy's visit they simply relocated.
I can see them addict people and then sell their blood in demon bars.
Always wondered if Angel drank only animal blood or sometimes brought human?

 

[Icarium]

So Riley chose female vamps, he could have chosen male vamps, cross dressing vamps, or the master. Doesn't affect the fact that repeatedly in the Buffyverse letting a vamp bite you by choice has sexual connotations.

Was there anything sexual about Ford's deal with Spike in Lie to Me? There is tons of sex metaphors, sure, but in-universe characters don't jump to the conclusion vampire bite = sexual for sure.

An ugly prostitute doesn't make the act less sexual or mean it's not a breach of the relationship.

True... but a prostitute you don't actually have any kind of sex with does make the act not sexual except in a metaphorical sense, IMO. I mentioned the Master not because I think sex with ugly people is not cheating somehow but to show that nobody ever thought there was anything sexual in his bite, be it metaphorical or literal.

The council tolerates a lot of stuff, and while a cheap brothel probably doesn't have W&H's backing i don't think one slayer can fight and put an end all the shady vamp economics.

The Slayer can't kill all vamps either, so she shouldn't kill any then? Let me put it this way - there is no reason whatsoever for the Council, the Slayer or whoever to assume the vampire "prostitutes" do not also kill people, be it some of their clients or others, so sparing them on the basis that they are harmless is just asking for trouble. Plus, the very idea that vampires can control themselves to such an extent they decide to regularly spare the meals on wheels, I mean humans, who come to them on their own sort of makes a mockery of the whole tragic aspect of vampirism, IMO. So say Angel loses his soul and immediately jumps to kill someone, run of the mill vampires just won't stop killing on a regular basis even in a town where there is a Slayer but random vamp prostitute can control her desire to kill with no problem? No wonder the idea was dropped like a hot potato once it played its role to drive Riley away.

 

[Wildfly]

The Slayer can't kill all vamps either, so she shouldn't kill any then? Let me put it this way - there is no reason whatsoever for the Council, the Slayer or whoever to assume the vampire "prostitutes" do not also kill people, be it some of their clients or others, so sparing them on the basis that they are harmless is just asking for trouble. Plus, the very idea that vampires can control themselves to such an extent they decide to regularly spare the meals on wheels, I mean humans, who come to them on their own sort of makes a mockery of the whole tragic aspect of vampirism, IMO. So say Angel loses his soul and immediately jumps to kill someone, run of the mill vampires just won't stop killing on a regular basis even in a town where there is a Slayer but random vamp prostitute can control her desire to kill with no problem? No wonder the idea was dropped like a hot potato once it played its role to drive Riley away.

Sure, she'd probably trashed and burned the place staking all the vamps if she'd encountered it earlier, or if, say, a human was killed and it had lead her to it. But other than that, Buffy is just 'she who hangs out in cemeteries a lot'. It's not as if she keeps a large informant network and organizes raids. That place kept a low profile same as many vamps and demons in SunnyD. Also i am sure there is plenty illegal activities in the demon bars she visits to gather info.
Same with Angel - i am sure many places like that gladiator ring existed in LA or guys like that necromancer in AtS 5.

They can save lives and make it more safe for the innocent but they cant eliminate crime completely. ..

 

[bespangeled]

The council tolerates a lot of stuff, and while a cheap brothel probably doesn't have W&H's backing i don't think one slayer can fight and put an end all the shady vamp economics. The council seem to be focused on information gathering and training watchers & potentials rather than actually fighting evil anyway.
(Remember, Wesley had even less experience than Lieutenant Gorman in the Aliens).

That brothel is a small part of the underworld, and after Buffy's visit they simply relocated.
I can see them addict people and then sell their blood in demon bars.
Always wondered if Angel drank only animal blood or sometimes brought human?

In the 1st season there's human blood in his mini-fridge. Not sure when he switched over.

 

[Jules]

In my opinion Anya was inconsistent.

As a demon she had the personality to read people and get them to wish for awful things but then she turned into this human that didn't have a clue how to act around people or what was appropriate to say and what wasn't.

 

[Mr Trick]

In my opinion Anya was inconsistent.

As a demon she had the personality to read people and get them to wish for awful things but then she turned into this human that didn't have a clue how to act around people or what was appropriate to say and what wasn't.

But that's because knowing how to act as a human is very different to reading someone's thoughts and acting as a demon. For example, if I liked a girl, and could read her and know that she didn't like me, that still doesn't stop me from making an arse out of myself in front of her (and yes I am talking from personal experience😉) because sometimes human emotions take over. That Anya had spent so long as a demon and suddenly had to adapt to human ways, and struggled makes sense to me. I think it was partly her being stubborn too.

 

[bespangeled]

But that's because knowing how to act as a human is very different to reading someone's thoughts and acting as a demon. For example, if I liked a girl, and could read her and know that she didn't like me, that still doesn't stop me from making an arse out of myself in front of her (and yes I am talking from personal experience😉) because sometimes human emotions take over. That Anya had spent so long as a demon and suddenly had to adapt to human ways, and struggled makes sense to me. I think it was partly her being stubborn too.

Anya read thoughts?

 

[Wildfly]

I think @mr trick is right.

D'hoffryn did and Halfrek too. (Not thoughts, but emotions.)
So why not Anya?

 

[Athena]

A couple of things irked me....

• Xander summoning Sweet in OMWF. Best episode of the show by far, but Xander summoning a singing, dancing demon for lols is just so out of character, especially as he should know better after 6 years of demon battling with Buffy
• Willow & Xander cheating on Oz & Cordelia. Ok, so Willow always had a crush on Xander from like five years old, that's cute, but she is so happy with Oz and he is so happy with Cordelia and I think them just all of a sudden lusting after each other was inconsistent with what we knew of them up until that point.
• All of Buffy's friends turning on her and chucking her out of her own house in Empty Places. If they aren't confident in Buffy's leadership by that point, they should have left, not the other way round.

There was something else, but I've forgotten what it was....

 

[Skanky Vamp]

• Willow & Xander cheating on Oz & Cordelia. Ok, so Willow always had a crush on Xander from like five years old, that's cute, but she is so happy with Oz and he is so happy with Cordelia and I think them just all of a sudden lusting after each other was inconsistent with what we knew of them up until that point.

The Willow bit makes sense, but not the Xander. At least not to me, as Xander never had any interest in Willow before and he was already dating above his paygrade. Whereas, sure Willow was happy with Oz but she coveted Xander for years.

• There was something else, but I've forgotten what it was....

Could it have been in reference to Tabula Rasa or Ben being Glory?

 

[thetopher]

All of Buffy's friends turning on her and chucking her out of her own house in Empty Places. If they aren't confident in Buffy's leadership by that point, they should have left, not the other way round.

This would've been some-what impractical given that Xander had just gotten back from the hospital and was somewhat medicated.
Would Buffy had thrown him out of her house even though he was badly injured? Maybe, little about Buffy's terrible behaviour during this time would've surprised me.

For accuracy's sake, Buffy stormed out of her own house after Dawn called her on her 'my way or I go' ultimatum.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

For accuracy's sake, Buffy stormed out of her own house after Dawn called her on her 'my way or I go' ultimatum.

Yes, it's amazes me how people mistake Buffy's ultimatum 'you do it my way or I leave' as they are kicking her out. Follow me blindly or I have no use for you.

 

[thetopher]

Yes, it's amazes me how people mistake Buffy's ultimatum 'you do it my way or I leave' as they are kicking her out. Follow me blindly or I have no use for you.

I think the other way might've worked as well though- Buffy kicking everyone else out. Y'know they could've shown everyone standing up, giving Buffy a look of utter disappointment/disgust at her increased pettiness, and then- one by one- left through the front door, leaving standing there all alone.
It still would've been a powerful image and people wouldn't be able to play the victim card so often.

 

[Athena]

Hmmm clearly I need to re-watch Empty Places then! I always took it as them kicking her out....

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I think the other way might've worked as well though- Buffy kicking everyone else out. Y'know they could've shown everyone standing up, giving Buffy a look of utter disappointment/disgust at her increased pettiness, and then- one by one- left through the front door, leaving standing there all alone.
It still would've been a powerful image and people wouldn't be able to play the victim card so often.

Or her kicking them out and they stand their in their solidarity with a 'pfft really?' look upon their face and she if forced to leave, utterly dejected and alone.. unable to command even her scooby gang; which would make the Spike speech more important. Her acting like a stroppy child isn't really doing anything to convince her audience she is right.

 

[Wildfly]

I wish instead of being kicked out she'd really stormed off or have taken a break in the middle of the apocalypse as the group's official version said...
I bet both Buffy and SMG had a lot of unused vacation days accumulated.

Let her group to be independent and really try to solve a problem instead of digging her out of her grave/calling her back. Most of the time they hide behind her. They talked big, so maybe Buffy should have stopped being their kindegarden teacher and let them prove they could stand on their own legs.