Character Inconsistency

[Samuel Reyes]

There is no inconsistency; now, if Spike was strong enough to fight the First's influence earlier and in the end got to be a hero, and people don't like it... well, I, for one, don't see any inconsistency.

See - one of the vellavu's Three Laws of Buffy Discussion is being applied here: Spike ended up being cited; and as I suggested, a fourth should be included: Spuffy always ends up being attacked or blamed for something.

Don't get me wrong, I'm A-OK with Spuffy, but I hate it when other characters begin behaving inconsistently just so a romance can take place. And I'm not saying Spike didn't deserve to be a hero. I'm saying the Scoobies kicked Buffy out so that Spike could get her back on track. Seven years of loyalty tossed out the window for an episode of Spuffy.

 

[Wildfly]

Ex: Sean Maher and James Marsters have said that if they don't agree with what the director, writer, or anyone else who is asking something of them says, they won't listen. While I don't like the Walking Dead, the writers consult the actors if what they write makes sense for their characters. This should have been implemented years ago in the Buffy series, and others still.

I agree. Just recently watched the unaired pilot of Buffy with the wrong Willow and without Alyson Hannigan the whole thing feels completely different. She shaped Will's character so well, so it's only logical to ask the opinion of actors like her.
 

Don't get me wrong, I'm A-OK with Spuffy, but I hate it when other characters begin behaving inconsistently just so a romance can take place. And I'm not saying Spike didn't deserve to be a hero. I'm saying the Scoobies kicked Buffy out so that Spike could get her back on track. Seven years of loyalty tossed out the window for an episode of Spuffy.

That was a painful episode to watch. They explored Buffy the lone hero theme some in the Wish, where SMG behaves like Kendra (which was a bit off key, but it worked for me as Buffy without friends and family) but i appreciate the effort of the writers to try to show Buffy isolated from her friends because they disapproved her way and decisions.

I think the idea was great even without the Spuffy angle (and i am not saying that in a desperate effort not to drag this thread into another Spuffy battle -it'd be vain effort, as there are certain laws in the universe that govern our lives 🙂 )

But as we know, Joss likes his characters to suffer and deposed Buffy abandoned by everyone, even her friends was a great scene, though not executed too well.

It was perfectly believable that the scared potentials would turn on her, the Buffy - Giles conflict also worked for me as did the general feeling of hopelessnes and the desire to blame Buffy for everything, but Willow, Xander and Dawn conflict should have used a bit more buildup to make it work. They never argue with Buffy about her decisions, dont complain, they say they believe in her and follow her, then, when she loses a battle they suddenly had enough with her and her strategy and kick her out as someone unfit being their leader. Then chose Faith.

In Living Conditions when they distrust Buffy and netralize her it was more believable, also in Dead Man's Party when they angry at Buffy for having a breakdown and leaving them.
Here they show us a general sentiment of disappointment and distrust with Buffy as general combined with despair. It'd be more convincing if they'd shown us a bit more Buffy-Xander/Willow conflict before. ..

 

[Mr Trick]

Empty Places is probably the biggest one in the series. For Dawn to throw Buffy out of the house and the rest of the gang to let her... (rages uncontrollably). It's especially annoying when you realize that it was partially done just to lead to a Spuffy moment. As a matter of fact, most of Season 7 is written inconsistently to showcase Spuffy moments.

Think you're missing the point of that scene though. Dawn kicking Buffy out of the house is symbolic. Buffy was made to feel unwelcome by just about everyone, so she possibley would have left anyway, or someone else might have got round to telling her to leave. But as the only other member of the Summers family (although unofficial maybe) left in the house it became a statement than it was Dawn who asked Buffy to leave and also shows character growth on her part.

Frankly, the entire Cordy/Connor fiasco really turned me away from the show for awhile. I was disgusted...not only because I despised Connor, but also because the scene where they're having sex just felt like...incest or something. And it certainly didn't help that Vincent Kartheiser looked about 16-17.

During the sex scene, my inner teenager was shrieking, "Ew! Ew! Ew!" It was just so wrong, on so many levels.

One of the rare times when watching one of these shows when I felt

I agree. Just recently watched the unaired pilot of Buffy with the wrong Willow and without Alyson Hannigan the whole thing feels completely different. She shaped Will's character so well, so it's only logical to ask the opinion of actors like her.
 

That was a painful episode to watch. They explored Buffy the lone hero theme some in the Wish, where SMG behaves like Kendra (which was a bit off key, but it worked for me as Buffy without friends and family) but i appreciate the effort of the writers to try to show Buffy isolated from her friends because they disapproved her way and decisions.

I think the idea was great even without the Spuffy angle (and i am not saying that in a desperate effort not to drag this thread into another Spuffy battle -it'd be vain effort, as there are certain laws in the universe that govern our lives 🙂 )

But as we know, Joss likes his characters to suffer and deposed Buffy abandoned by everyone, even her friends was a great scene, though not executed too well.

It was perfectly believable that the scared potentials would turn on her, the Buffy - Giles conflict also worked for me as did the general feeling of hopelessnes and the desire to blame Buffy for everything, but Willow, Xander and Dawn conflict should have used a bit more buildup to make it work. They never argue with Buffy about her decisions, dont complain, they say they believe in her and follow her, then, when she loses a battle they suddenly had enough with her and her strategy and kick her out as someone unfit being their leader. Then chose Faith.

In Living Conditions when they distrust Buffy and netralize her it was more believable, also in Dead Man's Party when they angry at Buffy for having a breakdown and leaving them.
Here they show us a general sentiment of disappointment and distrust with Buffy as general combined with despair. It'd be more convincing if they'd shown us a bit more Buffy-Xander/Willow conflict before. ..

I think you are talking about two different things though. An actor can still make a character their own without having control over the script. Normally this happens by how they deliever the lines, or their facial expressions, subtle movements etc... I think as a rule the writers have to have control over a character otherwise you would just get too many different voices, then you have the factor of the actors ego maybe abusing this (not saying AH would do this, but it could happen with others). It would be a bit like if in football a manager was told what tactics to use by a player. The odd imput is fine, but not much more than that.

 

[vellavu]

What whole Cordy fiasco are you referring to?

 

[Wildfly]

I think you are talking about two different things though. An actor can still make a character their own without having control over the script. Normally this happens by how they deliever the lines, or their facial expressions, subtle movements etc... I think as a rule the writers have to have control over a character otherwise you would just get too many different voices, then you have the factor of the actors ego maybe abusing this (not saying AH would do this, but it could happen with others). It would be a bit like if in football a manager was told what tactics to use by a player. The odd imput is fine, but not much more than that.

Sure, but a good actor's interpretation can shape the director's decisions and direction 🙂
We saw it with JM and with AH, when Joss wrote and directed Doppelgangland cos he was so charmed by vamp Willow in the Wish.
Not saying the actor now has to make the decisions, write and direct the episode, but if we have a seasoned one asking for his/her input can be beneficial. They live these characters and if they say some line or scene
doesn't click with them and throws them off character then maybe their opinions could be considered.

 

[Mr Trick]

Sure, but a good actor's interpretation can shape the director's decisions and direction 🙂
We saw it with JM and with AH, when Joss wrote and directed Doppelgangland cos he was so charmed by vamp Willow in the Wish.
Not saying the actor now has to make the decisions, write and direct the episode, but if we have a seasoned one asking for his/her input can be beneficial. They live these characters and if they say some line or scene
doesn't click with them and throws them off character then maybe their opinions could be considered.

But chances are than a writer/director would know the character better if they had consistently worked on the show. Yeah a little bit of imput sure, like random ideas, that can work. Guess what I'm saying is that you seem to be talking about characters being poorly written or feeling uncharactistic at times, like how they treated Buffy in DMP but then that's just down to that story being poorly writen, I'm not sure it would be made any better by having the actors get involved. Sometimes you just have to put it down to a bad writing job.

 

[Wildfly]

But chances are than a writer/director would know the character better if they had consistently worked on the show.
Guess what I'm saying is that you seem to be talking about characters being poorly written or feeling uncharactistic at times, like how they treated Buffy in DMP but then that's just down to that story being poorly writen, I'm not sure it would be made any better by having the actors get involved.

There are some inconsistent characters that were bent and ***'d for the sake of the plot, Riley being the best example. But yes, the actor's input wouldn't have helped much in this case. Not as if he gave an earthshaking performance and had a good grasp what Riley should be. It was solid acting, but nothing to write home about.

Yeah a little bit of imput sure, like random ideas, that can work.

Sure, nothing radical, not speaking about altering the whole concept or (sub)plot, but yes. the more freedom and input a talented actor is allowed, the better, instead of following a rigid script. Bad parts of the scripts can be rewritten / changed through the performance if a line or scene doesn't ring well. It can lead to really great ideas, but sure it has to be balanced. No one wants an actor with a prima-donna behaviour who demands more screentime or refuses to die or somesuch.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Hee. 'Cordy Fiasco' sounds like a like the name of a character. 🙂

It would make a great stripper name. 😉

 

[sosa lola]

Empty Places is probably the biggest one in the series. For Dawn to throw Buffy out of the house and the rest of the gang to let her... (rages uncontrollably). It's especially annoying when you realize that it was partially done just to lead to a Spuffy moment. As a matter of fact, most of Season 7 is written inconsistently to showcase Spuffy moments.

I love Spuffy. I read and have written Spuffy fanfic. But I have to agree with you on this. Empty Places/Touched always felt like a badly written Spuffy fanfic with unconvincing character bashing. It just doesn't make sense for Xander, Willow and Dawn to side with Faith over Buffy. I'm sorry, but that's OOC no matter what anyone says.

 

[bespangeled]

While different writers may have different concepts for the same character, it should be finalized by the creator to keep consistency. For the sake of the viewers, if no one else. Though, some writers are easy to work with for some actors can point out that certain things don't make sense. Ex: Sean Maher and James Marsters have said that if they don't agree with what the director, writer, or anyone else who is asking something of them says, they won't listen. While I don't like the Walking Dead, the writers consult the actors if what they write makes sense for their characters. This should have been implemented years ago in the Buffy series, and others still.

Actually Jss was willing to do that with some actors - we all know that Denisoff had the choice of either fighting bravely or falling apart in his final BTVS episode and he chose to get knocked out. Not sure who all else got choices but it seems they were all small choices.

It was perfectly believable that the scared potentials would turn on her, the Buffy - Giles conflict also worked for me as did the general feeling of hopelessnes and the desire to blame Buffy for everything, but Willow, Xander and Dawn conflict should have used a bit more buildup to make it work. They never argue with Buffy about her decisions, dont complain, they say they believe in her and follow her, then, when she loses a battle they suddenly had enough with her and her strategy and kick her out as someone unfit being their leader. Then chose Faith.

Exactly - and I can appreciate when Buffy tells everyone that she is just doing what she has already done. It's the blaming Buffy for everything that bugs me. Hell, there wasn't that much blame when Angel turned to Angelus, and when Willow was injured.

Here they show us a general sentiment of disappointment and distrust with Buffy as general combined with despair. It'd be more convincing if they'd shown us a bit more Buffy-Xander/Willow conflict before. ..

Particularly when telling the potentials how great Buffy was just an episode or so before. They all knew how to get through to Buffy in this situation but they didn't even try to.

But as the only other member of the Summers family (although unofficial maybe) left in the house it became a statement than it was Dawn who asked Buffy to leave and also shows character growth on her part.

I gotta say that kicking her sister out rang so false to me. I have never, in any way shape or form, seen and indication that Dawn would feel that way, let alone that she cared so much more what others said.

I love Spuffy. I read and have written Spuffy fanfic. But I have to agree with you on this. Empty Places/Touched always felt like a badly written Spuffy fanfic with unconvincing character bashing. It just doesn't make sense for Xander, Willow and Dawn to side with Faith over Buffy. I'm sorry, but that's OOC no matter what anyone says.

Yes and yes - I don't ship Suffy, but I don't have any real problems with it either. It's a relationship with depth and destruction, and it suits what they were going through. I like some of Spike's lines, but I kinda cringe at the kitchen scene.

Empty Places is probably the biggest one in the series. For Dawn to throw Buffy out of the house and the rest of the gang to let her... (rages uncontrollably). It's especially annoying when you realize that it was partially done just to lead to a Spuffy moment. As a matter of fact, most of Season 7 is written inconsistently to showcase Spuffy moments.

No, had the characters not changed, not kicked her out, then what would be the point of the events leading up to that episode. There would have been nothing more than a big fizzle. The scoobies needed to kick her out for dramatic reasons that had nothing to do with Spuffy. This also verifies the whole 'the only one watching my back' belief. Hard to prove that you havve her back while kicking her out of her own house.

Other OOC -Angel coming to SD in Pangs and not letting Buffy know he was there because Buffy would lose all ability to defend herself and turn into a giggling school girl.

Buffy's ridiculous speech in the convenient scary underground death space with Dawn, ant the end of season 6. That was so obviously a need to give her some sort of adventure while the real action took place elsewhere.

 

[sosa lola]

Yes and yes - I don't ship Suffy, but I don't have any real problems with it either. It's a relationship with depth and destruction, and it suits what they were going through. I like some of Spike's lines, but I kinda cringe at the kitchen scene.

No, had the characters not changed, not kicked her out, then what would be the point of the events leading up to that episode. There would have been nothing more than a big fizzle. The scoobies needed to kick her out for dramatic reasons that had nothing to do with Spuffy. This also verifies the whole 'the only one watching my back' belief. Hard to prove that you havve her back while kicking her out of her own house.

I get extremely angry and emotionally irrational when discussing that Empty Places scene and the kitchen scene with Spike. I loathe character-bashing with a firing passion, but with fanfic it's easy to ignore those fics, however, it's so much harder when it's the canon show itself. Seven years of backing Buffy up tossed into the trashcan by one big character assassination. That's a serious case of woobifying the main character. It's crappy, crappy writing when you sacrifice every single character - except the love interest of course, you need someone to put those ungrateful trainers in their places - Spike even uses those words to describe them, urgh *flashback to all the bad Spander fics with wooby Xander and meanie Scoobies and loyal heroic Spike* - just to show us how kickass and awesome and poor misunderstood Buffy is. Give me a break.

Oh, and of course, she turns out to be right. Was this plotline written by a 13 year old?

 

[Wildfly]

I get extremely angry and emotionally irrational when discussing that Empty Places scene and the kitchen scene with Spike. I loathe character-bashing with a firing passion, but with fanfic it's easy to ignore those fics, however, it's so much harder when it's the canon show itself. Seven years of backing Buffy up tossed into the trashcan by one big character assassination. That's a serious case of woobifying the main character. It's crappy, crappy writing when you sacrifice every single character - except the love interest of course, you need someone to put those ungrateful trainers in their places - Spike even uses those words to describe them, urgh *flashback to all the bad Spander fics with wooby Xander and meanie Scoobies and loyal heroic Spike* - just to show us how kickass and awesome and poor misunderstood Buffy is. Give me a break.

Oh, and of course, she turns out to be right. Was this plotline written by a 13 year old?

Let's forget Spuffy for a minute.
If, say, 'Buffy the leader deposed and kicked out by her friends' had a better buildup where it'd be more easy to connect the dots about the rift between her and her friends, would you still be furious that the story took a different direction from what you wanted, complaining that Joss and the writers again showed the middle finger to the fans?

As in - the scoobies and Giles should always support each other and there is no way they they'd turn against Buffy as their leader?

 

[sosa lola]

Let's forget Spuffy for a minute.
If, say, 'Buffy the leader deposed and kicked out by her friends' had a better buildup where it'd be more easy to connect the dots about the rift between her and her friends, would you still be furious that the story took a different direction from what you wanted, complaining that Joss and the writers again showed the middle finger to the fans?

As in - the scoobies and Giles should always support each other and there is no way they they'd turn against Buffy as their leader?

The Scoobies having problems with Buffy's leadership and voicing their opinions? Sure.

The Scoobies choosing Faith over Buffy? Throwing Buffy out of her own house? Waiting for Faith to order them to check up on Buffy and make sure she's okay? Seriously? Character assassination down to a T. OOC writing buildup or no buildup. Buffy tried to kill her friends in Normal Again and they still forgave her. One badly constructed plan causing two slayers to die and Xander to lose his eye won't make them kick her out of her own house. Please.

 

[Mr Trick]

The Scoobies having problems with Buffy's leadership and voicing their opinions? Sure.

The Scoobies choosing Faith over Buffy? Throwing Buffy out of her own house? Waiting for Faith to order them to check up on Buffy and make sure she's okay? Seriously? Character assassination down to a T. OOC writing buildup or no buildup. Buffy tried to kill her friends in Normal Again and they still forgave her. One badly constructed plan causing two slayers to die and Xander to lose his eye won't make them kick her out of her own house. Please.

That's not a proper comparasion though is it. In Normal Again she wasn't in the correct frame of mind. I guess they were worried in Empty Places that another bad plan could cost them dearly.

 

[sosa lola]

In Normal Again she wasn't in the correct frame of mind.

Neither is she now. They know she doesn't sleep well if at all, you see Xander episodes before trying to get her to sleep for a few hours. She can't think straight. Still not a good enough reason characterization wise to kick her out and elect Faith as the leader. I just don't see the Scoobies doing it. Picking Faith over Buffy? Not a chance. Even Dawn whom we never saw interact with her didn't seem to like her much. And what's worse, they don't even try to find her and make sure she's safe. Until Prince Charming AKA Spike guilts them into doing it. Bad, bad writing.

 

[Mr Trick]

Did they elect Faith the leader though? Wasn't it more Faith electing herself, and I guess they went with it because she was a Slayer and seemed the natural replacement. Also, we seem to be remembering the scene differently, because yes Dawn might have asked Buffy to leave, but she was still welcome in the house as far as the other Scoobies were concerned. It was Buffy's choice to leave too.

 

[Wildfly]

The Scoobies having problems with Buffy's leadership and voicing their opinions? Sure.

The Scoobies choosing Faith over Buffy? Throwing Buffy out of her own house? Waiting for Faith to order them to check up on Buffy and make sure she's okay? Seriously? Character assassination down to a T. OOC writing buildup or no buildup. Buffy tried to kill her friends in Normal Again and they still forgave her. One badly constructed plan causing two slayers to die and Xander to lose his eye won't make them kick her out of her own house. Please.

I agree about the bad writing, some of those arguments mentioned I've also written in this thread 🙂

But the plot of 'leader is betrayed and voted down by his friends and by the public that praised him before' is valid, it's very much present in history and in fiction, when old friends drift apart and betrayal rears it's ugly head. For example exile of Themistocles who was a brilliant strategist and saved the asses of the Athenians, or in the Goblet of Fire and other books where Rowling describes how Harry the 'chosen one' is isolated and shunned by his fellow students and his best friend.

It's good drama and i get it why they would explore it, Buffy's character is perfect for it. They also did something similar in AtS 5 Power Play, but it was executed much better.

I get it that it may anger the fans who don't like the ugly side of their characters shown and wish to see episodes with the good characters always being right and making rational decisions, unthwarted by evil, but i personally wouldn't have omitted the split, except liked to see it with a bit better writing.

 

[Mr Trick]

I agree about the bad writing, some of those those arguments mentioned I've also written in this thread 🙂

But the plot of 'leader is betrayed and voted down by his friends and by the public that praised him before' is valid, it's very much present in history and in fiction, when old friends drift apart and betrayal rears it's ugly head. For example exile of Themistocles who was a brilliant strategist and saved the asses of the Athenians, or in the Goblet of Fire and other books where Rowling describes how Harry the 'chosen one' is isolated and shunned by his fellow students and his best friend.

It's good drama and i get it why they would explore it, Buffy's character is perfect for it. They also did something similar in AtS 5 Power Play, but it was executed much better.

I get it that it may anger the fans who don't like the ugly side of their characters shown and wish to see episodes with the good always characters always being right and making rational decisions, unthwarted by evil, but i personally wouldn't have omitted the split, except liked to see it with a bit better writing.

This is a more fair assarement for me. It was a bold storyline to explore, and the scene itself is one of my favourite ever on the show.

 

[Bluebird]

I think the only scene that made me question the writing decisions was Buffy being kicked out her house. It was a controversial talking point between me and my partner when he watched it for the first time. It was the only thing he had a WTF moment over the character's actions, and got angry at them for it. Which seems like a natural reaction a lot of people have, as I think the scene was necessary for a the last plot point they wanted to make. I just don't think it was necessary for the characters. Trying to generate a last moment of excitement and make a point about Buffy being the leader they need, before the big finale, was a higher priority for the writers than character consistency. It suffered for it but didn't ruin the ending.

 

[cryptwarmer]

So you think Cordy and Oz overreacted about a trivial issue of Xander and Willow smooching and it wasn't really a betrayal of their trust and cheating?

No, they acted appropriately for their age and experience. But with the experience and hopefully, maturity of adulthood, most realize that two teenagers making out does not equate getting suck jobs from VAMPIRES as an adult.

Riley was a TA. that means grad student, so probably at least 23 yrs old as opposed to 17.