Character Inconsistency

[Wildfly]

I meant that Giles was old and he should know better...

And Buffy had a point - Faith did earn some points with the Potentials by having been cool with them.

Sure, Faith was cool and Buffy was a like a nagging teacher with those boring speeches and inconvenient truths.

and the real question was as Faith posed it:

Faith - But the real question is...can you follow?

Could she have? Could she have bowed to public opinion and followed Faith, led together the girls into a trap? That'd show that she is humble. They were really angry at her, trying to prove that being the slayer doesn't make her special, she doesn't get to decide.
I don't think Buffy was capable of doing that. She'd do her best to talk them out of silly tactical decisions. That's why they asked Buffy to leave. They wanted to be independent, to decide for themselves and not obey Buffy's 'dictatorsip'.

But Buffy is incapable to do something she doesn't believe in, something that is wrong. I am sure if Giles or Faith a better leader, Buffy would have followed them. But she knew their weaknesses and limitations. She really was the best for the job, defeating so many evil bosses all those years. Yes, she got help, but the responsibility of the leadership was always hers.

 

[bespangeled]

Yes, it's amazes me how people mistake Buffy's ultimatum 'you do it my way or I leave' as they are kicking her out. Follow me blindly or I have no use for you.

There wasn't any my way - just our next goal. In fact, Buffy said that see would work out the details with the others, but that this was where they needed to hit next.

It's the emotive language I don't get. the 'betrayal', 'kicked out of her house', all totally inaccurate.

As opposed to having a hissy fit, storming off and sulking. 🙄

But the Scoobies failed to mention Faith's track record, they apparently didn't tell the girls that, while Buffy had been committed to the mission for years, Faith allied herself with villains and killed people, and had no experience in leadership. And that got girls killed.

Thinking of that, it was almost criminal what the Scoobies did (mainly Giles) - leading a bunch of inexperienced Potentials believe that having Faith would be the same as having Buffy.

I agree here - Faith was a slayer for a short time in Boston - was on the run - was a slayer for a short time in Sunnydale - went rogue and started killing people - went to jail. I love Faith - but she has nowhere near the experience as a slayer that Buffy has. Maybe a full year in total - less time then she spent killing and in prison overall. One on one - watching her against Angelus - fantastic. But that is a way different job than leading. In fact, it was Wesley leading Faith - he planned and she fought.

Buffy knew Sunnydale, she knew the First, she was the one who took all the punches and got all the info she could before getting knocked out. She took down the Turok-han to give the potentials faith in their abilities. She survived Caleb, and figured out that he was holding something critically important. Faith had arrived a few days earlier, had never met Caleb, and had no real experience as the leader of an army.

But the girls knew she was the cool slayer - the one Giles had sent them off to the Bronze with.
Popularity contest?

I would say four sides, as Rona (i think thats who said it) "it's not about you and spike, it's about you"
I would say the sides were Buffy, Spike, Scoobies and the truth. It's funny because Faith said "I didn't come here to be your lapdog" and that is exactly what Spike was.. so Buffy needed a lapdog all along now that her previous ones jumped off her lap.

Yeah - he questioned, then followed her with absolute faith, hit the targets that she pointed at, believed in her completely. Kinda like Faith following Angel but with a lot more history. He wasn't going to let anything happen to her because she was the only person he had ever believed in, the only one who never gave up on him.

"I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster"
"then you cant stay here"

And then Faith led them into some disaster. Ironic that.🙁

They were NOT united against Buffy. They were united against her plan. And they had every right to be considering what had just happened.

What plan? There was no plan - they booted her out for having decided on the next important goal, even after she said she would be open to talking strategy and creating a plan.

Let her group to be independent and really try to solve a problem instead of digging her out of her grave/calling her back. Most of the time they hide behind her. They talked big, so maybe Buffy should have stopped being their kindegarden teacher and let them prove they could stand on their own legs.

That actually would have been nice. It's Buffy who has paid almost all the cost - physically, emotionally, mentally. I'd love to see any of them take over.

Faith - But the real question is...can you follow?

Could she have? Could she have bowed to public opinion and followed Faith, led together the girls into a trap? That'd show that she is humble. They were really angry at her, trying to prove that being the slayer doesn't make her special, she doesn't get to decide.

That was so bizarre - Anya chose to be a demon. Buffy didn't chose to be a slayer, and it ruined her life in so many ways. But she was the slayer - and up to that moment she was acknowledged as the leader. This wasn't about a plan - Anya didn't attack her plan. There was no plan to attack. This was about a bunch of scared kids believing that if they sent Buffy away hen the war would just be over and there would be nothing more to be scared about.

Group dynamics are so different from one on one.

 

[Monkey Pants]

There are tons of little character inconsistencies which were really annoying, but those were mostly already mentioned. What bothers me more is that a lot of the characters seemed like entirely different people in the later seasons, especially Willow and Giles. I know a lot of people like the changes and development, but it mostly makes me sad.

 

[thetopher]

As opposed to having a hissy fit, storming off and sulking.

Yeah, tell us again how Giles the 'puppet-master' just wanted another slayer to 'control'.
Not emotive at all. 😉

 

[Skanky Vamp]

What plan? There was no plan

You remember incorrectly. She said they were going to attack the vineyard again and "this is the plan" she was open to "strategy" but "I'm in charge" and "this is the plan" despite no one else wanting to go anywhere near the vineyard based solely on her hunch. Whether they liked it or not, it was "the plan"

 

[thetopher]

She said they were going to attack the vineyard again and "this is the plan" she was open to "strategy" but "I'm in charge" and "this is the plan" despite no one else wanting to go anywhere near the vineyard based solely on her hunch. Whether they liked it or not, it was "the plan"

But apparently we're not allowed to use the words Buffy actually says to argue about what she 'meant'.
No, I don't get it either.

 

[Mr Trick]

There are tons of little character inconsistencies which were really annoying, but those were mostly already mentioned. What bothers me more is that a lot of the characters seemed like entirely different people in the later seasons, especially Willow and Giles. I know a lot of people like the changes and development, but it mostly makes me sad.

You can't have characters with little or no deveolpment for seven seasons. Since the theme of the show is growing up then I think the change in many of the characters make sense.

 

[Monkey Pants]

You can't have characters with little or no deveolpment for seven seasons. Since the theme of the show is growing up then I think the change in many of the characters make sense.

I agree, and I certainly wouldn't want little or no development! The character development is probably my favorite part of Buffy. And I think that their development through Season 5 made sense, and was very enjoyable and interesting. Season 6 and 7 Willow first was a raging, abusive bitch and then a sad, morose character, while Giles was pretty cold and distant. And it can be argued that these changes made sense, and I certainly always found them interesting to watch, but I would have preferred it if I liked the people they were at the end a little more. I mean, I love the later seasons, and I'll always love the characters and their journeys (Willow's my favorite so obviously I didn't take it too hard) but whenever I watch the early seasons I feel like ahh...I'm back with the characters I love🙄😛.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

whenever I watch the early seasons I feel like ahh...I'm back with the characters I love🙄😛.

That's because then they were noble and heroic. All of them. Hell, even Cordy was. They were not the petty, sullen, self-absorbed, miserable characters they turned into.

 

[Mr Trick]

That's because then they were noble and heroic. All of them. Hell, even Cordy was. They were not the petty, sullen, self-absorbed, miserable characters they turned into.

Actually I think Xander is more petty in early seasons, same with Cordy, and possibly Buffy too. The problems just change in later seasons.

 

[sosa lola]

I guess what I enjoy about the characters in the early seasons is the spark and freshness and happiness they seemed to have lost in the later seasons. I loved Xander's blind bravery in the early seasons, I loved how he saw himself as one of the important guys, I loved how he pushed himself to be better. By S7, he'd lost all that spark he used to have, he'd accepted that he's "less" and became too passive and rarely voiced his opinion. While it's a good development to accept who you are and be calm and speak less - I enjoy that outgoing boy of the high school years more.

 

[Puffy]

Well, for me the so-called character inconsistency is the ultimate proof that there is only logic consistency in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which other chicken-hearted-TV Shows are lacking.

Because (in the real world) people say the one thing, then do the other. Or they dont learn, or they do and then they just forget it, or randomly imitating other people with wavering quality, or they just **** up or having one bright moment (mabye both at the same time😉 )...and so on. Also they are evolving or they dont. One step foreward, two backward. Its only human. 🙂

 

[bespangeled]

You remember incorrectly. She said they were going to attack the vineyard again and "this is the plan" she was open to "strategy" but "I'm in charge" and "this is the plan" despite no one else wanting to go anywhere near the vineyard based solely on her hunch. Whether they liked it or not, it was "the plan"

I made a thread on Empty Places so it wouldn't take over this one - if you're interested.
Empty Places
 

That's because then they were noble and heroic. All of them. Hell, even Cordy was. They were not the petty, sullen, self-absorbed, miserable characters they turned into.

Precisely.
We seem to have people who prefer different sorts of drama with different sorts of characters.
To me, each trait was foreshadowed in the earlier years, and that's why it's so effective in the later years.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

We seem to have people who prefer different sorts of drama with different sorts of characters.
To me, each trait was foreshadowed in the earlier years, and that's why it's so effective in the later years.

The issue I have with the later seasons is nothing to do with the characters or the 'drama' of it. It's just the poor writing and the ever-shifting mythology.

 

[bespangeled]

Well, for me the so-called character inconsistency is the ultimate proof that there is only logic consistency in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which other chicken-hearted-TV Shows are lacking.

Because (in the real world) people say the one thing, then do the other. Or they dont learn, or they do and then they just forget it, or randomly imitating other people with wavering quality, or they just **** up or having one bright moment (mabye both at the same time😉 )...and so on. Also they are evolving or they dont. One step foreward, two backward. Its only human. 🙂

Well said - and a critical point of difference. I like a show about heroes, but I don't live in a world of them. It's like Angel, and grey areas. Early Buffy is a lighter universe - later Buffy struggle with more darkness, more grey, more human emotions gone awry and learning from mistakes. Learning doesn't take you back to where you once were before your mistake - you do change. It's part of the aging process.

 

[Mr Trick]

I guess what I enjoy about the characters in the early seasons is the spark and freshness and happiness they seemed to have lost in the later seasons. I loved Xander's blind bravery in the early seasons, I loved how he saw himself as one of the important guys, I loved how he pushed himself to be better. By S7, he'd lost all that spark he used to have, he'd accepted that he's "less" and became too passive and rarely voiced his opinion. While it's a good development to accept who you are and be calm and speak less - I enjoy that outgoing boy of the high school years more.

Well yeah all this. Its those grey areas and flaws which make the characters in Buffy so rich. I've always stuck up for Xander in most cases for the stick he gets on here for the early seasons. I mean the guy was 16-18 give him a break😉 And he does make up for a lot of those errors with his loyality and bravery. He's a great character even if he's not quite up there with the best.

 

[vellavu]

Xander skipped the attempt-murder investigation and went to the kitchen to steal Jelly in "Earshot", which was after the supposed "character development" of "The Zeppo".

On the other hand, Jane Espenson does this kind of thing a lot in her earlier episodes, so I cut Xander some slack here.

 

[Mr Trick]

Xander skipped the attempt-murder investigation and went to the kitchen to steal Jelly in "Earshot", which was after the supposed "character development" of "The Zeppo".

On the other hand, Jane Espenson does this kind of thing a lot in her earlier episodes, so I cut Xander some slack here.

Besides you know teenage guys can never keep their minds on business😀

 

[Iwearthecheese]

Inconsistencies:

The Scoobies over reaction in 'The Zeppo'- although it was for comic purposes- rang false.Xander was the guy who faced down Angelus, provided the rocker launcher, who had patrolled Sunnydale last summer with only Willow and Oz for company and now suddenly he's a delicate flower in need of need of protecting? Because of one damn fight?

Giles and Faith between S3 'Revelations' and ' Helpless'. He was her Watcher and she was his slayer. He really didn't even attempt to do the basic minimum in his duty to her.
The only way I can explain this is that Giles was much more concerned with Buffy (who he was closer to) and her keeping Angel a secret from him, so he was preoccupied.

Xander in 'OMWF'. Do I believe that he actually summoned Sweet? Not really because its not in hs character. He played with magical forces once and got burned, he wouldn't do it again. That's not Xander's thing. I think in 'Selfless' he's seen doing it in his sleep but its still very weak for what is a throwaway joke.
I still think it was Dawn. 😛


About the end of 'Empty Places' (which seems to be much debated): Either you think that Buffy got kicked out her own house by everybody- which is completely out-of-character for all those people involved.
Or Buffy ran away from a situation she couldn't deal with emotionally, which is completely in-character for her. She does or attempts to do that same thing in 'DMP' and 'Revelations' and too many other situations to count. If she can't cope she walks away in denial. Buffy also isn't good with groups standing up to her or calling her on her BS, she always gets defensive and then runs off.

Also, even if she was kicked and we're meant to feel sorry for her, its kinda undone by the fact she does the exact same thing to a scared guy alone in his house. She even takes his weapon, raids his fridge and sleeps in his bed. Poor, poor Buffy. 🙄

 

[sosa lola]

Inconsistencies:

The Scoobies over reaction in 'The Zeppo'- although it was for comic purposes- rang false.Xander was the guy who faced down Angelus, provided the rocker launcher, who had patrolled Sunnydale last summer with only Willow and Oz for company and now suddenly he's a delicate flower in need of need of protecting? Because of one damn fight?

I agree. With Buffy I headcanon it that she just got to experience what it's like to fight monsters without her superpowers (Helpless) and it really traumatized her, which is why she's overprotective towards Xander. Oz, Giles and Faith didn't really exclude Xander, Giles actually wanted Xander to bring more donuts to which Buffy pointedly argued, "No!" And it's actually Buffy who is so set on it. Now Willow and Angel? Especially Angel, "It's best you stay out of harm's way" just sounded so weird coming from his mouth.