Character who gave it all up for the impure, selfish motive of love

[bespangeled]

The two most "selfish" sacrifices in the series were both made for family I think. One was Buffy sacrificing herself for Dawn. The other was Angel wiping everyone's memory for Connor. But like Lyri said, depends on your idea of selfish, cause both of those decision could also be considered completely selfless.

The funny thing is that they would have been nothing more than a suicide for Buffy, and the actions of a psychopath for Angel.

I suppose we could say Buffy jumped to her death to save the world - not quite as selfish than if she does it to save her little sister.

Angel - that's a hard one. If he did it to save Connor it would be selfish - maybe he just needed a break?

BTW - for those who missed the link back in Unpopular opinions - here is where the thread comes from:

@thetopher: As Spike says almost constantly he got his soul for Buffy, not for himself- that isn't redemption, that's doing it to get back with the girl. If he'd gotten his soul because he felt awfl about his demon-ness then maybe I would see his soul quest as redemptive, but it isn't.

@Mr. Pole: I see what spurred the whole other thread on.. now it makes sense.

Yes, been going on since I got here. Just finally decided it was time to really examine that whole concept. Is doing something good because you love someone really just a selfish thing? How does that idea affect other B-verse characters who make changes because they love someone?

Character who gave it all up for the impure, selfish motive of love

 

[Wildfly]

The more i think about Angel looks like his love at first sight with Buffy was kinda selfish and shallow.
Here was Angel, without a purpose, on a rat diet, and then Whistler comes along, takes him to a little trip showing her a girl to pique his interest in a cause (which was kinda creepy in itself)
and upon seeing Buffy Angel says he'll take the job.
Would be Angel interested in helping if the new slayer was covered in acne with bulging fish eyes and a nasal voice instead a petty blonde with a lolipop?

In the Wish he calls her 'my destiny' and I think that's why he fell for her. She was supposed to give him purpose and looked the role, so pure, naive and pretty...

But then love for your kids, isnt it pure instinct? You also don't really know them when they are babies...

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Would be Angel interested in helping if the new slayer was covered in acne with bulging fish eyes and a nasal voice instead a petty blonde with a lolipop?

Of course not.. plus he was a major creeper for stalking a teenage girl. The only reason he followed her and agreed to help was her (somewhat) resemblance to Darla.

 

[thetopher]

Buffy had nothing to do with this really. Faith is a murderer, but only Buffy really matters enough for redemption? No, the only thing is Buffy is close to Angel. No, Faith gave up her freedom because she loved Angel and it was what she knew he wanted. He was going to ask her to do it after all.

I disagree. Buffy (and Wesley) are the only ones that ever mentioned jail. Angel never did. When Kate Lockley comes on the television and Faith freaks its Angel that comfotrts her, tells her not to panic and says he'll stick by her.
Angel wants Faith to face what she did and work through her guilt much in the same manner as he did.

Faith went to jail for Buffy because Buffy (when she showed up) represented all the pain that Faith had caused. She embodied those consequences of Faith's appalling choices- she tried to help Faith time and again and Faith never let her (because Faith hated herselg and resented Buffy for making her feel that way).
So Faith chooses, independent of Angel to turn herself over to the police, confesses and faces the real consequences of her actions.

 

[bespangeled]

The more i think about Angel looks like his love at first sight with Buffy was kinda selfish and shallow.

Love at firs sight with a teen and an adult skeevy looking man - looks pervy. I am very glad they didn't show that scene until much later in the show.

Of course not.. plus he was a major creeper for stalking a teenage girl. The only reason he followed her and agreed to help was her (somewhat) resemblance to Darla.

I wonder why he did try - other than the shower, hair cut, shave and new wardrobe (and where did all that come from?) hen he starts out interacting with her, I would swear it's Angelus she
s dealing with. But when he starts doing good, it's because he loves Buffy and wants her to love him - selfish bastard.😱

So Faith chooses, independent of Angel to turn herself over to the police, confesses and faces the real consequences of her actions.

I believe Faith loves Angel more than she will ever love anyone - and what they shared over those few days talking about redemption meant everything to her. She knows the journey is a hard one, but she knows that he believes in her and will be there for her. She willingly gives herself up, because that is the first step of her resumption - a goal that Angel and Faith share.

There is so much more to Faith's redemption than a guest appearance by Buffy. You believe that if Buffy hadn't show up an jogged her memory none of the redemption course would have happened - and Faith who was in a police station would have...what? Bolted and ran? Angel, having just that one person who never let her down, her love for Angel made her want to be a better person. And she did want him to love her (nonsexal), believe in her and be proud of her. Which means she was selfish, of course. 😎

 

[Silverspike]

"Is doing something good because you love someone really just a selfish thing?"

No it really isn't imo and I never do understand that view point. I mean people do acts out of love of other people all the time in real life, so whats the flaming problem? When I cared for my parents when they had dementia was that me being selfish? Of course not. And yet it was my love of them that gave me the strength to do so.

 

[thetopher]

I believe Faith loves Angel more than she will ever love anyone

Not in 'Sanctuary'. Faith had been desperate and self-destructive she thought Angel would end it all. There isn't love there, not yet. Love comes later.

You believe that if Buffy hadn't show up an jogged her memory none of the redemption course would have happened - and Faith who was in a police station would have...what?

Watch the episode: Angel is helping Faith deal with all the guilt she's been bottling up since the year before. His solution is that she get through 'the next minute, the next hour', deal with the pain' so she can have a chance of being free.
He never mentions jail once, Buffy mentions it several times in Faith's hearing. Buffy confronts Faith with what she has done and Faith, being a good (lapsed) Catholic, thinks about penance/atonement for her past crimes.

If Buffy hadn't come to Sunnydale? Who knows? Probably Faith would've come to the same conclusion out of nessesity and gone to jail, but the point is that Angel would never have suggested it- so Faith didn't do it for him, she did it for Buffy and all those people she'd wronged.

If Angel wanted Faith to go to the police then why did he give himself up to Kate Lockley and refuse to tell them where Faith was?
Because he wanted to give her that chance, that choice, and Faith made it. For Buffy AND for herself, but not for Angel.

Angel, having just that one person who never let her down, her love for Angel made her want to be a better person.

Not really, not at that time. I think Angel was teaching her how to be strong and how to deal with that guilt. Her love and respect for him came later on, probably during all those prison visits where they talked, he asked after her and he showed that her cared about Faith long-term.

Which means she was selfish, of course.

I don't see how accepting the consequences of your actions is selfish. But then I admit that a character's bad actions should have far-reaching consequences.

 

[Kerri]

I'm confused by most of this, because it really isn't right.
Lets start at the beginning:

Anya, of course. She was powerful and over 1000 years old, considered a star of the Vengeance Demons by D'hoffryn. But she fell in love with Xander and never even tried to get her powers back. She became almost human, so she could trust herself not to hurt him, and Xander would love her back. She gave up everything for completely selfish reasons.

She became human (not 'almost human') because Giles destroyed her necklace in 'the Wish'. She only asked Xander to the prom because everyone else was going with someone and she wasn't - it was like an attempt at fitting in woth other humans. Loving him came after and she didn't really give anything up for him.

Angel gave it all up for Buffy. He spent an entire century in hell, enduring incredible pain and torment. But he was willing to do that for love of Buffy - to make sure she was safe. It was just for Buffy, to save her from who he has been and how he has hurt her. He was incredibly selfish. After all, he didn't even seem to care about the world.

Seriously, what? He didn't have a choice in the matter, so how was he willing? Do the words 'close your eyes' ring any bells here? He didn't know what was going on.. he asked what was behind him and Buffy told him not to worry about it.

Faith was kind of an expert on this - as well as destroying out of hate. Hell, with the mayor she gave up her entire moral sense for pretty toys and affection, a semblance of love. She murdered 3 men, and then she tried to impress Angel by turning herself in and going to jail. Buffy had nothing to do with this really. Faith is a murderer, but only Buffy really matters enough for redemption? No, the only thing is Buffy is close to Angel. No, Faith gave up her freedom because she loved Angel and it was what she knew he wanted. He was going to ask her to do it after all.

When Faith went to the Mayor, it was pretty much her only hope. She had no friends and it was a race between the council or the police as to who would find her first. Hardly giving up things for love

Willow quit her overwhelming dark magic addiction for the love of Tara - but blew up the world when Tara wasn't there. Clearly her reformation was purely selfish. Oh, and then Willow later sought help after loosing control. She wanted to be a certain kind of person, a person who can be trusted not to hurt all the people she loved.

Willow didn't really quit magic for Tara. She wanted to and tried, but there were instances of her using magic and it causing them to argue.

Giles gave up everything he was after he poisoned Buffy, and put her in danger. A father's love for the child, yeah?

Giles was sacked as watcher. He didn't choose to give that up. Ok, he chose to come clean and try to save her, you could say that was out of love.

I think I an come up with lots of example - and, oh yeah. The vampire who went around the world to get a soul - for the same reason the others did - that incredible selfish motivation of loving someone.

There's been some debate as to what Spike went in search of. "Make me the man I was before" could mean lots of things

 

[gite63]

There's been some debate as to what Spike went in search of. "Make me the man I was before" could mean lots of things

No, it couldn't; Joss Whedon himself confirmed that Spike wanted his soul back.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

No, it couldn't

Yes it could. Joss Whedon confirmed that they purposely wrote that so as to confuse the audience as to Spike's true intentions. They wanted to divide the audience and the fan base. They were so good at orchestrating the misdirect that even now people are still debating what was really meant by it and what was really intended.

Regardless of what Spike wanted, the purpose of the line was intended for ambiguity and deception.

 

[gite63]

Yes it could. Joss Whedon confirmed that they purposely wrote that so as to confuse the audience as to Spike's true intentions. They wanted to divide the audience and the fan base. They were so good at orchestrating the misdirect that even now people are still debating what was really meant by it and what was really intended.

Regardless of what Spike wanted, the purpose of the line was intended for ambiguity and deception.

And regardless of this ambiguity, it was confirmed by Joss that Spike wanted his soul back.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But it doesn't change the fact that "make me the man I was before" could mean lots of things. Within the context of the show and not from interviews at conventions, etc, the purpose is unclear. It was never stated in the show what exactly Spike was trying to achieve.

 

[bespangeled]

But it doesn't change the fact that "make me the man I was before" could mean lots of things. Within the context of the show and not from interviews at conventions, etc, the purpose is unclear. It was never stated in the show what exactly Spike was trying to achieve.

Why would Spike want the chip removed? He already made that choice when Dru came, took him to the Bronze, and handed him some safe take-out. If he had left with her, he could have been the vampire he had been - and it would have been far easier to find away to either remove the chip or break it's effect.

He already could hurt Buffy - and he was clearly appalled when he did. I don't get the logic of wanting the chip removed.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Why would Spike want the chip removed?
He already could hurt Buffy - and he was clearly appalled when he did. I don't get the logic of wanting the chip removed.

I never said he wanted the chip removed. I just thought he was going there for his 'killer instinct' again. I thought he wanted to be like season 2 Spike again. I thought he wanted to be the 'big bad' again.

 

[gite63]

But it doesn't change the fact that "make me the man I was before" could mean lots of things. Within the context of the show and not from interviews at conventions, etc, the purpose is unclear. It was never stated in the show what exactly Spike was trying to achieve.

If you pay attention to all dialogues between the demon and Spike, you can reach the conclusion that Spike wanted his soul back and was not tricked: the demon calls him "a pathetic excuse for a demon", he mocks Spike because of what he wants - restoration. Of his soul. For a vampire to want this is quite pathetic... Look what she's reduced you to...

 

[Skanky Vamp]

the demon calls him "a pathetic excuse for a demon" Look what she's reduced you to...

Exactly. That's why he wanted to be his big bad self again. Who he was before she came into his life.

 

[bespangeled]

'm confused by most of this, because it really isn't right.
Lets start at the beginning:

I'm sorry - this is a matter of interpretation. If you believe differently that's fine - but you have no right to decide what is right and what isn't.

She became human (not 'almost human') because Giles destroyed her necklace in 'the Wish'. She only asked Xander to the prom because everyone else was going with someone and she wasn't - it was like an attempt at fitting in woth other humans. Loving him came after and she didn't really give anything up for him.

Yes, she became almost human, and I use the word almost to refer to her ability to fit into normal human life, not about her biology. She retained a lot of bias and a lot of knowledge from being over 1000 years old. After her necklace was destroyed she tried desperately to return to being a vengeance demon. She only gave those attempts up when she got together with Xander. The only reason that she tried human life was because of Xander - she loved him. Given all the things he did to her - up to and including leaving her alone at the altar to explain to everyone she had been dumped - she would have taken revenge if she had the ability.

Seriously, what? He didn't have a choice in the matter, so how was he willing? Do the words 'close your eyes' ring any bells here? He didn't know what was going on.. he asked what was behind him and Buffy told him not to worry about it.

You really think he was completely unaware that a huge portal was opening behind him? If he moved three steps to the side the entire situation would have changed. As Angel himself said - he made Buffy do it. He signaled her with his eyes. For what it's worth, he clearly believes he had a choice.

When Faith went to the Mayor, it was pretty much her only hope. She had no friends and it was a race between the council or the police as to who would find her first. Hardly giving up things for love

When did I mention the mayor? I was talking about Faith choosing to go to jail. She gave up her freedom for love - no, it was not a romantic love. But I defy you to tell me that Faith did not love Angel.

Willow didn't really quit magic for Tara. She wanted to and tried, but there were instances of her using magic and it causing them to argue.

Willow did quit magic after Tabula Rasa - and did not use magic until Seeing Red. That's most of the season. Again, she did it for love - she wanted Tara back.

Giles was sacked as watcher. He didn't choose to give that up. Ok, he chose to come clean and try to save her, you could say that was out of love.

Yup.

There's been some debate as to what Spike went in search of. "Make me the man I was before" could mean lots of things

There is always debate about every part of the B-verse. That was my point at the very beginning of the post. From context, and from the view expressed by the creator, I assume he went for a soul. As I said in my earlier post, I really don't see any benefit for him to get his chip removed. He was long past that, IMO
 

I never said he wanted the chip removed. I just thought he was going there for his 'killer instinct' again. I thought he wanted to be like season 2 Spike again. I thought he wanted to be the 'big bad' again.

But didn't that depend on getting his chip removed. I thought that was actually addressed when he told Lurky that he was still a warrior.

 

[gite63]

Exactly. That's why he wanted to be his big bad self again. Who he was before she came into his life.

The cave demon knew what Spike wanted and was mocking him because of that - "something about a woman. The Slayer."

 

[Skanky Vamp]

The cave demon knew what Spike wanted and was mocking him because of that - "something about a woman. The Slayer."

Yes, because a woman made him weak and he had to go to a demon to get his mojo back. That's my point, you can read it any way you want to read it. Even when he gets resouled you could make a point that it was an accident. He didnt expect it, as he says in the subsequent season.

Thats why I say you cant just dismiss it when someone else, looking at the same clues (as that is all we were ever given) comes up with a different reason.

 

[gite63]

Thats why I say you cant just dismiss it when someone else, looking at the same clues (as that is all we were ever given) comes up with a different reason.

Back to the original post - "there's been some debate", yes there's been, but it's pointless because the creator of the show said that Spike wanted his soul back. We can discuss it all we want, but that doesn't change the fact...