Character who gave it all up for the impure, selfish motive of love

[Skanky Vamp]

Back to the original post - "there's been some debate", yes there's been, but it's pointless because the creator of the show said that Spike wanted his soul back. We can discuss it all we want, but that doesn't change the fact...

But that is only pertinent if you know that. I never heard that. And the show creator numerous times toyed with his audience by saying one thing and doing another. So again.. you cant really dismiss someone from drawing their own conclusions.

 

[gite63]

But that is only pertinent if you know that. I never heard that.

Never heard that at the time or never at all?
 

I never said he wanted the chip removed. I just thought he was going there for his 'killer instinct' again. I thought he wanted to be like season 2 Spike again. I thought he wanted to be the 'big bad' again.

So, do you believe that Spike had changed (because of love or whatever), but as the change caused only sorrow to him, he wished to go back to his "former self" again? And for that, he needed outside help (I mean, he didn't feel evil enough anymore)? And the chip, he would deal with it later?

 

[bespangeled]

Yes, because a woman made him weak and he had to go to a demon to get his mojo back. That's my point, you can read it any way you want to read it. Even when he gets resouled you could make a point that it was an accident. He didnt expect it, as he says in the subsequent season.

Thats why I say you cant just dismiss it when someone else, looking at the same clues (as that is all we were ever given) comes up with a different reason.

When does he say he didn't expect to be souled? He talks about the effect, and how Angel should have told him - but he tells Buffy that he got his soul for her. So, I think that means he went to get his sol.

Once again - how does he get his mojo back without having the chip removed? Since he says he is still a warrior, what sort of mojo would he even want?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

When does he say he didn't expect to be souled?

He doesnt say that explicitly. He said something along the lines of it was all a mistake. Which again, you could take it several ways.

how does he get his mojo back without having the chip removed? Since he says he is still a warrior, what sort of mojo would he even want?

His love for the Slayer made him weak. She made him compassionate and caring. He wanted that gone.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

@gite63 "Spike did say he wanted a soul." I never said he didnt.. but he also said it was a mistake. So.. again.. draw your own conclusions.

 

[Silverspike]

I don't ever remember him saying that. In what episode did he say it and I'll look up the script.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

When he was rambling under the school. Don't look at the script as there are lines not in the script. He said, or implied, it was a mistake. It wasn't supposed to be like this, or words similar to. Those are all ways that people could misinterpret his actions.

 

[Silverspike]

I think he was referring to not fully understanding how traumatic having a soul would be rather then it was a mistake obtaining one.

*eta* Well I don't know where you got this idea from because I've just sped read the TV transcripts (what was actually broadcast) of the first 6 episodes of season 7 and can't see anything like what you're talking about.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I think he was referring to not fully understanding how traumatic having a soul would be rather then it was a mistake obtaining one.

But that precisely is my point. You think that. But other people may think something else. Everything was speculation and innuendo and filling in the blanks. Which is why there is nothing wrong with saying there "is debate as to the meaning of 'make me the man I was before'" and that it can "mean a lot of things" it just depends on how you interpret what is shown as there are no definitive answers given.

That was one of the rare moments that Buffy did it right.. the fact the each viewer can draw their own interpretation as to what happened and why, and that neither opinion affects the narrative.
 

*eta* Well I don't know where you got this idea from because I've just sped read the TV transcripts (what was actually broadcast) of the first 6 episodes of season 7 and can't see anything like what you're talking about.

Well, I am sure when you go back and watch the first 6 episodes you will hear it.

 

[Silverspike]

The transcripts are what was broadcast. There is nothing there that you're referring to.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

The transcripts are what was broadcast. There is nothing there that you're referring to.

Like I said twice before... go back and watch it. Reading is not the same thing. But yes, it is in the transcript also.. you just opt not to see it in that fashion, but watching it makes all the difference in the world as you can hear what is being said and what is not being said.

 

[Silverspike]

IT IS NOT THERE. I have no idea where you're getting this from. Sorry.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

IT IS THERE. You just have to look for it.

 

[Silverspike]

Right, If thats the case please provide a quote of said dialogue because I've read all the transcripts of what was actually broadcast and there's nothing there.

 

[gite63]

IT IS THERE. You just have to look for it.

Right, If thats the case please provide a quote of said dialogue because I've read all the transcripts of what was actually broadcast and there's nothing there.

On season 7, Spike always said he wanted his soul back; and if one could argue about the misdirection on S6, on S7 the writers would not contradict what Whedon did intend to tell - Spike went to that cave to get his soul back.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

On season 7, Spike always said he wanted his soul back; and if one could argue about the misdirection on S6, on S7 the writers would not contradict what Whedon did intend to tell - Spike went to that cave to get his soul back.

He never said that. That is how you interpret it. And that is exactly what they wanted. Why the whole soul reveal is ambiguous. He never said what he went to the demon for.

 

[gite63]

When he was rambling under the school. Don't look at the script as there are lines not in the script. He said, or implied, it was a mistake. It wasn't supposed to be like this, or words similar to. Those are all ways that people could misinterpret his actions.

"It isn't supposed to be this way" - Spike says that in Seeing Red, after the AR, about his feelings for Buffy, in opposition to what supposed to be: kill a Slayer.
 

He never said that. That is how you interpret it. And that is exactly what they wanted. Why the whole soul reveal is ambiguous. He never said what he went to the demon for.

He said several times, this is one of them:

Sleeper

BUFFY: Right. The chip.
SPIKE: No, not the chip! Not the chip, dammit. You honestly think I'd go to the end of the underworld and back to get my soul and then— Buffy, I can barely live with what I did. It haunts me. All of it. If you think that I would add to the body count now, you are crazy.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Fine.. I will spell it out.

Spike loves Buffy.
Buffy is depressed.
Buffy doesn't want to live.
Buffy was happier dead.
Buffy finds solace sexually in Spike.
Buffy doesn't love Spike.
Spike tries to rape Buffy so she will feel the spark again.
It doesnt work and he is sad.
He laments that they were never together.
Why does he love her?
He should want to kill her not love her.
He will make something change.
When he comes back she is going to get what she deserves.
He leaves to search for answers.
He dreams of killing her.
His dreams of killing her makes him cry.
He goes in search for the spark.
He goes to find that which he is lacking in their relationship.
Wants to give the slayer what she deserves.
He gets his soul.
He laments that even with a soul Buffy only wants his flesh because there is no spark.
He laments that even with a soul Buffy rejects him because there is no spark.
He explains he was trying to give her the spark (when he tried to rape her)​

Nowhere did Spike say he wanted a soul. Nowhere did Spike say he fought for a soul. The spark was not the soul for Spike. Buffy lost the spark. He fought for a way to restore what was missing. He fought so he could make Buffy feel it again, so that there would be change. He never said he wanted a soul. Even after he had one, he lamented the fact that it is what SHE wanted and not what he wanted.

Therefor, one could conclude that he never went looking for a soul.

 

[gite63]

He never said he wanted a soul.

Destiny
SPIKE: You had a soul forced on you. As a curse. Make you suffer for all the horrible things you've done. Me, I fought for my soul, went through the demon trials, almost did me in a dozen times over, but I kept fighting. Because I knew it was the right thing to do. It's my destiny.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I wont say anymore.. it was just stated that "make me the man I was before" was not debatable that it meant Spike went for his soul. To me it is debatable as I pointed out, but none of this really is part of the original topic and respangled gets mad when I hijack her threads.