Character who gave it all up for the impure, selfish motive of love

[bespangeled]

Bespangeled actually loves debate, though this may be a great other thread. I truly believe that Spike went for a soul - but I also believe damn near everything in Buffy is up for debate.

I would like to point out that Spike was unable to communicate in a sensible fashion until he talked to Buffy, so he didn't say that he wanted a soul in the basement of crazy , but that hardly counts. He was also having hallucinations and eating rats.
But yeah - a thread for this would really be interesting, and I will make one now.



https://www.buffy-boards.com/threads/what-did-spike-go-to-lurky-to-get.66166/

 

[gite63]

Therefor, one could conclude that he never went looking for a soul.

Do you realize that if Spike had got his soul by mistake, if he had been tricked by the demon, that we would have seen a whole different storyline for him in S7? His reaction, his dealing with the outcome, his whole behavior towards Buffy?

He wanted to go back to being evil - instead, he is stuck with a soul and guilt for what he had done to Buffy and others. If that were the case, then I would say that the writing in S7 was all wrong.

And it was a plotline that could be interesting if it was written right, and in the end, Spike still could become a Champion and get Buffy's respect/love.

 

[Kerri]

Do you realize that if Spike had got his soul by mistake, if he had been tricked by the demon, that we would have seen a whole different storyline for him in S7? His reaction, his dealing with the outcome, his whole behavior towards Buffy?

He wanted to go back to being evil - instead, he is stuck with a soul and guilt for what he had done to Buffy and others. If that were the case, then I would say that the writing in S7 was all wrong.

And it was a plotline that could be interesting if it was written right, and in the end, Spike still could become a Champion and get Buffy's respect/love.

Why would it have been different? Remember that once he has his soul he is no longer the demon as such. The human persona of him is in control and therefore he wouldn't be sad that he had been tricked and wishing he could be evil.

 

[gite63]

Why would it have been different? Remember that once he has his soul he is no longer the demon as such. The human persona of him is in control and therefore he wouldn't be sad that he had been tricked and wishing he could be evil.

Sure, once ensoulled (this is a word?) Spike would be fully aware of what he was before and regret it; but at the same time, the demon inside him, and even his memory, would tell a different story: "I have a soul now, but I didn't want that."

His interaction with Buffy would be different (it would have to be); he went to get his soul back for her, and that perception didn't change after he was souled.

If he had been tricked - if he had gone to the cave to get rid of the chip or to become evil again or forget his love for Buffy, whatever, a souled Spike would behave accordingly, with yet more guilt added to the mix - he loved Buffy and still went to a demon (out of anger) to make sure he would stay a monster, the very opposite of what Buffy inspired him to be in the past few months/years. The story would have to be different.

 

[thetopher]

I dunno, wouldn't Spike just lie? Like he did anyway in 'Beneath Her'? No-one else would ever know.
To play Devil's Advocate for a moment the other theory is still entirely plausible and wouldn't have changed anything significantly. The demon Spike was tricked by another demon (shocking!) and Spike the vamp with a soul takes all the credit...
I don't buy it but I can't really see how it can be disproved.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I dunno, wouldn't Spike just lie? Like he did anyway in 'Beneath Her'? No-one else would ever know.
To play Devil's Advocate for a moment the other theory is still entirely plausible and wouldn't have changed anything significantly. The demon Spike was tricked by another demon (shocking!) and Spike the vamp with a soul takes all the credit...
I don't buy it but I can't really see how it can be disproved.

Especially considering he never once called it a soul until Buffy, in reverence, said (paraphrasing) you got your soul. Then suddenly in the next episode he 'fought for his soul'

It was sorta like 'the last slayer I killed was on her knees beggin I spared her life' until he wanted to present himself in a different light and told a different story of her death. That's the genius of Spike, he is quick to adapt and recognize other peoples expectations and live up or down to them- and adjust his truths to fit the situation.

 

[thetopher]

It was sorta like 'the last slayer I killed was on her knees beggin I spared her life' until he wanted to present himself in a different light and told a different story of her death. That's the genius of Spike, he is quick to adapt and recognize other peoples expectations and live up or down to them- and adjust his truths to fit the situation.

It's true of both vampires since Angel does the same to some extent. Although Angel is somewhat a victim of 'ret-conning for his own show', he has lied and withheld info that would put him in a bad light with Buffy.
Maybe Spike did the same. Maybe its part of getting that soul- lying to protect yourself 101.

 

[gite63]

Trying to retconing 101. 😀

spark = soul. Great Joss Whedon.

And you forgot that Angelus was Spike's sire - what a bastard liar Spike is!

 

[Skanky Vamp]

lying to protect yourself 101.

Humans do it.. don't know why it would be unbelievable to souled demons would do that as well. Especially souled demons that are trying to bed a hottie.

 

[cryptwarmer]

Humans do it.. don't know why it would be unbelievable to souled demons would do that as well. Especially souled demons that are trying to bed a hottie.

good point! no real reason to believe a demon who gets a soul is going to use it to better purpose than any one born with one.

I know we are supposed to assume that since Spike suffered for his he would only use it for bright shiny purposes...but ain't necessarily so

 

[gite63]

good point! no real reason to believe a demon who gets a soul is going to use it to better purpose than any one born with one.

I know we are supposed to assume that since Spike suffered for his he would only use it for bright shiny purposes...but ain't necessarily so

And he did use it for a very *bright shiny* purpose... 🙂

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I really like this post.

When we discuss love on Buffy, it ususally devolves into a argument about whose love was the most selfless, not selfish. The later is far more interesting.

Firstly, I do not believe in unconditional love, even with family, so that influences my opinion on this considerably.

I believe the best example of selfish love on the show is the love Willow has for Buffy, actually. Willow brought Buffy back from the dead because she missed her - not because she believed Buffy was suffering in Hell. Willow did what was best for Willow, not for Buffy. She rationalized it in the way she needed to. I believe that Willow knew there was a chance that Buffy could be in Heaven.

Selfless love? Wll, that's an easy one: Spike's love for Buffy, obviously. Nothing comes close to his devotion to her. He got his soul back for her, and never once asked for more. He died for her.

Blaze, it's interesting you see Buffy's sacrifice for Dawn as selfish. I do too, but it's not a popular opinion. Buffy jumped because she knew if she let Dawn die, she would't be able to live with herself.

 

[bespangeled]

I dunno, wouldn't Spike just lie? Like he did anyway in 'Beneath Her'? No-one else would ever know.
To play Devil's Advocate for a moment the other theory is still entirely plausible and wouldn't have changed anything significantly. The demon Spike was tricked by another demon (shocking!) and Spike the vamp with a soul takes all the credit...
I don't buy it but I can't really see how it can be disproved.

Beneath you? When did he lie?
I really don't see him as either sane enough or caring about it enough to lie. He keeps telling Buffy to stake him at that point - he's seriously suicidal.

It was sorta like 'the last slayer I killed was on her knees beggin I spared her life' until he wanted to present himself in a different light and told a different story of her death. That's the genius of Spike, he is quick to adapt and recognize other peoples expectations and live up or down to them- and adjust his truths to fit the situation.

You mean the begging that Dana channeled in Damage?
DANA
(cowering)
Please don't. I have to get home to my son... to my Robin.

SPIKE
Robin? Oh. Hey, you're talkin' about Nikki, the slayer I offed back in—
(Dana looks up at him)
Uh, yeah. You probably don't want to think about that, pet.

But I agree that is the genius of Spike. 😀 I just don't see him as sane enough in the church to bother with a lie - and that's when he tells her he got it for her.

Humans do it.. don't know why it would be unbelievable to souled demons would do that as well. Especially souled demons that are trying to bed a hottie.

Uh, when did he try to bed any hottie? He had Anya writhing all over him, gagging for it!

I'm sure souled demons lie, I know Spike lies - I just don't see any percentage in lying when he's too crazy to know what's going on. He was still in the basement of crazy - and he returned there after the big soul conversation. To make a plan to lie you have to care how others see you.

 

[thetopher]

Beneath you? When did he lie?

Uh, for like 90% of the episode. 'Ghosts in the basement were making me crazy', attacking Anya to keep his secret, etc. Lies through ommision count too.

Selfless love? Wll, that's an easy one: Spike's love for Buffy, obviously. Nothing comes close

Angel/Connor, Angel/Darla (The Trial), Faith/Angel- all would have (or did) willingly gave their lives for the person they love- it just isn't romantic love.
I always thought familial love was far less selfish than romance- which can be self-indulgent.

I actually don't think Spike burned up at the end of Sunnydale for a girl, it was bigger than that. That's what the whole 'ILY/NYD' thing was all about. 'I'm not doing this because of you (finally), I'm doing it because its right, for the world, for me.'

As for S7 Spike wanted nothing from Buffy. Agree to disagree I guess...

 

[Wildfly]

I actually don't think Spike burned up at the end of Sunnydale for a girl, it was bigger than that. That's what the whole 'ILY/NYD' thing was all about. 'I'm not doing this because of you (finally), I'm doing it because its right, for the world, for me.'

Not sure the NYD thing to was telling her it's not about her, to me it sounded more like 'you don't have to lie just cos i am dying'
And besides what you mean it was right for the world?
That place was trashed and crumbling all around them. He could have tossed the amulet into the mess they'd created, could've got out with Buffy. Yet he chose to stay and die.

It's interesting, cos in the Gift he was prepared to do the same. He was perfectly cool with giving his (un)life for Buffy's cause.
And all those slayer-fighting Buffy-bugging games. As if he had no self-preservation and felt compelled to end his life in the most theatrical way he could find 🙂

Or was it his desire to show Buffy who he was and go out in flames to prove she chose her champion well?
The vampire did his duty, the vampire can go. And why would he stick around?
Let's assume for a sec that he was in the vinicity and heard Angel asking Buffy whether she loved Spike and her reply. And the whole cookie dough speech.
But even if he hadn't listened, i dont think he had illusions about him being needed in Buffy's post-SunnyD period.
With a bunch of slayers being created, Buffy is - at last - free of her destiny and doesn't need a 100+ year old vamp with a baggage to shadow her.

Maybe he felt he had no purpose and place in the world and i imagine all the guilt was weighing him down.
It must have been really depressing, to have a soul and to look back at his glory days with revulsion. He said soul equals self-hatred. Even looking at his affair with Buffy in retorespect - why would she need someone like him?

Yes, Buffy believed in Spike to do the right thing, just because he was unique to get a soul in his own initiative. But he only did it for her, so not sure if he himself had any clue what he should do with a soul. So he bowed out.

 

[thetopher]

Not sure the NYD thing to was telling her it's not about her, to me it sounded more like 'you don't have to lie just cos i am dying'

No, it was a 'this isn't about us. It isn't about something bigger. You don't have to toss me a bone, I'm doing this because I want to, because I need to. For everyone, because its right. Go. Live.'

And besides what you mean it was right for the world?

That he had found a purpose for getting his soul beyond Buffy. Finally, he 'knew' why he'd gotten it, why Buffy had believed in him. Spike's whole journey that year had been 'go back to Buffy, show her I've changed, help her, etc' but nothing beyond that. But here, he's doing good for its own sake.
A selfless act, a heroic one.

That place was trashed and crumbling all around them. He could have tossed the amulet into the mess they'd created, could've got out with Buffy. Yet he chose to stay and die.

I disagree. It's quite clear to me that Spike couldn't move when the amulet had started up. He was about to become a living death-ray and channel incredible sun-power through himself/soul/nipples into the hellmouth.
He was the fuel for the incredibly powerful magical artefact. It's why he couldn't run, even if wanted to.

It's interesting, cos in the Gift he was prepared to do the same. He was perfectly cool with giving his (un)life for Buffy's cause.

Again, I think he was doing it for Buffy and Dawn. Dawn was in danger- Spike had affection for Dawn and she was important to Buffy. So he would've given his life for her.
It's a subtle difference but its there.

 

[cryptwarmer]

And he did use it for a very *bright shiny* purpose... 🙂

He did. AND (not but) there was the issue of him suffering and going crazy not only because the first was making him it's b*tch but as the result of said soul.

That played into his using it for bright shiny purposes. When he left SD to get his soul, I don't think his motives were all bright and shiny. He was still motivated by getting the girl.

Fair enough. Then he gets soul. Experiences what having a soul means and realizes getting the girl isn't the priority...and does the bright shiny thing.

I think it would have been possible for a person in his situation to get the soul, realize the actual dynamics of his relationship with Buffy and decide he wanted revenge. A suffering soul can result in people becoming giving or in becoming vindictive.

When Spike was still with the crazy and he showed up at the Bronze, he was not yet to the point of using his soul only for bright shiny purposes, he was a jerk. I don't think that was the First making him do that. I think he was not yet totally to the good place with his soul.

He still resented what Buffy did, what happened with Anya, etc.

Later in S7 he's come to terms with those things...and with his soul.
 

Firstly, I do not believe in unconditional love, even with family, so that influences my opinion on this considerably.



Selfless love? Wll, that's an easy one: Spike's love for Buffy, obviously. Nothing comes close to his devotion to her. He got his soul back for her, and never once asked for more. He died for her.

I don't personally believe in unconditional love either.

I don't think Spike died for Buffy though. I think he had gotten past just doing things for her. He was able to do things for reasons beyond that. It was a thing he admired about her, and her was able to incorporate that into his own decision making.

But...it was a loving tribute to her that he made that decision. He asked her to help him, she believed he could be a better man, and wanted to be for her...then ultimately for reasons beyond her. That's real growth.

It still bugs me that he said to her "no you don't, but thanks for saying it." because I think he did know she loved him, and was mature enough to understand and value that no longer pining for 'in love".

I felt like the writer's threw that in to press home some point to the viewers, but it ended up cheapening things IMO. Spike had grown enough to understand her love and wouldn't have thrown it back in her face.

He knew her enough to know she wouldn't have said it just to make him feel better, and he wouldn't have needed her to.
 

Or was it his desire to show Buffy who he was and go out in flames to prove she chose her champion well?

I believe that he stuck around for the reason he said he did. He wanted to see how it ended. He always loved a scrape and he had long since let go of the idea of a crypt for two with a picket fence.
 

No, it was a 'this isn't about us. It isn't about something bigger. You don't have to toss me a bone, I'm doing this because I want to, because I need to. For everyone, because its right. Go. Live.'

agreed!

 

[bespangeled]

Uh, for like 90% of the episode. 'Ghosts in the basement were making me crazy', attacking Anya to keep his secret, etc. Lies through ommision count too.

Huh? Ghosts in the basement were making him crazy - or rather he didn't know that the First was actually said ghosts. We watched that happen. Attacking Anya to keep his secret - how is that a lie?

If not telling everyone everything is a lie by omission in your book, then let me explain boundary issues.

It's interesting, cos in the Gift he was prepared to do the same. He was perfectly cool with giving his (un)life for Buffy's cause.
And all those slayer-fighting Buffy-bugging games. As if he had no self-preservation and felt compelled to end his life in the most theatrical way he could find 🙂

Death and Glory - and sod all else. He's still young.🙂

I disagree. It's quite clear to me that Spike couldn't move when the amulet had started up. He was about to become a living death-ray and channel incredible sun-power through himself/soul/nipples into the hellmouth.
He was the fuel for the incredibly powerful magical artefact. It's why he couldn't run, even if wanted to.

He held hands with Buffy, then pulled his hand away.

I think it would have been possible for a person in his situation to get the soul, realize the actual dynamics of his relationship with Buffy and decide he wanted revenge. A suffering soul can result in people becoming giving or in becoming vindictive.

When Spike was still with the crazy and he showed up at the Bronze, he was not yet to the point of using his soul only for bright shiny purposes, he was a jerk. I don't think that was the First making him do that. I think he was not yet totally to the good place with his soul.

He still resented what Buffy did, what happened with Anya, etc.

Wow - I just thought that he didn't want Anya to rat him out. She could wipe the floor with him in her demon state - and did. As for Buffy - he's doing what he's good at - piss her off. Either it makes her forget what Anya just said, or he gets staked. Either way it's a good thing.

He knew her enough to know she wouldn't have said it just to make him feel better, and he wouldn't have needed her to.

I disagree - I'd say he knew her well enough that would gather all the positive things she had felt for him and did feel, and call them love. And, knowing Buffy, I suspect he knew she would do that. So, he's about to go pillar of flame - no reason not to be honest. Why die on a lie?

 

[thetopher]

Huh? Ghosts in the basement were making him crazy - or rather he didn't know that the First was actually said ghosts.

Ironically at the time Spike didn't know this, he really did think it was all his soul making him crazy.
And yeah, lying by ommision if somebody says 'you're not telling me everything' and then going out of your way to obscure the fact- see attacking Anya, etc- is still lying.
Like Angel wasn't being honest in S1 up until Buffy found out that he was a vampire- he wasn't being fully truthful, for reasons.

He held hands with Buffy, then pulled his hand away.

He couldn't run away is what I mean. He was standing there, he could gesture and touch, but he couldn't make a run for it like it was claimed.

 

[gite63]

Wow - I just thought that he didn't want Anya to rat him out. She could wipe the floor with him in her demon state - and did. As for Buffy - he's doing what he's good at - piss her off. Either it makes her forget what Anya just said, or he gets staked. Either way it's a good thing.

This.

He didn't want Buffy - or anyone - to know about his soul. He got desperate when Anya discovered it (and due his state of mind, it's understandable) and attacked her, a demon perfectly capable of defend herself. I don't get why in hell Buffy got in the middle of the brawl - Anya really didn't need a protector... It was his right not wanting to tell about the soul - but as I said before, if he doesn't tell, he is lying; if he tells, he is being manipulative...