Debate: Capitalism vs. Communism

Originally posted by Soulgasm

lol...lorne...you have the internet my compadre...you can learn and grow about the entire world man...communism censors the internet...while anarchy...doesn't have an internet...

lorne...if you wanna see an example of anarchy...somalia and 10 years ago afghanistan were perfect examples....could do whatever you wanted...but...your place lived in constant warfare...by far...the worst places to live....i don't know bout you...but i'd sacrifice the right to murder, rape, pillage in order to live in peace...
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that's a misinterpretation of anarchy, anarchy is not total chaos in the world like many people seem to think and like those stupid punk-rockers think... the world is already pure chaos created by order, that's how it is... anarchy is just a state derived from anomy, anarchy is a state where there are no hierarchies of power, no rulers, anomy is a state without organization and rules.. i believe this is how the world should, sadly it depends on the people because to freely live in this state people should evolve, at least in the thinking manner.... it has nothing to do with lack of techonology or anything like that, and you're example with afghanistan, that's just chaos, simple chaos... in any given case, complete freedom is unreachable, at least in the philosophical sense of the word, but it is extremely limited by society... maybe it's just me, but i never understood why we should follow the rules of other people set years ago if we don't want to, it doesn't make sense to me, and also most of the reasons this rules exist would disappear if people stop thinking like they do...
but of course, this is just wishful thinking, i know it's impossible to expect mankind's way of thinking to change, that's the reason socialism and communism fail and fail and only fail, but I think that having such an utopic goal in mind, helps you reach a higher state of freedom, even if such thing does not truly exist

and what I said to Willow, was about laws regarding consensual crimes, i just don't see why they exist
if you don't know, consensual crimes are those activities that you agree to participate in and the only one that may be harmed is yourself, I just don't see why these laws exist, they do prevent personal growth... later, when I'm at home, I'll post a link to a book that explores this topic...
 
Couldn't agree more, except to the last part.

and what I said to Willow, was about laws regarding consensual crimes, i just don't see why they exist
if you don't know, consensual crimes are those activities that you agree to participate in and the only one that may be harmed is yourself, I just don't see why these laws exist, they do prevent personal growth... later, when I'm at home, I'll post a link to a book that explores this topic...
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So, what you are saying is don't protect people from themselves? And how about those people who have a serious mental problem? Do we just leave 'em on the road. Mustn't we care for them, help them? I think so!
 
the prob i see with anarchy is that: no rules, CAN make chaos.... to have anarchy work out FINE will reqiuer for EVERYONE to act sivil... i mean there will be no crim, cos there are no rules to tell you what crim is; but you will have murder, rape, pedofili and exploited.... (inles you have laws for crimes like that)and like Allycat said.. there are people who are metaly ill who need help... who need rules!

Originally posted by Lorne The Host
and what I said to Willow, was about laws regarding consensual crimes, i just don't see why they exist
if you don't know, consensual crimes are those activities that you agree to participate in and the only one that may be harmed is yourself, I just don't see why these laws exist, they do prevent personal growth...
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i was just wondering.. what acts are you talking off??? drugs and so on or was it some thing else?
 
Allycat, if there should be a government it should protect people from other people, not people from what they decide to do, and with the mental problems, as long as you talk about people diagnosed mental illness, you are right, they must be helped, but that has nothing to do with consensual crimes....

and Polexia, yes, drugs is an example, possession and use only physically hurts you...

and yes, the state of anarchy requires people to not act stupidly, just like socialism is based on having good faith to what other people might do and that rulers won't try to get more powers, that's why anarchy works better as a philosphical concept...
Imposition of Order = Escalation of Chaos, the world is chaotic, but it already has an armony, order is mostly a concept based on the idea perfection and morale, which is derived from religious ideas even though we might have nothing to do with those ideas, it's somewhat unnatural

and a note, i pretty much know i suck at explaining all this, half of it is something that I can't put in words, it's mostly a way of watching the world
 
lol...bull shiz drugs only hurt you...that would've been true with weed from the 70's...but the weed now...its getting pretty damn hard...
 
Originally posted by Soulgasm
lol...bull shiz drugs only hurt you...that would've been true with weed from the 70's...but the weed now...its getting pretty damn hard...
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that's irrelevant, and it's not only that kind of drugs, also medicines and stuff.. but it doesn't matter, you should be able to use them and destroy your body as much as you want...
 
I don't know much about capitalism, but I'm definitely against communism, which is still existing in Vietnam.

>South Vietnamese people can't even view emails that speaks against the Viet Cong, otherwise if the government finds out, that person's in huge trouble.
> You can't speak out against the president.
> There's a holiday in which certain streets where people are forced to hang the North Vietnamese flag out their windows.
> Spies for the Viet Cong are even in the US!

Communism runs a controlled government, but there's so much wrong with it. Everywhere I go in Vietnam, the communists are controlling everything! If a little kid walks across this certain street where a communist is guarding, his parents can land in jail.

Communism does not allow much freedom and is sometimes brutal.
 
Originally posted by Soulgasm
lol...bull shiz drugs only hurt you...that would've been true with weed from the 70's...but the weed now...its getting pretty damn hard...
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agree that drugs do affect more then you!!!! yeah if you shote up heroin, it affects only you physickly... but how about the people around you? they get affected to! my mom had a foster brother when she grew up he became an heroin addict!! and it affected NOt olnly him.. then he stayed clean for 9years, had children was married and then he started again, how do you think his kids are doing now, with their dad off some where in the countryside trying to get cleaned up??? but then he does drugs again, and then he trys to get cleaned up agian?

my big brother, he used to drink alot, and do drugs, but for him it wasn't what he did that mattered, it was the feeling of intoxication that mattered! (i think he needed to numb himself from the world! he's NOt had a sweet life!)and when he did stupid things like being drunk and drive WAY too fast,with our brother in the car, and they crashed into a tree; and smashed the car... do you think that he was the only one affected??(my bros been clean since may 2002)

these laws are there, not cos their stopping your personal growth, they're there to protect you so that you won't do drugs, cos drugs CAN mess up your life! They are there to protect others so that you can't drag them along with you.... even though i have to say that some laws and rules forced on us by the state is somewhat silly and uncalled for, still some are VERY called for!! and some we NEED!

Originally posted by Lorne The Host
that's irrelevant, and it's not only that kind of drugs, also medicines and stuff.. but it doesn't matter, you should be able to use them and destroy your body as much as you want...
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i don't think that you should be alowed to destroy yourself!! i have seen people do that!!! and it's not good for the person our the ones around! Don't you care about the people around you? shouldn't we care about the people around us!

i don't know what kind of medication you are talking off so i'm not going to say too much about it, but they make medication for a reason, they are created to help you through what ever they are ment to help you through!! they are not ment to be abused! I have met housewifs who are also heavy pill users, and they tear their familys apart!! trust me..... they can shred things to pieces! and they don't even see that their doing it!!




slayerangel: some very good points!

NOTE: i did not try to be rude in this post or anything, so i hope that i'm not! 😉 if i am: SORRY!
 
yo lorne....if your talking about euthanasia for terminally ill people...then its okay...they deserve the right to pass on with dignity..

p-xia definately hit it on the head with her examples...drugs affect everyone...even if your the only one getting high...

i think the problem with today's drug problem is that its being treated as a criminal act rather than a disease...a person shouldn't go to jail for smoking a blunt...that dude should receive medical care for the addiction...

slayerangel...good points...i believe stalin liquidated like twice as many people than hitler...bout 20 mill...real communism is really different than the theory...

from what i see....communism is the perfect system on paper...but the problem is that its run by imperfect people...
 
Lorne: I'm sorry I didn't realise you were talking about a matter of law. Before I start I'll remind people that I'm a student of British law, and I think in that case we are talking at cross purposes; america is somewhat behind Britain in the idea of consensual crimes.

As you defined it, in British law, drugs are not consensual crimes per se. Simply because you consent to something does not make it right, and legal opinions are a reflection of teh values of the time; for example I'm sure no one who has read of teh case R v Brown, involving sadomasochistic acts resulting in GBH, can agree that consent is always a valid defence. The sentiment expressed by teh majority verdict in R v Brown is that whislt these acts may have occured on private premises, they do not simpyl harm those involved; think of the situation of someone out of mind on drugs, who crashes the car they were driving irresponsibly. The two people dead in the other car were not to blame, but then, if drugs is a consensual crime, how do you define its limitation?

The purpose of the state is to provide structure, an outline to our lives, and that which goes on inside teose perameters is legal; that which happens outside of those permaters is that which may cause harm to others. I don't believe there can ever be a valid defence to a crime such as drugs (and yes I know my conservative capitalist ideals are coming out strong here) I think that in many cases, laws on teh use of drugs, and other "consensual crimes" can be regarded as right; the state acts to protect hte individual as well as teh masses; could any person who is nto completely self centred say they would prefer tehir right to drugs over the right of others to live in peace. I certainly wouldn't agree

please excsue the many typos; in a compelte rush between seminars and lectures!! Lorne: crimianl justice is my specialised subject this year, so I'm not as hot on substantive criminal law as I was last year, please excuse any inconsistencies between our legal systems 🙂
 
While agree with what you three have just said, then why is alcohol legal if it hurts you more than most drugs? or tobacco?

It's true that drug-use may hurt others around you emotionally, but then we should outlaw breaking up with your girlfriend because she might get hurt.... this sounds stupid, but that's the point, where exactly do you decide which damage is worse? the way I see, if only you and your property get hurt, go for it and mind your own business...

and to the example about the person really drugged that crashes and kills innocent people, then the problem is not drug use, it is driving while being drugged, just like drinking and driving, he shouldn't be thrown to jail for that (drug use) but for putting people in danger while driving... it's just like if you are not drunk nor drugged and decide to drive extremely fast in a school zone, you are endangering others...


maybe this book can explain it better than I can
 
lorne: the reason laws are harder on drugs then on alchol, is of course cos we're more afraid of the consequnces! and it takes alot less of sertain drugs to lose control then alkohol.

when a personn is high on drugs or drunk on alcohol, the intoxication affect the persons judgement and the persons desitions... you may think that you can do things you CAN'T do and so on... that's why you shouldn't drink and drive.. you are not quite yourself even though you think you are! and about the school zone... your ability to react is not as afected when your not on drugs as it is when your on! when you're drunk or high, your brain(even though you might think that it's normal) it isn't! it's slower, and you react slower, and even though you think you might have control you don't!! when you are druged up and behind the wheel of a car, you might think you're just like always, but your not.. just like if you're drunk, you think that you act normal, and that no one can see that you've had a few.. but they can! i know this woman, who has periods of time when she's on too many pills... and she thinks that EVERYONE around her, is blind, and that they can't see that she's doped up.. but we all can... (i don't know if this makes sence... but i'm trying to point out how things are not what they seem to yourself when you are afected by Drugs or Alcoh, that you don't have the same 'qualitys' as you usaly had! and when you, even though you know or should know thatn you're not quit yourself, then put others in dager, then the law enforcers feel they have to knock extra hard down on that!)

i take criminal politics in school right now, and we have read and studied this subject ALOT latly! and how laws are there to make you NOT wanting to do sertain things lie doing drugs... and that is a reason, you'll prob get a harder punishment if your affected by drugs when you hurt someone while driving then if you where sober! They don't only want to make sure that you won't do it again, but they also want to make sure that others don't do it!
here in norway, they have a zero tolerance inside law when it comes to drugs, cos it's wrecked alot of lives!! here where i live, in Oslo, you can't walk through the citys cetrum, without seenig at least 10 or 20 drug adicts, who are out there buying, or begging for money, so that they can buy!
and i don't think that when a person uses drugs, that the people around are only affected emotionally!!! some even feel it on the body as well!!

and yeah, you do endager others if you drive too fast in a school zone, and you have a BIG chance of hitting someone, but you also have a good chance at being able to stop the car before it's WAY too late! but if you drive through the same zone in the same speed aftected.. you might not be that lucky!
 
lorne...you may think that drugs only do harm emotionally...but what about the husband that gets high after work...and never comes home until the next day...even if he has kids that depend on him for food and care...

even if it is your body...the community still will have to pay for the abuse in the form of future hopspital bills due to drug use...we end up paying for the falk ups for other people...

what about the 20 something that takes a hit of some coke or ice and starts raging out of control...direct effects of those drugs...

and lorne...don't pull this...that was hard drugs and that they should be controlled...because in this day and age...all drugs are falkin hardcore...
 
let's get back to the main topic, there's nothin you can tell me that will change my mind on that, if you want to destroy your body do it, all the examples you have listed include a non-consensual crime which is the one that should be addressed...
 
SG: very good points LOL just had to say that!!

well i have nothing more at the moment to ad to the commu capit debate!
 
lorne....you as an anarchist seem to rely on the law allot...doesn't add up dog... i know that TD wouldn't like it....

non-consensual??dude...how do you explain the violent reactions to a coke rage...that is a direct side effect of the drug....

yo and lorne...you are a rock afficianado....don't you realize that drugs have ruined so many mindblowing lives....the illest guitarist ever....Jimmy Hendrix...died drowning in his own vomit due to a heroine overdose...for killing a genius like that...drugs don't deserve any respect...
 
I can't really add a lot that hasn't been said already. I just think that none of the systems will ever work out completely. People have to many different ideas about what should be done, from Anarchy to Communism and everything in between. Even IF one of these systems could be successfully introduced into a country not everyone would agree. People would rise up (other countries would interfere) to change the current system, and a new system would be put in place then the cycle would go on. Here in the US people are always complaining about the government, and I am assuming it goes like that in other countries as well. We're lucky our country has stayed inwardly peaceful for so long. Thing is each country can only function if a majority of the people in it are happy, and I don't believe there is a system that can do better than pleasing some of the people most of the time. Anarchy seems to unstable, people are to unstable without rules, and Communism like Soulgasm said "is the perfect system on paper...but the problem is that its run by imperfect people..." Capitalism is based on money, money leads to greed, and since people are imperfect, there will be greedy *******s that ruin it for everyone else. All of the systems have the same flaw, people. We won't ever have a perfect society because the people aren't perfect.
What else can I say. Humans ruin it for themselves, so I guess we have to do the best we can with what we got.
 
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