Did Buffy love Spike?

Yes, she had plenty of time to say the words, "Yes, I do..." so I don't see why you would say I'm being 'shirty'... unless you're just trying to be mean now...

You say other people ignore the bad angel stuff and only focus on the good, yet what are doing with the spuffy stuff?! The exact same thing... Sounds like a contradiction to me...

Anyway, I'm done with this convo. You believe what you want and I'll believe what I want. 🙂
 
palabravampiress
palabravampiress
Wow. I missed all the fireworks. This debate got heated. lol.
Raye said:
Yes, she had plenty of time to say the words, "Yes, I do..." so I don't see why you would say I'm being 'shirty'... unless you're just trying to be mean now...

You say other people ignore the bad angel stuff and only focus on the good, yet what are doing with the spuffy stuff?! The exact same thing... Sounds like a contradiction to me...

Anyway, I'm done with this convo. You believe what you want and I'll believe what I want. 🙂
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you think I'm being *mean* because I called you "shirty"? :lmao: Sorry, it was a JOKE, you know, because Spike said that to Buffy & Buffy replied "What is *shirty* anyway, that's not even a word!" Heh.

Oh, & I don't ignore any of the bad stuff about Spike. He was bad/evil/wrong on many occasions. But that's part of what I like about him. :hehe:
 
LittleMissLikesToFight said:
I don't know how i feel about the whole thing. I'm not sure it was the romantic love she had with Angel, i do think she loved him as a person, which is amazing for Spike seeing that for a long time she just saw him as a "thing". Now she was acknowledging he was a PERSON, and a good one at that, someone who was deserving of love.
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That's been my point all along. Buffy DID love Spike, but very differently than she loved Angel - same with Riley... DID love him, just differently. Not all love has to be romantic & roses & butterflies & chocolate truffles. Some love is raw, wild, and not always good for us.

I once heard that romantic love is a fire that keeps you warm, whereas wild love is a fire that consumes you. I think Buffy's love for Angel WAS romantic, & her love for Spike was consuming. She even said as much herself, to Spike, nonetheless, as in *consumes* ... "until there's nothing left."
 
Note: "shirty" is one of those British English words that Spike sometimes throws in just to remind you that he's British. lol. Basically, it means "grumpy." I write a couple of Brits in another RPG, and I often use this site for the purpose of getting my slang right. The other day, I happened upon the word "shirty" and thought: "Huh. So Spike did use an actual word."

From the "Slang" section of the site:

Shirty - "Don't get shirty with me young man" was what my Dad used to tell me when I was little. He was referring to my response to his telling off for doing some terrible little boy thing. Like tying my brother to the back of Mum's car or putting my shoes in the toilet. It meant I was getting bad tempered.
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That said, I just wanna add... I disagree with the notions that: A.) The truth of Buffy's final statement to Spike is dependent upon his acceptance or rejection of that statement and B.) Buffy wasn't Buffy after her resurrection, and so the effect that that traumatic experience had on her interpersonal relationships is somehow invalidated.

First of all, love isn't dependent upon the other person's response. It is possible to love unrequited. If Buffy says she loves Spike and then Spike rejects that love, it doesn't render Buffy's words a lie. SHE probably still loves Spike. All Spike's reaction does is shed light onto his feelings on the matter. Whatever his feelings might be, they certainly don't control hers. Buffy's feelings are her own, not Spike's to validate or invalidate.

Secondly, to apply the logic that Buffy came back somehow altered, and so the love that she claimed she felt for Spike was not really love means that you have to do a couple of kinda weird things: A.) You have to ignore the episode in which Tara confirms that Buffy did not come back wrong and B.) you have to invalidate the rest of her interpersonal relationships, too. So Buffy's relationship with Dawn isn't real. Her rift with Giles isn't real. Her friendship with Xander isn't real. Her distance from Willow/trust in Tara isn't real. Her cookies talk with Angel isn't real. I mean, if you believe that the main character's interpersonal relationships are unreal and carry no weight or meaning due to the circumstances of her resurrection, doesn't that sort of take away a lot of the impetus for emotional investment? If I thought nothing Buffy did after she came back mattered, then I would probably have found seasons 6 and 7 to be pretty darn boring. For me to care about the last two seasons, then I need to think that Buffy's growth as a person matters just as much as it ever did, and that includes all of her relationships -- even Spike.
 
VisionGuy
VisionGuy
Well said. I hope the Bangels don't get shirty now. LOL ;P
Tranquillity
Tranquillity
eloquently said, as usual
Really there should be 5 different variations of this thread...it has far too much scope.


Did Buffy love Spike?

To quote a certain Slayer but Gee could ya vague that up for me?


Like many other people have said already there are different types of love, it isn't necessarily a romantic relationship that we are discussing. This I think is true of Buffy and Spike.

I agree with Palabra, we can't just dicount what Buffy says becuase we don't like it. I think Buffy loved him, I don't think it was romantic, not just because I'm a Bangel but because they had a totally different vibe in those last few eps. I think Spike was Buffy's best friend, much like Cordy was Angel's.
 
Keanoite said:
Really there should be 5 different variations of this thread...it has far too much scope.


Did Buffy love Spike?

I think Spike was Buffy's best friend, much like Cordy was Angel's.
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I think Spike was Buffy's comrade in arms, something that goes far beyond mere friendship. Was she in love with him? Everyone has their own opinion on that matter, but I don't think that anyone can doubt that she trusted him with her life, and the life and welfare of her family and friends, even after the events of "Seeing Red." She believed in him completely, even after she thought that he had gone back to killing humans. And he was the one who did not betray her when things started going bad.

It's a lot like the relationship Mal and Zoe have in "Firefly." They've shed blood together. That makes them closer than friends, closer than family, and closer than lovers. He was the one she trusted to cover her back when it really mattered.
 
Tranquillity
Tranquillity
nicely said.
If I say I am a turtle, am I a turtle? Regardless of how sincere I seem to be when I say it, it's quite apparent that I am not a turtle.

Buffy may have said that she loved Spike merely to sate him before he died.

Edit:

(Sorry, I can't figure out how to edit posts.)

In response to white avenger, I don't think that Buffy was lying completely, I think that she was exaggerating her feelings for Spike, but there were definite feelings there. She just didn't love Spike.
 
Bluebird
Bluebird
[No message]
white avenger
white avenger
Who knows? You might be a turtle with a really good disguise, passing as human. Seriously, I don't think that Buffy would lie to Spike at a time like that about a subject so serious. It just wouldn't be right.
X
xgirlanachronism245x
Yes but being a turtle is physical, being in love is emotional... so obviously there is a difference. I don't believe that Buffy would have said that just to please him... she's not to type to do a thing like that...
Kana said:
I've never heard Buffy say that she loves Spike/Riley/Angel the most.
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In Season 7, Episode 5 "Selfless", Buffy and Xander are arguing about killing Anya and Buffy says, "I killed Angel! Do you even remember that? I would have given up everything I had to be with—I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life, and I put a sword through his heart because I had to."

I take that as a declaration of her love to Angel and how it really is deep enough to "trump" the others (I was trying to put that more delicatly, but I really had no idea how to say it). Granted, one could argue that Spike isn't in "this life"...but from that quote, I always thought it meant that Buffy had one love and that was Angel.

I don't think Buffy ever *really* loved Spike, or fell in love with him. I think she loved him for changing and how he treated her (for the most part, naturally) but I don't think she was IN love with him ever.
 
Yes, in the end; she loved him at last... She refused the possibility of loving Spike, but in the last season, she realised that she loved him... She allways protected him and wanted to be with him in the last season, because she saw that he has a real soul...🙂
 
Buffy and Spike's relationship has many levels, or skins"¦ like an onion"¦ thank you Shrek. Let's put this question into perspective with a roll down memory lane, in order to answer the question on the recent past, it seems relevant we look into the not-so-recent:

Season 2: Mortal enemies, Spike and Drusilla enter as the season's big bad, aided later by Angelus.

Season 3: (heck if Lover's Walk can earn Spike a picture on the Season 3 DVD set, it is surely going to be included, here) Spike comes back to Sunnydale, after being kicked out by Drusilla"¦ supposedly because Drusilla thinks Spike is in love with Buffy at this point, but Spike sure doesn't act like it"¦ (sorry for the continuity rant)"¦ he comes back to reek havoc, and does so by kidnapping Willow and Xander, but gives up the jig so that Buffy can save her friends in the nick"¦ and, the love's bitch speech provides perspective for Bangel, and their relationship.

Season 4: Spike is back as a witless foil, causing more havoc"¦ no love for Buffy, out to kill her"¦ halfheartedly

Season 5: Spike finds an obsession in Buffy; he still wants to kill her"¦ but thinks she would be a good "taste" as Spike says in FFL. At this point Buffy has no reason to see Spike as anything but a demon that she is too good for. Then Buffy dies. This seems to solidify the fact that Spike will be apart of the group, he finds a place with the Scoobies.

Season 6: Buffy comes back from the grave. Although she is not "changed" as in the fact that she is a demon, or less human than she was when she sacrificed herself. Coming back from the dead can't not change you. She comes back lost, unable to deal"¦ and finds solace in Spike. She screws him stupid, in order to feel like she is apart of this world. And Spike"¦ likes it, and hates it. After getting what he wanted he still does not have her"¦ not in the idealistic version he would like to. Certainly not like Angel had Buffy. This was new, it was adult, and it was a symbiotic relationship of user and user. Beat. Spike gets himself a soul, to atone.

Season 7: Buffy and Spike begin to heal their wounds (respectively). They have been through so much together"¦ they have fought to the death, known the deepest parts of one another (that sounded less sexy in my head), and confided in one another things they would have told no one else. They have moved on to a different sort of relationship, one filled with trust and love. There's the word"¦ the word this thread was created for. Love. Of course Buffy and Spike saw things in one another that allowed them to find respect in a post destructive relationship way. There were awkward moments, shifting in the doorway, misspoken words"¦ naturally. They are champions together, and Buffy relies on Spike. Buffy gives Spike the amulet, she dooms him to die. And she loves him. This time she killed the man who is in her heart she did not kiss and kill. She grabbed his hand, told him she loved him"¦ and left to live another day. In the commentary for Chosen Joss says that he told (paraphrasing here): Sarah to tell Spike she loved her, and mean it, and have James deliver his line and mean that he loves her, too.

Raye said:
Just for the record, I don't only think it wasn't love because of Bangle either.
It wasn't love because she said she loved him yet didn't mean it...
It wasn't love because they treated each other so badly...
It wasn't love because ultimately they were just convenient for each other...
It wasn't love because it wasn't the real Buffy... she changed when she came back from the dead...
It wasn't love... 🙂
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I think we need to have a dividing line between Spike pre-soul, and post-soul. There is a continent between Angel and Angelus, and Spike's character deserves the same respect. I know that Joss wants Spike to be light grey with a soul, and dark grey without, but let's not forget that without a soul Spike is a bloodthirsty beast, no matter how suave and "in love with" Drusilla/Harmony/Buffy he claims to be.

So, while I agree with the fact that Spike and Buffy cannot be in love when he is soulless, he chooses the journey (in large part for Buffy).

Lauryn Summers said:
In Season 7, Episode 5 "Selfless", Buffy and Xander are arguing about killing Anya and Buffy says, "I killed Angel! Do you even remember that? I would have given up everything I had to be with"”I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life, and I put a sword through his heart because I had to."

I take that as a declaration of her love to Angel and how it really is deep enough to "trump" the others (I was trying to put that more delicatly, but I really had no idea how to say it). Granted, one could argue that Spike isn't in "this life"...but from that quote, I always thought it meant that Buffy had one love and that was Angel.

I don't think Buffy ever *really* loved Spike, or fell in love with him. I think she loved him for changing and how he treated her (for the most part, naturally) but I don't think she was IN love with him ever.
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Buffy does love Angel. I believe a big part of her will love him passionately until the day she dies. However, Spike and Buffy do grow into love, at that point in the season"¦ five episodes in"¦ Buffy relates to Xander on the fact that she may have to kill Anya by telling him that she killed the thing that she loved most in the world. That does not mean that Buffy cannot, did not, and does not love Spike, as well.

But"¦ that doesn't mean I don't think Bangel are going to have beautiful little hell spawns of there own running around, someday.
 
I just rewatched Spike's sacrifice in Chosen. Honestly, it got me a little choked up. I gotta say... take your shippiness out of it for a second, and what do you think? Whether you like Bangel or Spuffy or Briley or even Batsu doesn't matter. In that moment, Spike was radiant and selfless and literally burning to do the right thing and save the world. He was effulgent, just like he always wanted to be/knew he could be. He was meeting his destiny as a champion. In that moment... he was beautiful. He was transcendent. Heck, in that moment, even I loved him, and I know he's not real.

Buffy is the only one (aside from Dru with her visions) who ever thought he had it in him. She was the only one who believed in him. She's the only one who saw that spark. She knew, even when the rest of the scoobies and many of the fans doubted, and she never gave up on him. When he dies closing the Hellmouth, those feelings are vindicated. Her faith in him is proven right. That has got to be a powerful motivator.

I can't watch that scene without believing Buffy because, honestly, it's just so darn poetic and moving and beautiful that I don't know how anyone could stand in front of him in that moment and, knowing what he once was, not love him for what he became. Had Angel been there, I think even Angel would have loved him (and not in their normal love/hate sibling rivalry way, either; in a great, big, awe-inspiring, swelling music, single tear sliding down the cheek kind of way). Spike had a beautiful, heroic, poetic soul and, in that moment, it was on display in all of its wonderful glory. Having seen that and felt that (when they held hands) and lived and saved the world because of it, I think Buffy would have had to have been crazy not to have loved him. Maybe it was too little and too late, but it was definitely love.

For all of his faults (and they are many), Spike was, in the end, worthy to be loved. He was always the vampire with the capacity to love. It is only fitting that, in the end, his sacrifice makes him more than a dirty, flawed thing. His sacrifice is the sort of thing about which people tell stories. Those stories become legend. Those legends become myth, inspiring religious fervor and amazement in millions. It's better than poetry; it's the sort of thing about which people write poetry in the hope of barely scratching the surface of its magnitude and meaning. Maybe I'm just getting all soppy about it, but man... it's just wonderful. I don't know how anyone, least of all Buffy, can watch that scene and not love Spike.

I feel kinda soppy like that about all of the characters who fought (and especially those who died) in Chosen, but the thing with Spike's soul... man, that was amazing.
 
B
Buffanator
Sometimes I just really LOVE you, & for a minute I think I might like to stalk you, but then I think, "Nah, she probably wouldn't appreciate that."
X
xgirlanachronism245x
Hell, I think I just fell in love with you... that was brillant... And I couldn't agree more.
palabravampiress said:
I just rewatched Spike's sacrifice in Chosen. Honestly, it got me a little choked up. I gotta say... take your shippiness out of it for a second, and what do you think? Whether you like Bangel or Spuffy or Briley or even Batsu doesn't matter. In that moment, Spike was radiant and selfless and literally burning to do the right thing and save the world. He was effulgent, just like he always wanted to be/knew he could be. He was meeting his destiny as a champion. In that moment... he was beautiful. He was transcendent. Heck, in that moment, even I loved him, and I know he's not real.

Buffy is the only one (aside from Dru with her visions) who ever thought he had it in him. She was the only one who believed in him. She's the only one who saw that spark. She knew, even when the rest of the scoobies and many of the fans doubted, and she never gave up on him. When he dies closing the Hellmouth, those feelings are vindicated. Her faith in him is proven right. That has got to be a powerful motivator.

I can't watch that scene without believing Buffy because, honestly, it's just so darn poetic and moving and beautiful that I don't know how anyone could stand in front of him in that moment and, knowing what he once was, not love him for what he became. Had Angel been there, I think even Angel would have loved him (and not in their normal love/hate sibling rivalry way, either; in a great, big, awe-inspiring, swelling music, single tear sliding down the cheek kind of way). Spike had a beautiful, heroic, poetic soul and, in that moment, it was on display in all of its wonderful glory. Having seen that and felt that (when they held hands) and lived and saved the world because of it, I think Buffy would have had to have been crazy not to have loved him. Maybe it was too little and too late, but it was definitely love.

For all of his faults (and they are many), Spike was, in the end, worthy to be loved. He was always the vampire with the capacity to love. It is only fitting that, in the end, his sacrifice makes him more than a dirty, flawed thing. His sacrifice is the sort of thing about which people tell stories. Those stories become legend. Those legends become myth, inspiring religious fervor and amazement in millions. It's better than poetry; it's the sort of thing about which people write poetry in the hope of barely scratching the surface of its magnitude and meaning. Maybe I'm just getting all soppy about it, but man... it's just wonderful. I don't know how anyone, least of all Buffy, can watch that scene and not love Spike.

I feel kinda soppy like that about all of the characters who fought (and especially those who died) in Chosen, but the thing with Spike's soul... man, that was amazing.
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Sometimes I just really LOVE you, & for a minute I think I might like to stalk you, but then I think, "Nah, she probably wouldn't appreciate that." 😀
 
I think Buffy loved him more than love but not fully in love with him. I believe if she might have accepted him fully into her life and let everyone know they were together, they're love would grow to her being in love with him.
 
Kana said:
The one thing that really annoys me is the infamous "Why does everything think I'm still in love with Spike" line. Many Spuffy fans use this as a life line when arguing about Buffy's feelings about Spike and to be honest, it makes me feel sorry for them.

The first time she admits she loves Spike and it's played out almost as a joke, without sentiment. Believe you me, I'm coming at this from a Spuffy perspective. She could hardly reconcile herself with having loving feelings for Spike and then it's suddenly accepted and is a offhand comment, virtually without sentiment? Bangelists would get more satisfaction from her line in Selfless about Buffy loving Angel more than she'll ever love anything in the world. If this line is legitimate, I feel sorry for hardcore shippers. Spuffy deserves more than that.
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Amen. I want to believe she loved Spike. I really do. Yet, I'm just not sure yet. I'm still thinking about it.
 
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