Question Did Buffy REALLY love Spike?

[PrincessBuffy16]

This is one of the first things about Season 8 that made me feel robbed. There were such dramatic changes that had just been made, people lost, new Slayers to be located, organized, and trained, but most of all, there HAD to have been a period of mourning and recognition for the friends, allies, and lovers who never made it out of the hellmouth. Without being morbid on the subject, I feel that the the events that took place immediately after the destruction of Sunnydale were vital to the ongoing story and would have been well worth reading about.

To make a confesion, when first time watching Chosen, even I went aww on the last Spuffy scene, because it was so well made, so simple but yet so beautiful. And when I've heard about the comics, I really expected we'll see how she was doing after going away from Sunnydale. I missed that part, and was really disappointed we never got to see it.

 

[soulunsung]

And how do you know I don't like Spike? Excuse me, but I do like him. Maybe I'm more a fan of him when he's a big bad, but that doesn't mean I hate him. Just because I'm not a Spuffy fan, doesn't mean I'm a Spike or Buffy hater.
And I didn't realized stating my own opinions is cruel or ofensive. I thought this boards is all about that.. I'm here for over a year now, and I've heard a lot of things here that I didn't liked about the things I love in BtVS, but people have different opinions, and I've learned I can't change them, and they can't change mine. Everyone have a right to their own opinion, and I haven't heard that an opinion can be ofensive :/

I wasn't implying that you didn't like Spike, my apologies if you felt as if that's what I was doing. I was just explaining that for the most part those of us who love the character (faults and all) would already know that he's a hero - a champion in our eyes.

I never said that you stating your opinions were cruel, however, I have felt as if a couple of things you've stated were offensive. I'm pretty sure the same could be said for me as well, on occasion. It doesn't mean that either one of us aren't entitled to our opinions, it just means that someone else might have taken offense to something we've said at one point in discussion. There's nothing wrong with that.

I have never once said that you or anyone else WASN'T entitled to share their opinion, in fact I've said the opossite - EVERYONE - is entitled to how they feel about or the way they view at something. So please don't make me feel like I'm a bad guy here.

It's not the opinion itself that's offensive, but the way in which it's said. But, I'm done now with this conversation because I feel like I've been made to feel as if I've done something horribly wrong when I haven't. All I've done is share my opinion like everyone else has and I can't change other's opinions - don't really want to either. Just want other people to understand where a lot of us Spuffies are coming from, that's all. Not much to ask.

I'm not offended, I just don't like when other people do, only because they can't accept someone elses opinion.

Also, I feel like this was about me and now I feel even worse. I had been liking this board and this thread, thought it was different. Now, I don't know how I feel.

No worries I'm not that crazy when it comes to spoilers but some people might be. BTW, love your banner!

I know and I am pretty crazy about spoilers and being spoiled, which is why I feel horrible that I didn't do enough digging to find out how to hide them first. But, now that I know, I will do so in the future. I just hope I haven't offended anyone, even though I'm now feeling like I can't really say what I really think or feel or express my opinion without anyone else taking it the wrong way or thinking that I can't accept another's opinion. That's not true, I've been having the time of my life in here discussing this show and this ship and these character's with you guys and now I feel all sad and outcast.

And thanks about the banner, Metho's made it for me last night. 🙂

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Also, I feel like this was about me and now I feel even worse. I had been liking this board and this thread, thought it was different. Now, I don't know how I feel.

No, it's not about you, it's about people in general.

 

[StarSlayer]

I know and I am pretty crazy about spoilers and being spoiled, which is why I feel horrible that I didn't do enough digging to find out how to hide them first. But, now that I know, I will do so in the future. I just hope I haven't offended anyone, even though I'm now feeling like I can't really say what I really think or feel or express my opinion without anyone else taking it the wrong way or thinking that I can't accept another's opinion. That's not true, I've been having the time of my life in here discussing this show and this ship and these character's with you guys and now I feel all sad and outcast.

Am I going to have to have to drag you out of the school basement now? Don't feel sad and outcast. 🙂 Sometimes, things can get misinterpreted (it happens to me too, which is why I'm a smiley nut, lol) but a lot of people around here are very respectful of others opinions. 🙂

 

[mayfever]

Christ on a bike, what have you been up to while I had dinner with my friend and watched Love... actually? It's Xmas people, where's the love? 😀

First of all, I'm kind of torn about the Death of the Author theory, because I think it's kind of extreme. Contemporary literary theory (and I'm not saying that they have the ultimate truth, just saying where the academia is standing these days) has btw ameliorated it somewhat - while the author doesn't have the ultimate truth, his opinion on his own creation does weigh more than the average critic or fan. Take Fuffy for example - people were boarding that 'ship long before Joss ever agreed that there was some URST between the two Slayers, and he only ever admitted it after rewatching some scenes in an order a Fuffy enthusiast had suggested to him. So while I'm all for "trust the tale, not the teller" because in a creative process a lot of things are done subconsciously, I do believe that Joss's interpretation of the characters and their actions holds more weight than most people's.

Second, of course Buffy was accepting the possibility that she might die when she went for the Turok-Han to save Spike. However, that girl is the Slayer and all her missions include a chance that she might not survive, and there is a clear difference between fighting a powerful enemy to save a friend and a suicide mission à  la "The Gift". I do believe that Dawn was the only person Buffy would have done that for, else she could have worn that piece of jewellery in "Chosen" herself so that Spike could live.

Third, something always genuinely puzzles me. I get why Spuffies believe that Buffy meant what she said when she said "I love you", and I also get why diehard Bangels are of the opposite conviction (and I'm kind of in the middle, despite being a diehard Bangel, meaning she loved him as a friend). Fanwank all you want... but I don't get why Spike would have said "No you don't" if he didn't mean it. He is a stunningly perceptive manpire (possibly the most perceptive character we find in the Buffyverse) and his observations about other characters are always spot-on, so I don't think he misread her. I don't think it was a "Promise me that you won't give up" I'm-perishing-in-the-North-Atlantic-while-my-girlfriend-is-snug-as-a-bug-in-a-rug-on-a-floating-door situation either... if it was, wouldn't it basically have translated to "Go on and live happily ever after with Angel"? Can you really see Spike saying something like that?

Help me out please?

 

[SupportOGal]

I think that by that moment, in Chosen, Buffy did love Spike in a way, but let's face it: it isn't the "I-can't-live-without-you-I'll-die-with-you" level. Heck, she was confused enough (while still certainly loving him as friend, confidant, and possibly more) that she wouldn't even commit to a relationship with him the day before.

In my opinion, Spike says "No you don't" to Buffy not to get her out of there, because him saying "I love you too..etc." wouldn't change anything. She would still leave, and there are a few reasons for this: a) She's the Slayer, and she's Buffy. For the first time in her life since being called, she's not going to carry the weight of the world alone and she really wants to live again, and b) Spike needs to do this, as part of his own personal journey of redemption - he gets to become a champion. That's why she doesn't wear the amulet and why she asks him to - he needs it. It's where he's been headed this whole time.

I think Spike says "No you don't" to Buffy to lighten the moment - to act the tough guy, the big bad. It's very in character for him to say something like that to prevent his last moment, his blaze of glory, from turning into a weepy soap opera moment. It's because he's a champion.

Really, if you think Buffy would have stayed down there and died with Spike, we must have been watching completely different shows! 😀

 

[prophecygrrl]

Christ on a bike, what have you been up to while I had dinner with my friend and watched Love... actually? It's Xmas people, where's the love? 😀

I love that movie. There is no shame in this. Gooey holiday movies are the best. Plus Emma Thompson and Alan Rickman are amaaazing. 😀

First of all, I'm kind of torn about the Death of the Author theory, because I think it's kind of extreme. Contemporary literary theory (and I'm not saying that they have the ultimate truth, just saying where the academia is standing these days) has btw ameliorated it somewhat - while the author doesn't have the ultimate truth, his opinion on his own creation does weigh more than the average critic or fan. Take Fuffy for example - people were boarding that 'ship long before Joss ever agreed that there was some URST between the two Slayers, and he only ever admitted it after rewatching some scenes in an order a Fuffy enthusiast had suggested to him. So while I'm all for "trust the tale, not the teller" because in a creative process a lot of things are done subconsciously, I do believe that Joss's interpretation of the characters and their actions holds more weight than most people's.

I'm pretty much the same. I mean, yes I think how the story reads is much more important that how it was intended to read, but I wouldn't discount the creator's opinion/intent entirely.

Third, something always genuinely puzzles me. I get why Spuffies believe that Buffy meant what she said when she said "I love you", and I also get why diehard Bangels are of the opposite conviction (and I'm kind of in the middle, despite being a diehard Bangel, meaning she loved him as a friend). Fanwank all you want... but I don't get why Spike would have said "No you don't" if he didn't mean it. He is a stunningly perceptive manpire (possibly the most perceptive character we find in the Buffyverse) and his observations about other characters are always spot-on, so I don't think he misread her. I don't think it was a "Promise me that you won't give up" I'm-perishing-in-the-North-Atlantic-while-my-girlfriend-is-snug-as-a-bug-in-a-rug-on-a-floating-door situation either... if it was, wouldn't it basically have translated to "Go on and live happily ever after with Angel"? Can you really see Spike saying something like that?

Help me out please?

I think it's entirely both plausible and reasonable that Spike would tell her that she doesn't love him, and that it doesn't negate Buffy's feelings. I agree Spike may be stunningly perceptive, but on so many occasions he's been dead wrong too.

And once gets the soul, Spike's flawed self-perception becomes very apparent. Very simply, he doesn't believe that he deserves the things he needs or wants, although most of us know that he's a hero in his own right. But he doesn't think he is worthy. Not of redemption, or being alive (as alive as an undead vampire can be), and certainly not Buffy's love. I mean, when she first gives him the amulet, he's really surprised. He even shrinks back from it after she tells him it's meant for a champion. He doesn't have that idea of self-worth in him, and I think that concept is necessary to be able to accept someone's love.

So yeah, I'm of the belief that he rejects her love because he just can't accept it is meant for him.

First off, the evidence of Buffy's love. When I watch that scene in Chosen, I see her looking around desperately as the cavern is crumbling, her trying to get Spike to leave with her ("No, you've done enough"), and that determination when she links their fingers together- and that just screams love to me. It's there. For me and most other Spuffies, anyway. Spike's "No, you don't" doesn't change that. Not for us. 🙂

I wouldn't say definitively that she was willing to stay with him when she has so much more to live for (Dawn, the Scoobies, the new Slayers, the world), but when that fire burns it is the most obvious metaphor for destruction (love, passion, intensity too, but at the very least fire will always be consuming) I've ever seen. She can't love him at that moment. She can't, not when love in their world means passion, intensity, and crumbling worlds, not our sanitized version of white picket fences and fat grandchildren. Spike denying her love makes a lot of sense to me, taking in account his feelings and the fact that their world is folding in on itself in that moment. It doesn't mean, however, that that love isn't there.

 

[mayfever]

I love that movie. There is no shame in this. Gooey holiday movies are the best. Plus Emma Thompson and Alan Rickman are amaaazing. 😀

Emma Thompson karma! That woman is absolutely INCREDIBLE, I love her to bits and pieces!

I think it's entirely both plausible and reasonable that Spike would tell her that she doesn't love him, and that it doesn't negate Buffy's feelings. I agree Spike may be stunningly perceptive, but on so many occasions he's been dead wrong too.

[/QUOTE]

sure, but as a going-out line? (As it was then planned, anyway). Doesn't really make sense from a narrative POV, I think.

First off, the evidence of Buffy's love. When I watch that scene in Chosen, I see her looking around desperately as the cavern is crumbling, her trying to get Spike to leave with her ("No, you've done enough"), and that determination when she links their fingers together- and that just screams love to me. It's there.

Yes it is. I'm not arguing.

 

[prophecygrrl]

sure, but as a going-out line? (As it was then planned, anyway). Doesn't really make sense from a narrative POV, I think.

I'll be honest, I would've liked a Han Solo and Princess Leia kinda deal.

BUFFY: "I love you."

SPIKE: "I know."

😀 But I'll take this exchange too. I think it's humble and it still makes sense, even if it's not all that satisfying to most Spuffies.

 

[InsaneMystic]

I'll be honest, I would've liked a Han Solo and Princess Leia kinda deal.

BUFFY: "I love you."

SPIKE: "I know."

Slightly off topic, but that's pretty much the best possible answer to "I love you" that there is in any kinda sitch, period. 😀

 

[soulunsung]

Am I going to have to have to drag you out of the school basement now? Don't feel sad and outcast. 🙂 Sometimes, things can get misinterpreted (it happens to me too, which is why I'm a smiley nut, lol) but a lot of people around here are very respectful of others opinions. 🙂

Nah, I'm okay now. It was just hard for a moment there, because I felt like I was really being picked on for daring to share an opinion that was a little different than someone else's. Most of the people I've come in contact with on here, have been really nice and considerate of other opinions. 🙂

 

[StarSlayer]

Christ on a bike, what have you been up to while I had dinner with my friend and watched Love... actually? It's Xmas people, where's the love? 😀

OT, but I LOVE that movie 😀

So while I'm all for "trust the tale, not the teller" because in a creative process a lot of things are done subconsciously, I do believe that Joss's interpretation of the characters and their actions holds more weight than most people's.

Agreed 🙂

Fanwank all you want... but I don't get why Spike would have said "No you don't" if he didn't mean it.

I'm gonna try and explain this in the best way I can. 🙂 Sometimes, it's not always the actual text that matters, but the sub-text behind it. This is how actors work. They study a script and find the true meaning behind these words. What is this scene really about? What are these characters really trying to say to each other? What are these characters actually feeling? And so on. I'm gonna really break down the scene now because it's the best way for me to explain my points, so bear with me. 🙂

SPIKE: Go on then.
BUFFY: No...
This simple "No" by Buffy expresses a lot. The sub-text I get is Buffy saying, "There's no way I'm leaving." She shakes her head and continues speaking.

BUFFY: You've done enough, you can still...
She's trying to come up with a reason for Spike to stop doing what he's doing and come with her.

SPIKE: No...
Spike's simple "No" says a lot too. His sub-text being, "You're wrong. There's still stuff I have to do." So, he continues.
SPIKE: You've beat them back. It's for me to do the clean-up.

Faith yells to Buffy to "Come on." Buffy looks at Faith, very worried. She's not ready to leave just yet. She's not ready to leave Spike. More boulders begin to fall. Time is running out. Faith quickly leaves. Spike notices and says, "Gotta move, lamb. I think it's fair to say school's out for bloody summer." Buffy's not budging though. The Hellmouth is literally collapsing around her, but she's not moving. Instead, she calls out to Spike again. What's it gonna take for Buffy to get out of here already, lol?

BUFFY: Spike
Again, she sounds worried.
SPIKE: I mean it! I gotta do this!
Spike's getting a little irritated now. He's gotta finish the job. He's gotta put his past behind him. He's gotta become the champion that Buffy believed he could be.

Buffy's facial expressions then say it all. She becomes very afraid and realizes Spike isn't going to leave and come with her. He's not only going to stay, but he's going to die. She looks at him, she looks at her champion as Spike's looks out at the Hellmouth. She then reaches her hand out slowly to grab Spike's hand and encloses her fingers around his. Spike does the same, but wait a minute. Spike then slowly looks at their hands. He's beginning to feel something. BOOM! Fire erupts and encircles both their hands. Spike then slowly glances up at Buffy with this look of shock on his face. Is this really happening? Is Buffy feeling what I'm feeling? The next shot is of Buffy. Her feelings are building up until she lets out a gasp. Yep, she's definitely feeling it too. 😉 Her eyes light up, not leaving Spike's eyes, and she smiles. Her eyes just bleeding love (yes, I'm aware that's a song, lol). The next shot is of Spike. He's still in like this state of shock, but is able to give her a little smile. He knows that she's feeling what he's feeling, and he can't believe it. Whatever they both felt for each other before was never this intense. There's only one thing that could cause such a powerful and deep feeling and that is love my friends. 🙂

All right, here comes the good stuff. 🙂 The next shot goes back to Buffy. She looks at Spike, and she actually looks nervous. She doesn't know how to say what she's about to say, but she has to say it because all these feelings have been building up to this moment. She finally says what many of us already knew, but Buffy had to get there in her own time. She says to Spike, "I love you," knowing that this could very well be the last thing she ever says to him. For me, Buffy simple line of saying "I love you," holds so much sub-text. I thank SMG for that. 🙂 The sub-text I get is Buffy saying, "I'm sorry for everything that happened between us in the past. I'm so proud of you and what you've become...a champion. I'm sorry it took me this long to realize it, but I love you. You needed to know that." She looks up to Spike with teary eyes, but smiles. There's no way she's lying. 🙂

Then, we get to the shot of Spike. I've already said that there's no question in my mind Spike felt what Buffy felt. And, by the looks of it, he didn't know how to handle it because he was in such shock. He then just heard the woman he loves finally admit her feelings. In response, he first lets out a sigh, not saying "Yeah right," but rather "She finally said it. I can't believe." However, he doesn't look away. He doesn't shake his head in disbelief. Instead, he keeps holding eye contact with Buffy. He takes a moment and says, "No, you don't." Like Buffy's "I love you," there's so much sub-text in this simple line. Spike doesn't literally mean "No, Buffy. You don't love me. We both know that. I don't care what we're both feeling right now, it's not love. I don't know what it is, but it can't possibly be that." Hehe...please. 😛

Instead, the sub-text I get when Spike says, "No, you don't" is "No, you can't. You can't love me because you need to keep living. You need to keep fighting and stay strong. I won't let you stay here and die with me." If Spike pulled a Han Solo and said, "I know," or said a cheesy "I love you too," I really believe Buffy would have stayed in the Hellmouth. Spike wasn't going to let that happen. He was also covering for his feelings, as Buffy use to do with her feelings for Spike. Buffy use to say the exact same thing to him, although she knew he loved her. So, it was line that related back to their past relationship, except it had a totally different meaning behind it now because both just felt what the other was feeling when the fire burst.

Spike then pauses for a brief moment and smiles at her. He also knows that this may very well be the last time sees Buffy. So, with their eyes still locked, he adds, "But, thanks for saying it." The sub-text I get from this line is "But, I know how you feel. I know you love me." Spike then seems to give a little nod, like "It's ok. It's going to be ok. I'll be okay, and you'll be okay without me."

The camera goes back to Buffy. As she looks at Spike, her eyes are full of tears and her lips quiver. She doesn't want this moment to end, she doesn't want to leave, she's not ready for Spike to not be here. But, she now knows she can't stay and the world still needs her. She also knows that Spike knows she loves him. If she thought for a second that Spike really didn't believe her when she said she loved him, she would have said something. But, she didn't have to because she knew he felt it, just as she felt it. Reality then comes back and wakes her up. The Hellmouth shakes, causing her to let go off Spike, but not really "let go." I can't help but think of "Titanic" now, lol. Spike tells her to go and she knows she has to now. As she leaves, Spike lets out a huge sigh of relief. Buffy will be okay now. The world be okay now. He's going to make sure of it. He wants to see how it ends.

I really apologize for the long post, but I sometimes don't know how else to explain my points. So, that's how I see the scene and I've seen it hundreds of times. Take it for what's worth. 🙂

 

[Marisa]

Starslayer you are so great! You said it perfectly in my eyes.
I agree with you just because he said "no you don't" does not mean he himself didn't believe it. You have to look at the scene and you did that.

---------- Post added at 11:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:33 PM ----------

We should ask Joss WHY he made Spike say "No you don`t. But thaks for saying it." 😀
If he hadn`t said anything after Buffy said she loved him, I may have had a totally different view...but I just don`t...

And I don`t think Spike said it just to get Buffy out of there.
Buffy would NEVER have stayed down there with Spike. She could never have done that to Dawn. And I think Spike knows that Dawn is everything for Buffy.

Even though I`m not a Spuffy fan, I like all of your comments and views about it. I do have my own opinions about it, but I`m just not good at talking for my own behalf. lol! 😀

Didn't he say somewhere that he didn't want to have to choose between Angel and Spike or something like that? I haven't watched interviews in what seems like years but yeah I may look into that now.

Man reading this whole thread very interesting opinions. Like I said earlier I agreed with starslayer but when watching chosen i get the hint that Spike said that because Buffy was not going to leave. That is what it looked like for a few minutes there like she did not want to leave Spike and giving her a moment probably would not have helped. I don't know when I watch it I see Spike trying to save her because he knows she may not leave and just die there, not on purpose but because everything else around didn't seem to matter for a few moments.

 

[GrrArghx]

All it boils down to is how we define love. And, there is NO right or wrong definition of it. So Joss saying Buffy loves Spike makes no difference, IMO, no matter what - even if all of us went by the notion that if he says it, it's 100% true because he wrote it.

He has his own views of love, just like I have mine, and that doesn't make me wrong or right. Nor does it make me in denial or ignoring facts or anything else some people in this thread have been accusing others of doing.

So, to address the original question, no, I don't think Buffy loved Spike in the way a lot of you are claiming. And it's not because I love B/A or because I don't like Spuffy; I think it's just because I define love in a different way than those of you who believe she did.

 

[StarSlayer]

So, to address the original question, no, I don't think Buffy loved Spike in the way a lot of you are claiming. And it's not because I love B/A or because I don't like Spuffy; I think it's just because I define love in a different way than those of you who believe she did.

Do you mind if I ask you how you define love? I know there's no right or wrong answer in that department, but I'm just curious. 🙂

 

[The Unspoken]

All it boils down to is how we define love. And, there is NO right or wrong definition of it. So Joss saying Buffy loves Spike makes no difference, IMO, no matter what - even if all of us went by the notion that if he says it, it's 100% true because he wrote it.

He has his own views of love, just like I have mine, and that doesn't make me wrong or right. Nor does it make me in denial or ignoring facts or anything else some people in this thread have been accusing others of doing.

So, to address the original question, no, I don't think Buffy loved Spike in the way a lot of you are claiming. And it's not because I love B/A or because I don't like Spuffy; I think it's just because I define love in a different way than those of you who believe she did.

The only definition of love that's relevant in this discussion is the one that the characters of Spike and Buffy adhere to. They are, after all, the ones in love - or at least, that's what's being debated here. Whether or not their love counts as love in your eyes doesn't matter, because it's only about whether or not the two of them feel love for each other.
So when Joss or any of us say that they were in love, it means they were in love by their own 'standards', not by Joss' or our own.

Your post gave me a little bit of a headache actually, lol.

 

[Flannen]

The only definition of love that's relevant in this discussion is the one that the characters of Spike and Buffy adhere to. They are, after all, the ones in love - or at least, that's what's being debated here. Whether or not their love counts as love in your eyes doesn't matter, because it's only about whether or not the two of them feel love for each other.
So when Joss or any of us say that they were in love, it means they were in love by their own 'standards', not by Joss' or our own.

Your post gave me a little bit of a headache actually, lol.

lol, then its headaches all round cos I'm trying to figure out yours too!

I really don't get how our individual ideals about love don't matter...Spike and Buffy aren't real thus we don't actually know what love they adhere to. It's completely down to interpretation and how you read the characters. How can they be in love by their own standards when those standards don't actually exist - the only way they do is exist in the eyes/mind of the viewer. Who says what Spike and Buffy's definition or beliefs about love are? They can't tell us whether they feel love for each other, and if they had have done, we wouldn't be having this discussion, so how can someone's personal ideals and beliefs NOT matter when actually its all anyone has to go on?

Hmm, now I've definitely given myself a headache...

 

[The Unspoken]

lol, then its headaches all round cos I'm trying to figure out yours too!

I really don't get how our individual ideals about love don't matter...Spike and Buffy aren't real thus we don't actually know what love they adhere to. It's completely down to interpretation and how you read the characters. How can they be in love by their own standards when those standards don't actually exist - the only way they do is exist in the eyes/mind of the viewer. Who says what Spike and Buffy's definition or beliefs about love are? They can't tell us whether they feel love for each other, and if they had have done, we wouldn't be having this discussion, so how can someone's personal ideals and beliefs NOT matter when actually its all anyone has to go on?

Hmm, now I've definitely given myself a headache...

Of course our own opinion about love matters - insofar as it helps us relate to the characters, i.e. it helps us understand their (definition of) love. Just like we can discern and describe the personalities of Buffy and Spike, we can do the same with how they define love - it is after all a part of their personality.

When you watch people falling in love on a TV show, it doesn't mean that you would've fallen in love if you were in their shoes. But you can still be convinced those people were really in love with each other. That's what I meant.
Another example would be in 'Something Blue', when Buffy and Willow are talking about how normal Riley is (or so they think) and she questions whether there can really be love without pain. You might have a different opinion about what constitutes a loving relationship, but that's besides the point.


But let's please not take this thing to a whole new meta-level. Unless someone can come up with a convincing argument.

 

[StarSlayer]

GrrArghx agrees: I don't really know how to explain it... sorry, lol.

Lol, that's okay. 🙂 Love's a funny thing. 😉

 

[Flannen]

Of course our own opinion about love matters - insofar as it helps us relate to the characters, i.e. it helps us understand their (definition of) love. Just like we can discern and describe the personalities of Buffy and Spike, we can do the same with how they define love - it is after all a part of their personality.

When you watch people falling in love on a TV show, it doesn't mean that you would've fallen in love if you were in their shoes. But you can still be convinced those people were really in love with each other. That's what I meant.
Another example would be in 'Something Blue', when Buffy and Willow are talking about how normal Riley is (or so they think) and she questions whether there can really be love without pain. You might have a different opinion about what constitutes a loving relationship, but that's besides the point.


But let's please not take this thing to a whole new meta-level. Unless someone can come up with a convincing argument.

Okay, I kind of see what you're saying a bit clearer. I'm still not sure about the bit in the middle but way too out of it to think about it properly right now.

As for the first bit, I agree that we can build up an understanding of their definition of love but that will differ from person to person because our interpretation and understanding of the characters is so varied. In which case, there is no conclusive definition of how Buffy and Spike viewed love. It is derived from personal interpretation of the characters thus our personal beliefs/definition of love matter more than anything. My interpretation of Spike and Buffy will dicate their 'standards' about love, surely?