Discussion of 5.22 "Not Fade Away" (WB-US) - Airing 5/19/04

Perhaps the story should have more clearly laid out the positive consequences of Angel and co. destroying the Black Thorn.


Does that include the possible destruction of a major metropolis?


"Most of the harm in the world is done by good people, and not by accident, lapse, or omission. It is the result of their deliberate actions, long perservered in, which they hold to be motivated by high ideals toward virtuous ends." - "The God of the Machine" by Isabel Paterson.
 
Nice quote and quite fitting may I add. But the one thing that needs to be said is who decides who is a good person and who isn't? I'm sure Saddam Hussein and Hitler and their followers thought themselves to be doers of good...What it basically comes down to is that good and bad are relative terms.
 
Cordelia said:
Nice quote and quite fitting may I add. But the one thing that needs to be said is who decides who is a good person and who isn't? I'm sure Saddam Hussein and Hitler and their followers thought themselves to be doers of good...What it basically comes down to is that good and bad are relative terms.
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Exactly. Which is why I have problems with Angel's decision. He had decided that certain people were either good and evil and acted upon it. And his decision may have affected a lot of innocents (if rumors of a post-apocalyptic L.A. for S6 is true).
 
LadyLavinia said:
"Most of the harm in the world is done by good people, and not by accident, lapse, or omission. It is the result of their deliberate actions, long perservered in, which they hold to be motivated by high ideals toward virtuous ends." - "The God of the Machine" by Isabel Paterson.
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I just love those quotes from some minor hack we seem to be called upon to embrace as some kind of canonical, all incompassing truth simply based on the fact they're quotes.

I've heard the same kind of thing as what appears in that quote, said about hospitals. I've heard it said more harm is done in hospitals as a result of unnecessary surgery, and such than is done by disease.

Even if we embrace this as fact, does that mean we should do away with hospitals? Should we stop going there to get broken bones mended?

Staying with the general disease and cure anology for a moment, consider cancer. There doesn't seem to be a cure at the moment. The disease will live and spread throughout the human populace in spite of the best efforts of medicians. If you are charged with the responsibility doing something about it, you do the best you can. You cut out what can be cut out. You use the best healing techniques your expertise offers you. From time to time you make mistakes, and the cure is worse than the disease. So what do you to do? Stop cutting. Stop looking for a cure. Personally, I hope not.

Angel and his crew find themselves in a similar position. They are charged with dealing with the unstoppable cancer of demon related evil in the host of humanity. They do what they can. Good for them. Sometimes they make mistakes. Too bad. Wish they wouldn't. Hope they don't do it again next time.

As far as Season 5 goes. Put me down as loving it. I could have lived without The Girl in Question, and there was some other stuff I was less than loving, but overall I loved it.

As far as Not Fade Away goes. I didn't object to the way it ended. I've seen open endings before - Dark Angel, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. I can live with them. Apparently some people can't.

Personally I don't think it detracted from the general magnificence of the Angel series one bit.
 
nerd4hire said:
I just love those quotes from some minor hack we seem to be called upon to embrace as some kind of canonical, all incompassing truth simply based on the fact they're quotes.

I've heard the same kind of thing as what appears in that quote, said about hospitals. I've heard it said more harm is done in hospitals as a result of unnecessary surgery, and such than is done by disease.

Even if we embrace this as fact, does that mean we should do away with hospitals? Should we stop going there to get broken bones mended?

Staying with the general disease and cure anology for a moment, consider cancer. There doesn't seem to be a cure at the moment. The disease will live and spread throughout the human populace in spite of the best efforts of medicians. If you are charged with the responsibility doing something about it, you do the best you can. You cut out what can be cut out. You use the best healing techniques your expertise offers you. From time to time you make mistakes, and the cure is worse than the disease. So what do you to do? Stop cutting. Stop looking for a cure. Personally, I hope not.

Angel and his crew find themselves in a similar position. They are charged with dealing with the unstoppable cancer of demon related evil in the host of humanity. They do what they can. Good for them. Sometimes they make mistakes. Too bad. Wish they wouldn't. Hope they don't do it again next time.

As far as Season 5 goes. Put me down as loving it. I could have lived without The Girl in Question, and there was some other stuff I was less than loving, but overall I loved it.

As far as Not Fade Away goes. I didn't object to the way it ended. I've seen open endings before - Dark Angel, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. I can live with them. Apparently some people can't.

Personally I don't think it detracted from the general magnificence of the Angel series one bit.
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It really bothers you, doesn't it, that some people might believe that Angel had done the wrong thing? Why? Why are you so willing to condone nearly everything he has done? I'm curious.


Angel and his crew find themselves in a similar position. They are charged with dealing with the unstoppable cancer of demon related evil in the host of humanity.


They are charged? By whom? The Powers to Be? Granted, TPTB see Angel as their "champion". But why does he have to do everything they want? Had it really occurred to Angel that attacking the Black Thorn Circle might lead to an apocalyptic L.A.? Have you considered that, considering the rumors that Season 6 would have been set in a post-apocalyptic L.A.?

You make the Fang Gang sound like a bunch of supernatural superheroes. Quite frankly, that idea strikes me as very unappealing.
 
Im not sure its "people" I count one person. Perhaps we should make a snazzy little poll. "Who all thinks Angel did wrong? " It'd be fun to see with the 1 vote in the yes column.

I've never encountered fans like these before. It's odd how fans of the show keep trying to put the show, actors, etc down. Interesting "fans" we got here on the BB. Meh. :flake:
 
ProphecyGirl said:
Im not sure its "people" I count one person. Perhaps we should make a snazzy little poll. "Who all thinks Angel did wrong? " It'd be fun to see with the 1 vote in the yes column.

I've never encountered fans like these before. It's odd how fans of the show keep trying to put the show, actors, etc down. Interesting "fans" we got here on the BB. Meh. :flake:
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Why can't we put down something that doesn't agree with us? Do we have to like everything we see?
 
HA! I never replied to this thread; I'm such a loser. I thought that I gave my veiws on the episode. . . and two minutes ago I was thinking "did I?" so I looked; and nope. lol.

Okay!

I'm already sad coming in to this episode. I'm sitting here thinking to myself; this just sucks. Fred and Cordy are no longer on Angel, and now, everyone's gonna be off of it. I'm waiting with anticipation to find out how many people die; and if someone gets to shanshu.

When the episode started, I was literally on the edge of my seat, and it never stopped being like that.

I'm gonna start off with one of the things that still stick in my mind; Angel signing away his shanshu for good. I was ready to yell "WHAT THE HELL" at my television screen because I was SO irritated. I mean; hey, I was still hoping somewhere in this episode he'd become human and go find Buffy, LOL. Nope. Didn't happen. Pfft.

I'm gonna talk about what I thought of each of the characters now:

Nina -- She was a TOTAL waste of time; I hated her. She was like, the person to end the confusion on the whole Buffy and Cordy subject, and when Angel just sent her away, you could tell he never loved her. It sucked. She was useless, and I was kinda mad she was in the last episode.

Lindsey -- I really liked his return in Season Five; and when he made a truce with Angel. . . I was thinking "YAY! good, Angel, good." But then. . . I turn around, and he's dead. Psssh. It made me more than a little pissed off.

Lorne -- I was surprised; he killed Lindsey. Lorne was big with the no violence thing, and I think that was why he just. . . left. Everything was ruining for the AI's, and noone was the way they used to be -- the way they should've been. Lorne gave up; and I'm not surprised.

Wesley -- Wesley, was just sad. He sorta lost his sweet guy hunch of life when Fred died; and when he was dying, you could see him slowly getting it back. When "Fred" hugged him and started to cry on him; I was seriously crying with them. I was upset Wesley died. And wasn't expecting it.

Connor -- I'm glad he got incorporated into this episode; in Season Five, I started to like him. And it was nice to see.

Harmony -- She never ceases to amaze me with her humer, and stupidity. She's just SO great.

Spike -- Gotta love him. "Someone's gonna betray me"; I love how he raises his hand. lol. And I love how when the dragons and demons were rushing for them, everyone was so calm about it.

Gunn -- Eeep, when he was bleeding and said he didn't have much more time to live; I honestly knew he died in that fight. It was a gut feeling, and it was pleasant. Hey! I love Gunn! Bring him back. Yeesh.

Anne -- It was cute how they put her on it. She was a great character, and it was good to see.

Angel -- You gotta love him; and in this episode, you could tell he knew it was the end - like Buffy did in Season Seven.

The end just pissed me off though; my friend and I literally jumped off the couch, and I gasped for dear life.

But, I liked the tadbit at the end; where they thanked Angel? It was SO sweet and it got me teared up again. You gotta love things like that.
 
an attempt to criticize diplomatically

ProphecyGirl said:
Im not sure its "people" I count one person. Perhaps we should make a snazzy little poll. "Who all thinks Angel did wrong? " It'd be fun to see with the 1 vote in the yes column.

I've never encountered fans like these before. It's odd how fans of the show keep trying to put the show, actors, etc down. Interesting "fans" we got here on the BB. Meh. :flake:
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The thing I find so odd about the people that are saying they hate Angel (I realize you're not part of that group, I'm just using your message as a jumping-off point) is the apparent venom that they have about the whole thing. I also find it rather amusing that they seem to think Joss and co. somehow owe them something. The way I see it, if there ever was any such obligation from Joss to the fans, it's long since ended now that the series is done. We all know Joss is not a fan of happy endings (just as The First is not a fan of easy deaths), so it should not be surprising that the fans don't necessarily get everything they want from the ending.

On another note, I find it odd that.. these certain people not to be named seem to think that defending the show means defending Angel's actions personally. A while ago, I made a thread asking the question "Was Angel Justified in Having Lorne Shoot Lindsey?". To me, it's sort of an open question as to whether or not what Angel did there with the Lindsey thing, and with the whole final confrontation thing was good or bad. Obviously, to some people this question is not so open.

Either way, it seemed clear to me (perhaps I'm the exception here) that the show writers wanted us to quesion Angel's actions, at least a little bit, because otherwise, why would they have had that dissention in the ranks (Lorne leaving) at the very end? What, just for the hell of it? No, unlike life, everything that happens in a story (a good story) happens for a reason.

For me, agreeing or not agreeing with what Angel did is at least somewhat separate from liking or not liking the series or episode. But then, maybe the anti-Angel people really hated the season and epsiode and are just using what Angel did as one example of why they hate it. I dont know. It's difficult to try to guess another person's motivations.

But this is a neat (frightening) smilie: 🙂 :chainsaw: 🙂
 
I don't hate Angel as a character and I certainly don't hate the show. 🙂 In fact I love the first four seasons of the show. I just hate S5 🙂.

I think it's because I'm a story arc person. S5, due to the WB and the fact that Whedon and others wanted to attract new views, attempted to reinvent Angel. I personally liked the show the way it was and didn't care for the reinvention, although I gave it a change for most of the season. I kept watching and didn't get really unhappy untill after You're Welcome because the next episode didn't even mention what had just happened. I'm not one for happy endings but I do like realism within whatever world-structure a writer envisions. I love the characters from Angel. I enjoyed the show until S5. That doesn't mean I can't be critical of the character's actions.
 
Yeah criticism's fine, but it would be nice if the critics were correct in their interperetation of the details of the text every once in a while.

It was a reality shift, not a memory wipe. The apocalypse of the SPs has been here for some time according to the text, and every character tells us the outcome is more or less inevitable. Angel didn't create the apocalypse. Fred was an active participant in the A-teams efforts, physically, and in the planning stage. Don't tell me Fred should have had a gun, and behaved more physically. I watched her kick demon butt.

But here's an even better one - the arcs. OK, we're told the WB put pressure on ME to create a series that was more a series of stand-alone eps, and ME just bent to their will like sheep. We're supposed to accept that interpretation, because that's what the Jordan Levins, and the S-5 critics tell us. But let's stop and think a sec.

I have no doubt that's what the WB wanted, but did they get it? Were there Arcs? Yes there were. They began to show themselves clearly about the time Lindsey returned, and became stronger as the S-5 storyline progressed from there.

Were the Arcs weaker than seasons past? I don't think so. I don't think there were even more stand-alones in S-5, than there were in seasons past. The truth is the season of stand-alones just didn't happen. The idea of it is just another misinformation campaign from the spin doctors and the critics with personal agendas.
 
I know there's a lot of WB hatred floating around here, but you should be lucky that you even got to S5. There were rumors of cancellations for a long time. With all the time shifts and regulations, it was easy to see that there were obvious problems. Most probably because the WB compared Angel to Buffy because Buffy became a phenomenon. Angel never even got close to attaining that kind of status.

As for Not Fade Away, I think it was a good episode, but it wasn't great. Even though Joss stated that it would have ended regardless if S6 had been picked up, the plot felt so rushed. Just like Buffy S7. Its odd how on the last episodes of both shows, Buffy & Angel decided to take the fight to the battleground, instead of waiting around like they always do.

And, never thought I was going to say this but... I agree with LadyLavinia. The Fang took too big of a risk fighting the army of demons sent by the Senior Partners. L.A. probably would be post-apocalyptic and they didn't have the advantages that the Scooby Gang had. Plus Sunnydale was deserted not to mention an army of super powered girls. Did the Fang Gang start something they couldn't stop? Yep.

Though I did love the scene between Wesley/Illyria/Fred. The Fred/Illyria scenes during S5 were amazing, the best out of all the scenes in my opinion.

Not Fade Away may have been the best Angel finale, but it was no "The Gift"
 
Slayer said:
I know there's a lot of WB hatred floating around here, but you should be lucky that you even got to S5. There were rumors of cancellations for a long time. With all the time shifts and regulations, it was easy to see that there were obvious problems.
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The WB was lucky to get another season of Angel ! Have you seen how the ratings have plummeted on Wednesday night since Angel left?

The apocalypse was already there. It was progressing towards an inevitable conclusion. Angel said they couldn't stop it. What...you think when the Senior Partners had everything ready to go, they were going to line everybody up for kisses?
 
Hitome said:
I don't hate Angel as a character and I certainly don't hate the show. 🙂 In fact I love the first four seasons of the show. I just hate S5 🙂.

I think it's because I'm a story arc person. S5, due to the WB and the fact that Whedon and others wanted to attract new views, attempted to reinvent Angel. I personally liked the show the way it was and didn't care for the reinvention, although I gave it a change for most of the season. I kept watching and didn't get really unhappy untill after You're Welcome because the next episode didn't even mention what had just happened. I'm not one for happy endings but I do like realism within whatever world-structure a writer envisions. I love the characters from Angel. I enjoyed the show until S5. That doesn't mean I can't be critical of the character's actions.
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Fair enough and well said. I mean it's not like you're somehow required to explain yourself to us fellow strangers on the list, but OTOH, it's nice to understand where people are coming from. 🙂

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Slayer said:
I know there's a lot of WB hatred floating around here, but you should be lucky that you even got to S5.
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Exactly. I was actually a little surprised when season five got the go-ahead, I figured they'd get axed at the end of season four.

Hitome said:
The Fang took too big of a risk fighting the army of demons sent by the Senior Partners. L.A. probably would be post-apocalyptic [emphasis mine]
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Interesting choice of words. I don't really want to try to defend Angel's actions, but it's fun to play "Angel's [read Devil's 😉] Advocate". Angel might say that it's better to have one city get apocolypsed rather than the whole world. Of course, according to what was said, Angel and co. won't have actually prevented the True Apocolypse, just slowed it down, so that weakens that argument a lot. Anyone else wanna try? 🙂

Slayer said:
Though I did love the scene between Wesley/Illyria/Fred. The Fred/Illyria scenes during S5 were amazing, the best out of all the scenes in my opinion.
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Yeah, they were great. 🙂 I like all the stuff about humans being unable to face up to dark truths. (Example: fans unwilling to face up to the notion that Angel may have goofed up with the kill-the-Black-Thorn plan.)

Slayer said:
Not Fade Away may have been the best Angel finale, but it was no "The Gift"
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IMHO season five Buffy had the best overall season story arc of any of the seasons of Buffy or Angel. (Hitome, what do you think? yes? no? non-sequitor-cow-reference?)

The way I see it, the Buffy series proper ended with that episode. Seasons six and seven are still canon, but they're a different TV show. Like: "Buffy: the After Years" or something. 🙂
 
Spuffy57 said:
i loved that episode! I hated the "Thank You" from the WB at the end!
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well i watched the last 2 angel eps from a internet download as they were not out in the UK yet..

i did not even get the thank you message..... bummer


out of all the buffyverse i think the best finale was the gift
It had a major impact feel to it and when i was watching it i was so shocked....... i think in a way thats what i wanted to feel like at the end of buffy and angel......
but i felt dissapointed in a way.......

but then thats life.... i just really wanted to know what was gonna heppen
 
richarrd said:
well i watched the last 2 angel eps from a internet download as they were not out in the UK yet..

i did not even get the thank you message..... bummer
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I live in the U.S., but for various reasons (no cable, bad reception), I also watched Buffy and Angel by Internet download so I also didn't get to see the "Thank you" message.

richarrd said:
out of all the buffyverse i think the best finale was the gift
It had a major impact feel to it and when i was watching it i was so shocked....... i think in a way thats what i wanted to feel like at the end of buffy and angel......
but i felt dissapointed in a way.......

but then thats life.... i just really wanted to know what was gonna heppen
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Guess we're all in agreement that The Gift had the best ending. 🙂

--------(warning: I move off topic here)---------

Disapointed? I dunno. I guess I could feel that way except that I intentionally try to prevent my expectation level from rising too high. 🙂 So, when you go into an episode or movie not expecting to see anything spectacular, you're less likely to come away feeling disapointed.

Some of the movies that I've seen and really loved seemed so great to me because the movie was able to completely surprise me, and this would not have been possible if I'd been paying attention to the huge hype-train leading up to the release of the movie. Specific examples: T2 (I knew Arnold was the good guy, but that's basically all), The Crow (I went into this having absolutely no idea what it was about). True, these movies are really good, but if I'd been soaking up all the ads and hype that led up to these movies, they never would have been able to match up to the expectations set up. And that would have been unfortunate because they're really good movies.
 
WyrdDemonHunter said:
--------(warning: I move off topic here)---------

Disapointed? I dunno. I guess I could feel that way except that I intentionally try to prevent my expectation level from rising too high. 🙂 So, when you go into an episode or movie not expecting to see anything spectacular, you're less likely to come away feeling disapointed.

Some of the movies that I've seen and really loved seemed so great to me because the movie was able to completely surprise me, and this would not have been possible if I'd been paying attention to the huge hype-train leading up to the release of the movie. Specific examples: T2 (I knew Arnold was the good guy, but that's basically all), The Crow (I went into this having absolutely no idea what it was about). True, these movies are really good, but if I'd been soaking up all the ads and hype that led up to these movies, they never would have been able to match up to the expectations set up. And that would have been unfortunate because they're really good movies.
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I dont think i did hype my self up for it......
i dont watch any trailers or read any spoilers... i axctually watched thewhole season 6 and 7 of buffy from internet downloads due to them not being out in the uk but they was in the us.
i did buy them on boxset like after 8 months when they were finally released over here.

I just...... ooo i dont know..... i thought that with the rushed ending that buffy did have in a way... when i mean rushed i mean joss clearly wanted to do more with the storyline but couldn't , i thought he would try and wrap it all up with angel..... or maybe that is what i was hoping.......
since joss verse has ended.....
I would really like another tv series based on the same sort of thing... i.e. vampires and so on...... but with the gore of blade 2 and the action ofbuffy and blade 2...but the intense emotions like buffy had........

I always thought buffy had more intense feeling then angel....
 
richarrd said:
I just...... ooo i dont know..... i thought that with the rushed ending that buffy did have in a way... when i mean rushed i mean joss clearly wanted to do more with the storyline but couldn't , i thought he would try and wrap it all up with angel..... or maybe that is what i was hoping.......
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Yeah, I agree BtVS season seven was rushed, what with Caleb not being introduced until close to the very end and all. I also feel Angel season five was somewhat rushed, or at least it could have worked better if it hadn't been long-term-story-arc crippled. Exactly who made that decision again and why?

richarrd said:
since joss verse has ended.....
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I really don't see it as having "ended", I see it as having gone off the air. "ended" would be if the final, Ultimate Apocolypse occured and the Earth got pulled into a plane of (a) Hell or something. There may still be the comic book. And even if there isn't I'm sure there's gobs o' novels. I know many have already been made. (I'm talking about novels that aren't retellings of episodes.)

richarrd said:
I would really like another tv series based on the same sort of thing... i.e. vampires and so on...... but with the gore of blade 2 and the action ofbuffy and blade 2...but the intense emotions like buffy had........

I always thought buffy had more intense feeling then angel....
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So basically, a vampire-themed soap opera, but with more gore? I'm not sure if there's anything out there that fits the bill. hmmm... I haven't looked into it yet, and I don't know if it's your sort of thing, but there is an anime named "Vampire Miyu". It looks like there's only four episodes though. 🙁

There's also Interview With The Vampire. It's only one movie of course... I don't know if it would be quite gory enough for you, but there are some really great vampire-murders-someone-with-style scenes. 😀 (Note: Speaking of Ann Rice, her influence on the Jossverse can be felt in most of the period scenes in Buffy or Angel. That is to say, while they did not "steal" from Mrs. Rice as such, her characters and themes surely must have been part of the inspiration for some of the events that happened to Angel and Spike back in the past.) (But whatever you do, do not watch Queen of the Damned. It's appallingly bad, IMHO.

Oh, and Bram Stoker's Dracula is really good. (Although, now as I'm looking through the IMDb comments, I gather it's really a qiute inaccurate interpretation of the book, so maybe we shouldn't have the "Bram Stoker's" bit in front. Oh well. Ignorance is bliss, and I like it. 🙂 ) Haven't seen any other versions of the old classic, and I'm not sure I'd want to. (Although now that I know the movie I've seen might not be too close to the book, perhaps I should endevor to read it sometime. 🙂 )

Lessie... vamp stories with emotion and gore... well that's all I can think of right now, but I'm sure there must be more out there. Really, there should be quite a few out there because vampires are (often) all about manipulation, control, mental domination, and brutally killing people, but with style. There's often some places in there for interesting emotional exchanges to occur.

richarrd said:
I always thought buffy had more intense feeling then angel....
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Perhaps. Personally, I always saw Buffy as taking me through a wider spectrum of emotions. I see BtVS as a rainbow of emotions and Angel as a murky mix of many different shades of dark colors... greys, browns, and blacks all smudged together.

I like both shows, but BtVS felt more dynamic because it could take you both down and up. 🙂

(note: "then" and "than" are not synonyms. 😉 )
 
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