Discussion of 8.12 "Wolves at the Gate Part 1" - Released 03/05/07 (Dark Horse)

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Actually, in the original Dracula, he grew younger as he fed. Jonathan Harker first notes this when he finds Dracula sleeping in his coffin in the depths of the castle. The implication is that he'd drained the locals of so much vitality that they no longer did more than simply keep him alive (or that they were so wary of him that he was finding it hard to find victims, or both.)



No. She had three or four thin strands of hair in tight braids. They're visible lying against her pillow in both these images.

 

[nerd4hire]

Good eagle eyes on the braids Rowan.

On the Dracula thing...so that's from the Bram Stoker book right? But from the Coppola movie it still appears the real Dracula is an old monster at the end right, or did I miss something there as well? I do believe the implication is pretty clear in Antique the real Dracula is old in actual appearance.

Spoiler

Actually we also know Buffyverse Dracula is an old man from the preview of # 13, don't we?

Spoiler Preview # 13

 

[Rowan Hawthorn]

On the Dracula thing...so that's from the Bram Stoker book right? But from the Coppola movie it still appears the real Dracula is an old monster at the end right, or did I miss something there as well? I do believe the implication is pretty clear in Antique the real Dracula is old in actual appearance.

Right, what I posted is from the original novel. For all its P.R., the Coppola movie diverged from the novel almost as much as any of its predecessors did. And in "Antiques", it does indeed appear to be a glamour rather than revitalization as in the original novel.

 

[nerd4hire]

I know Goddard's a movie geek, but I wonder if he's even read the book. I know I haven't. I alway's just assumed the two were pretty close. I do believe Drew borrowed (homaged?) a bit from the Coppola flic though.

 

[Rowan Hawthorn]

The novel is definitely worth reading, although it's obviously dated, and can be tough wading through due to the format (it's mostly written as a series of journal entries and letters by the various characters.)

 

[Blondie Bear]

Okay, I just got the comic and read it last night, and now I'm in a funk.

I heartily dislike the Buffy-Satsu thing. It feels forced and contrived and completely outside of Buffy's character, especially with that speech in the last issue. The only way I see it fitting into Buffy's character at all is that she's lonely, misses the sex, and finds Satsu convenient--just like she was lonely and found Spike convenient in S6. And I would have thought that S6 would have taught Buffy better about using people like that.

And at least when Willow started "experimenting" with a woman, we had warning signs. This came out of absolutely nowhere--it seemed pretty obvious to ME at least that although Satsu was in love with Buffy, Buffy had always been strictly heterosexual. NEVER in the ENTIRETY of the series did anyone HINT that Buffy might even be CURIOUS. And then BLAMMO, there she is in bed with Satsu.

I know it's weird, but I feel somewhat betrayed and very disappointed.

The rest of the comic was great, though. I liked Andrew and his Superman thing, Xander and Renee finally taking another step toward being together, and Dracula's reappearance.

 

[Rowan Hawthorn]

And at least when Willow started "experimenting" with a woman, we had warning signs. This came out of absolutely nowhere--it seemed pretty obvious to ME at least that although Satsu was in love with Buffy, Buffy had always been strictly heterosexual. NEVER in the ENTIRETY of the series did anyone HINT that Buffy might even be CURIOUS.

Anyone who didn't see the subtext in Buffy & Faith's relationship just wasn't looking. It was way less subtle than any hints we'd gotten for Willow prior to "Doppelgängland" - or even after "Doppelgängland", for that matter, right up until Willow's little "Oh, my..." moment in "Hush". And this has been set up right from Buffy's "Sleeping Beauty" moment. It doesn't necessarily mean that Buffy's gonna suddenly discover that she's gay or even bi, but it's not out of nowhere, either.

Some things I'm curious about are:

When Buffy was under Amy's spell, Willow knew someone in the room was in love with Buffy, and she was careful to respect their feelings; but, did she know who it was? I mean, did she hear them thinking (we know she can if she wants to,) or did she just tune in to the emotions in the room? And Willow's hurt, but is that because her best friend didn't talk to her (they should all be used to that by now, because all of them have that fault, but when Willow bit the bullet and came out to Buffy, she didn't really have to at the time - she could have sidestepped the issue. Of course, it still would have come out soon thereafter, but still...) or because she actually harbors some feelings for Buffy (you could make a pretty good case for Willow having a bit of a crush on Buffy even when she might not have been aware of it herself,) or simply because, as she said once before, "I have a problem with Faith sharing my people"? (I think you could fairly replace "Faith" with pretty much anyone's name; I love Willow, but she does have issues...)

I don't think that it would necessarily have been a mistake for Buffy to sleep with Satsu, except that Satsu is under her command. So, there are going to be problems, no matter how it works out otherwise. Add to that the fact that Buffy is embarrassed (not so much that it was Satsu, but just because it's new, and they got caught at an extremely vulnerable time,) Satsu is embarrassed and hurt (enough to be the "traitor" that everyone's looking for? I hope not.) the entire Keystone Kops crew that busted in on them is embarrassed, and it's problems all around. So, now might be a good time to shake the BHC with a rousing chorus of "Where Do We Go From Here?"

We know how the new vamps managed to slip by Xander and Renee: they came in animal form and mist. Willow was preoccupied when the one came as mist to attack her. But how did they manage to bypass the mystical wards on the castle? Maybe the mole is one of the castle's mystics instead of a Slayer.

Speaking of Willow, that was a helluva fall she took. The only way I could see her surviving that is by putting up a shield around herself, which then raises another question: exactly how did Kumiko manage to "bring her down"? Willow isn't physically all that strong, but in "Wrecked", she flash-fried a demon in the blink of an eye - don't think she'd have much trouble doing the same to a vampire. Of course, she was caught by surprise, which could have caused her to lose the concentration necessary to stay airborne, but then, she did survive falling through the roof of Buffy's bedroom.

Thoughts?

 

[Blondie Bear]

Anyone who didn't see the subtext in Buffy & Faith's relationship just wasn't looking. It was way less subtle than any hints we'd gotten for Willow prior to "Doppelgängland" - or even after "Doppelgängland", for that matter, right up until Willow's little "Oh, my..." moment in "Hush". And this has been set up right from Buffy's "Sleeping Beauty" moment. It doesn't necessarily mean that Buffy's gonna suddenly discover that she's gay or even bi, but it's not out of nowhere, either.

I saw tons of subtext . . . on FAITH'S side. I never saw reciprocity on Buffy's. The closest it came was the whole "Really, we're just good friends" thing, but I saw that the same way I saw Buffy teasing Angel about having a "date" with her father . . . and I very heartily doubt that she has an Elektra Complex. And no, I don't think that Buffy will just up and turn gay/bi (if she does, it will COMPLETELY betray the integrity of the character and I will probably quit reading altogether), but I dislike the lack of foreshadowing and the lack of explanation in the character as already developed.

 

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I saw tons of subtext . . . on FAITH'S side. I never saw reciprocity on Buffy's.

And yet, Buffy kept being drawn by Faith's "seduction".

And no, I don't think that Buffy will just up and turn gay/bi (if she does, it will COMPLETELY betray the integrity of the character

?? I don't particularly care one way or the other, but I'm at a complete loss to understand why people think this.

and I will probably quit reading altogether),

Oh, jeez...

but I dislike the lack of foreshadowing and the lack of explanation in the character as already developed.

I don't really see any particular lack of foreshadowing - especially this season - and we haven't gotten far enough along in the story to expect any more explanation than we already have seen, but I also don't get why everything has to be "foreshadowed" as such. Going back to Willow, there were exactly the same comments when she came out, and when she turned to doing Bad Things. And yet, in Real Life, I'm constantly hearing:

"I never thought s/he'd 'turn gay'."
"I never thought s/he'd ever have a drug problem."
"I can't believe s/he'd ever kill anybody."

Sometimes things happen in the real world without a lot of forewarning, and I personally don't subscribe to the idea that everything that happens in fiction should be led up to so that you see it coming a mile away. That's usually called "predictable," "formulaic," or just plain "bad writing." I do expect to have most of the important issues tied up at some point, though.

 

[Blondie Bear]

This isn't the Real World, though. This is fiction. In fiction, readers expect a certain amount of warning for things like this (unless you're reading a thriller or mystery). In fiction, there is a thing known as "in character," in which characters have a certain set of morals and actions that do not change without reason or warning. In fiction, we are supposed to know as much about the character as possible. In Real Life, this isn't possible, but in both, there are ALWAYS reasons for what people do. Perhaps we shouldn't see it coming a MILE away, but there should at least be subtle clues so that we can look back and go "Oh, yeah. . ." like when Spike got his soul instead of a chipectomy. If Joss is going to step so far out of basic writing conventions, then yes, I will probably quit reading this just like I'd quit reading any piece of literature that violates such conventions.

As for Faith's "seduction," I saw Buffy giving in to the darkness and power that were ALREADY IN HER, not anything sexual coming from Faith.

 

[TabulaRasa]

I would never quit reading if Buffy ended up with a girl, but I don't think it would work. Which is why it wont happen! So no worries all. I had a hard time with it, still am, but it's not that big of a deal I guess. I am only having a hard time because I'm jealous, HAHAHAHA, not but seriously, it's not as bad as I thought.

I still believe Buffy's heart belongs to Angel and she will be with either him or Spike one day, prob Angel.

 

[nerd4hire]

Experimenting Buffy I can live with, but Gay Buffy would be too much of a challenge. It would cheapen all her previous romantic tragedies. You'd have to look at them all in a different context. She'd become a different character. And no it wouldn't feel like the same thing as gay Willow. I can make make guesses on why, but it just wouldn't.

I'd have a bigger problem with experimenting Faith. She seems too confident in her sexuality. She knows who she is, and what she wants. I wouldn't be surprised with Faith if it was a case of been there, done that, moved on. Right now though she appears to know who she is, and what she wants as far as the sex is concerned. Buffy has always been a little romantically confused, and open minded to the gay experience, so I can see her checking out one particularly interesting situation under the right conditions.

I wonder though, does the whole Buffyverse now open up to the idea of experimentation. What's this weird attraction Dracula has for Xander? Will a girl on girl experiment now become attractive to Dawn, who always seems to be following in the footsteps of big sis?

 

[Kean]

I'm with Blondie Bear. This whole thing seems staged, false and contrived. I just don't buy it. They say Buffy is experimenting, fine, but I don't believe she would ever choose to do that with someone under her charge, male or female. It just isn't Buffy. I honestly feel like it cheapens the show a little, like we're waiting to see which character is next to 'experiment'.

 

[nerd4hire]

I kind of have a problem with that one too, just as I did with the Willow/Kennedy thing, but they have made it clear from the beginning Buffy has some kind of attraction to Satsu, and you don't get to pick who you're attracted to. Then there were the events of last issue leading into this one, the "hungry or horny after a slay" thing - all these mitigating factors.

 

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Will a girl on girl experiment now become attractive to Dawn, who always seems to be following in the footsteps of big sis?

With Dawn, I don't think it's big sis whose footsteps she'd more likely follow in that direction. She was ecstatic when Willow & Tara got back together; now, granted, that was because they were sort of surrogate mothers to her, but it also means she didn't have any problems with them being together in the first place, and never exhibited any previously, either.

 

[Kean]

Sorry, I just don't get this "cheapens" deal at all. As for Satsu being under Buffy's command, I don't know how anyone missed that, since it's one of the biggest problems people have been having with this - and, IMO, about the only valid one so far

Well clearly people haven't missed it if they are discussing it in the forum. When you say you don't get how it 'cheapens' it what exactly do you mean? To me it cheapens the show because it feels like this whole thing was only done for publicity not becuase it was something the character would do.

 

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Well clearly people haven't missed it if they are discussing it in the forum.

Here's what I was referring to:

Blondie Bear agrees: Yay, Kean! Good point about Satsu being under her charge, too; I hadn't thought of that angle.

Clearly, some people missed it.

When you say you don't get how it 'cheapens' it what exactly do you mean? To me it cheapens the show because it feels like this whole thing was only done for publicity not becuase it was something the character would do.

Sorry, my fault - I thought you were meant that last. I agree, if it was done just for publicity, it's a crap idea - just like all the fanfics where every single character turns out to be gay. But I really don't think that it was done for that reason; not to say that Dark Horse didn't maybe have that in mind when they advertised it, just that the story wasn't, IMO, written that way just to bump up sales. Nothing in Willow & Tara's story was ever done that way, nor in Buffy's - everything was done with an eye to the story, and where it took the characters. Why would we just automatically assume this is any different?

 

[nerd4hire]

I wonder if people who wait to read the story in the TPB are going to be more warm to the idea of Buffy experimenting, because of the way 8.11 sets it up. It won't be quite so out of nowhere.

 

[TabulaRasa]

Also think about this, how would we be reacting if it had been Faith that Buffy ended up in bed with? Even if it was a one time thing? Would we all be saying "FINALLY!" or would we be acting the same? So, we need to look at it from that point of view also. If it would have been ok with Faith, why not with Satsu?
There is of course the factor that Buffy and Faith seem to have some real chemistry. We haven't had enough time for Buffy and Satsu where chemistry is concerned. Atleast I don't think so.

 

[Kean]

Sorry, my fault - I thought you were meant that last. I agree, if it was done just for publicity, it's a crap idea - just like all the fanfics where every single character turns out to be gay. But I really don't think that it was done for that reason; not to say that Dark Horse didn't maybe have that in mind when they advertised it, just that the story wasn't, IMO, written that way just to bump up sales. Nothing in Willow & Tara's story was ever done that way, nor in Buffy's - everything was done with an eye to the story, and where it took the characters. Why would we just automatically assume this is any different?

For me the Tara and Willow romance seemed like a natual progression of their relationship, it made sense. Buffy and Satsu don't in my honest opinion. Sure they're were undertones with Faith but that was 5 years ago and with FAITH. This is Buffy and Satsu, up until this issue any feelings were one sided and not dealt with in any depth at all, and them bam! its pantypolooza! That's why I don't buy it, in every relationship in the Buffyverse we have been given signs, hints o honking sirens. I really don't feel we have been given that with Buffy and Satsu.