Discussion of 8.14 "Wolves at the Gate Part 3" - Releasesd 5/07/08 (Dark Horse)

[Blondie Bear]

I guess I have little to no sympathy for an undead, soulless thing. If he were a human in our world, he'd have been locked up for life long ago, if not given the death penalty. I respect your opinion, but I really don't see a problem.

 

[Joyce Summers]

But you can't deny that killing a defenceless prisoner is a little bit wrong.

A vampire is never defenceless. Even Spike said in Fool for Love when he says a Slayer has always got to be prepared with a weapon. He vamps out and says 'I've already got mine'. Vampires are never defenceless (Except in the case of Spike when he got chipped by The Initiative).

Besides just because she'd successfully questioned him doesn't give him right to go free. Letting him free would have meant hundreds of innocent people killed by his hand/fangs. Buffy knows she can't let him go because of all the evil things he would do. Besides if the boot were on the other foot and a vampire had successfully questioned Buffy (Not likely but still) do you think they'd just let her go? Not of the likely.

 

[sosa lola]

So she should just leave him to kill innocent humans? We all saw that he wanted to kill Renee, Buffy can't chance that happening with a real helpless girl.

 

[CharmedSlayer85]

Carolina's Grasp seemed to be able to hold him pretty well.

But you can't deny that killing a defenceless prisoner is a little bit wrong.

Have you forgotten that this is a vampire? And not a vampire with a soul or a vampire with a chip. And the rules are pretty clear, Buffy the VAMPIRE SLAYER and she captured herself a vampire. So what if she got the information she needed he's still a vampire and needed to be slayed. It's not like he was a Japanese version of Willy the Snitch or that Lizardy Demon that Angel used to basically torture in Season Two, and let's not forgot this vampire led them into a trap.

 

[nerd4hire]

That's the problem with analogies. They only capture part of the truth. Saying the vamp is like a POW only serves to clarify that part of it. One might also say dealing with them is like dealing with a pit bull attack. Once you've got one, you know attacks children what do you do with it? Not too many people seem to object to putting them down. If that pit bull infected the child with a disease, and you could use it to get information on the disease, would you still put it down?

 

[Clem Rocks]

Lizardy Demon that Angel used to basically torture in Season Two

Merl? He was cool D=

 

[white avenger]

Buffy has killed countless vampires either just after or even DURING their initial resurrection. Arguably, those vampires could be considered innocent, since they haven't had time to kill anyone yet, but I don't believe that anyone condemns her for those actions. She has also killed vampires as they slept or were just awakening for their night's hunt.Incinerating this vamp is no different from that. She is killing someone who she knows is an evil destructive murdering fiend. her actions were perfectly in line with her calling. She isn't called a vampire SLAYER just because it has a cool sound to it. Killing vampires, in any way possible and in any location, is what she does. Angel, Spike, and Dracula were the only exceptions, and each of them was an extenuating circumstance.

 

[Blondie Bear]

After all, vampires aren't people. They're monsters. True, there have been exceptions, but overall, as a species, they need to be eliminated. Unlike, say, sharks, they have no redeeming value to the ecosystem or humanity. They're parasites, and parasites need to be killed.

 

[Five]

I finally got it!

It was really great. The end was very sad. I kinda agree with the people who said it was becoming a bit lame to kill off characters just for fun or so it appears - but where I agree even more, is that it keeps the whole thing in "reality"... I mean, come on. Xander never died and that's a shocker, but some have to die so it's credible. Renee dying was sure sad (but is she gonna stay dead?); poor Xander: first Anya dies during the big battle, now Renee, the girl he dates just after... Poor thing. HEY! I see noone commented on the really, really saddened face of Drac when Xand kissed Renee, hehe. Drac just plainly loves Xand.

I really liked it when Will teleported Dawn into the city. It was a real "wow" Buffy moment, just like in the show. I didn't enjoy that she destroyed the buildings, though. I mean, there had to be people in !!

Buffy seemed pretty ridiculous when she used her famous lines against the fake vampire... It'll teach her the baaaadness of arrogance! lol

I really was troubled by the "It's war." line. I see many have discussed it, I wasn't really mad at Buff that she killed the vamp : it is an evil, disgusting thing, not a soldier just as good as her, just coming from another country. Gooo Buffy!

I liked that Willow and Buffy talked really normally, the tensions between them seem to disappear little by little... And I loved the moment of Buffy bringing the dead body in the tomb, and sitting, and dark falling and she hasn't moved. It's just exactly like after Joyce's burial... God, this is good.

 

[LawgSkrak]

A little off topic here, but in the letters page for this issue, they talked about being excited about a Ripper announcement Joss made at ComiCon.

I've looked all over the net and can only find a comment Joss made at the 2007 ComiCon. But why are they talking about it in this issue when the comment was issued a year ago? Did Joss make a new comment abou the Ripper movie this year????

 

[CharmedSlayer85]

I have a question that nobody will be able to answer cause they're not the writers but still, how is Dawn able to destroy buildings. Wasn't it established in like the first issue that her strength is not proportionate to her size. So even though she's a giant she doesn't have giant strength she should still have regular sized Dawn strength.

 

[nerd4hire]

A little off topic here, but in the letters page for this issue, they talked about being excited about a Ripper announcement Joss made at ComiCon.

I've looked all over the net and can only find a comment Joss made at the 2007 ComiCon. But why are they talking about it in this issue when the comment was issued a year ago? Did Joss make a new comment abou the Ripper movie this year????

Who knows why people do what they do, or say what they say. I do know the comic con 2008 starts July 24, with a preview night July 23.

Speaking of stuff we don't get though. I still don't get the objection to Renee being killed. Why is it we're finding it unreasonable to believe people would die in the Buffyverse - a place where slayers, and humans battle vampires and demons? Can somebody explain it to me slow.

And CS85, I never got that "size not proportionate to her strength" thing either.

 

[Vampmogs2]

Not that I know of 🙂 I think they were making reference to the Ripper comment last year at Comic Con 🙂

In response to Allycat;

And appareantly she also thinks that it's okay to kill a prisoner of war after succesfuly questioning him.

Like Buffy said, she never promised to let him go. And she would have been extremely negligent if she had, we saw he was willing to kill children and anyone other innocent person out there. Buffy has always been fighting a war, but that's never stopped her from dusting vampires before.

Edit:

I have a question that nobody will be able to answer cause they're not the writers but still, how is Dawn able to destroy buildings. Wasn't it established in like the first issue that her strength is not proportionate to her size. So even though she's a giant she doesn't have giant strength she should still have regular sized Dawn strength.

The way I took it Buffy meant that she was still as vulnerable as Dawn, as in, if she hits rocks or walls her hands will bleed, as they did in the issue Buffy says this to her. The force is greater because she's a larger object, but she'll still hurt her knuckles, she isn't supernaturally strong now or anything like that. Which is why she's wearing gloves when she attacks the vampires in this issue.

That's the way I took it anyway. She has to be stronger because she has more mass, but she's still able to be harmed as easily as when she was smaller.

Speaking of stuff we don't get though. I still don't get the objection to Renee being killed. Why is it we're finding it unreasonable to believe people would die in the Buffyverse - a place where slayers, and humans battle vampires and demons? Can somebody explain it to me slow.

I agree completely. Of course people are going to die a lot more in the Buffyverse than in regular life, because they're put in life and death situations on a far more regular basis. And it's not unreasonable for Renee to die either, slayers die, often.

Edit:

Sorry for my previous banner everyone, I didn't think at the time that a lot of people haven't got to read the new issue yet! This one doesn't give anything away!

 

[Five]

Love your new banner, Vampmagos !

I wondered the same thing about Dawn, but I guess you're right. It wouldn't make any sense if Giant Dawn had the exact same strength than Regular-sized Dawn...! Regarding the laws of physics, I mean, just like you explained.

And I also agree about the whole many-people-dying thing, it's just logical.

To sum up, I just plainly agree with you ! =D

 

[white avenger]

I have a question that nobody will be able to answer cause they're not the writers but still, how is Dawn able to destroy buildings. Wasn't it established in like the first issue that her strength is not proportionate to her size. So even though she's a giant she doesn't have giant strength she should still have regular sized Dawn strength.

Dawn's strength might not be proportionate to her ner size, but it still must be great just for her to be able to walk or even breathe for that matter. I think that what Buffy meant was something like this: in her normal size, Dawn could lift about 75% of her own weight. Now, as a giant, she can only lift about 50% of her own weight. Maybe she couldn't arm wrestle Godzilla and win, but she's still strong enough to crush buildings, kick trains off of their tracks, or probably catch a jet liner in mid air.

 

[Evilyn]

'Kay, so real quick like. I enjoyed this issue, but not as much as some of the others. The whole 'vamp being set a fire' thing doesn't bother me at all. I mean, he did just reveal a plan to de-slayerize ALL of the slayers, including Buffy, right? So wouldn't that mean that when all of the slayers were just regular girls again, the vamps would probably torture and kill them, mercilessly? I mean, I think given the chance they would, vampires are evil after all. So, one up for the good guys!

Renee getting killed is necessary, I think. I mean, I kinda saw it coming a little bit when they were reeling us in with all the interaction between her and Xander (tho I was in denial). It kinda needed that, "OMG!" factor, and I think ending this issue with that was a good decision. IMO.

Dawn as a giant, I'd like to think her strength is somewhat proportionate to her size. I don't know though. All I do know is that I enjoyed the scenes, since I'm a bit of a Godzilla fan.

As far as Buffy and Satsu goes, I'm just not real sure about it. I'm still getting a slight inkling that she's the traitor, or will be. I mean, I don't have any evidence to back that up, just a feeling.

 

[goldenboy]

I still don't get the objection to Renee being killed.

I think this is actually good. It definitely ups the drama and our investment in this story, that's for sure. What the hell is Xander gonna do now?

It's just the timing. The instant-death-immediately-following-a-relationship-high-point thing. It's come up a few times now. You start to feel like you're seeing the man behind the (storytelling) curtain. When you obsess over the Buffyverse, in its totality, you pick apart its mechanics too much maybe (looking at myself now).

 

[Lyri]

That last panel knocked the wind outta me. I was reading this in the living room this morning, my mom on the other couch, when I turned the page and saw the image (which was utterly beautiful, in a morbid kinda way) I yelled 'OH MY GOD! RENEE!' My mom looked at me like I'd just sprouted a second head.

Maybe it's just me, but I wasn't expecting any big deaths like this to rock up in the comics. Gigi doesn't count, IMO. For some reason, I still had the whole 'it's a comic book' ideal in my head, like it wasn't real. (Yes, I now the shows aren't real either, thank you). But this has really hit it home, this is Joss' show, it's still his world, where what he says goes. How could I forget how cruel, sadistic and utterly brilliant this man actually is?

Other than the complete shock of Renee's death, I liked this issue. Buffy setting fire to the vamp didn't bother me. What was she gonna do? Let him go? The whole stringing up Aiko was harsh and terrible to see. Teleporting Dawn in was hilarious...as was her opening line, lol. Drac's awkwardness during Xander and Renee's kis was funny too.

I can't wait to see how they all deal with things...poor Xander *Sniff*

 

[white avenger]

Okay, I just got my copy today from TFAW, and after reading it, I'm hanging on to a tiny sliver of hope. Renee was stabbed, certainly, and the position of the stake coming out of her chest would seem to indicate a dead center heart wound, but if Willow is quick enough with some sort of stasis spell, there's a chance that she could survive long enough for something to be done for her. I know that Osiris told Willow that she couldn't resurrect Tara because her death was "in the natural order of things," but if Renee can be kept from dying, she can be healed. Recovering from wounds, even as severe as hers is, IS possible, if highly unlikely. That small difference might be enough if she can be kept from actually dying until some sort of healing spell could be prepared. (I know, I know, Joss is a sadistic evil man who revels in the cries of anguish of his fans when he slaughters yet another character whom we have come to have feelings for, but still, I will cling to that tiny hope...)

 

[VisionGuy]

I got this issue today. I LOVED IT!

1. The beginning with Aiko propped up in front of everybody was kinda sad. I actually liked her even though we only saw her in like 5 panels. She would have been an interesting character to have around.

2. Dracula.... IS SO FREAKING COOL! He is my absolute favorite character in the comics as you can see by my avi. I hope he sticks around as a regular because we really need a comic relief, tactless character now that Cordelia, Anya, and Spike have moved on. Almost every line of his is brilliant.

Dracula: Do you still have a witch in your employ?
Willow: I'm standing right here.
Dracula: Ah yes. I should have recognized your acrid stench.

Dracula: I need to get my coffin installed. The sun should be up before long.
Buffy: It's eight PM.
Dracula: Is it? I never understood time zones.

Dracula: (pointing to dead Aiko) Is anybody going to finish eating this?

LMAO! And that's just on the first page he's in. They better keep him around cuz if they don't, I'll be upset.

3. I didn't care for Buffy burning the vampire. He was gonna kill Renee before everyone showed up. *shrugs*

4. The whole Satsu/Buffy thing is getting tired. I just don't see it happening or find it believeable that Buffy would be with her or any other woman. Although Buffy saying she finds it sexy when Stasu calls her ma'am was funny.

5. The scene with Xander and Renee was sweet. I really like her and they look good together. Adding Dracula to this scene was great. He's so petty. LOL

6. The part with giant Dawn was funny. Although I'm tired of them drawing her looking like she's 12.

7. The end with Renne getting stabbed (not dead yet) really annoyed me. Like people here I'm tired of them killing off all the characters. Find a new hobby Joss. Although, hopefully Willow will hear her. I mean she did heal herself completely when Amy tortured her. I don't want to see Renee die. Xander has had enough of his women die already. LOL