Discussion of 8.33 "Twilight Part 2" - Released 3/04/10 (Dark Horse)
- Thread starter Tranquillity
- Start date
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
I wouldn't say she loses... she just goes somewhere else.
And just because magic gets banished doesn't mean it can't find its way back eventually -- we know it does by the time of "Fray", and I don't think anything would prevent Buffy, Dawn and the others from returning, if they can find their way back. I think season 9 may be about exactly that. Scott Allie just said that it's going to be much larger in scope.
B
Buffyverse Fan
Didn't Buffy spend half an issue lamenting her failure? Her whole mission was to prevent a world like Fray's from ever coming about. She did fail if her actions created Fray's dystopian world.
Willow-Tree
Your Childhood Trauma
If Buffy is pregnant, I will abandon the series.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
*raises hand* I concur.
B
Buffyverse Fan
Joking. I always found it funny that Jasmine & Adria (both portrayed by Firefly starlets) were essentially the same character
Wishing Oceans
Mhm, can't disagree with THAT...
Buffyverse Fan
* The 28th *
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
Not everything about the future of the world is down to Buffy's actions. If you take Buffy's world, banish all the demons and magic, you wind up with... well, THIS world. Which someone from another world might very well describe as "dystopian." Or someone from 30 years ago, for that matter.
Fray's world has an unpleasant underbelly (just like ours does), and that's where she lives. I would say that her world is really no worse than ours, or Buffy's... it just looks that way to Buffy because it's unfamiliar and scary to her.
Buffy is a person who likes the comfortable and familiar. Look how much of a loop she was thrown for just going away to college, on the other side of town from her own house.
For her to get pulled into the 23rd century without warning would be like a person from 1810 getting yanked into Times Square on New Year's Eve (and immediately getting attacked and thrown off a building, like Buffy did.) I doubt that 1810 person would go back home feeling too good about the future.
Fray's world looks a lot like I'd expect this world to look in 200 years, with or without demons. In fact, I'd be happy if it turns out that well.
Buffyverse Fan
* The 28th *
Come on Andrew, Westerners' risk of being eaten alive is far less than Fray's peoples'.
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
About the same as alley-dwellers in Buffy's world, I'd say. And remember that demons and vampires have just recently re-arrived on the scene in Fray's world. The world she lives in became the way it was thanks to the efforts of good ol' soul-bearing, red-blooded Homo Sapiens.
Willow-Tree
Your Childhood Trauma
So I finally read the issue (#33.)
I'm definitely going to have to re-read it tonight, but... WTF.
I am furious at both Buffy and Angel. How Buffy is so easily tricked into believing Angel... I mean, she's NOT acting like Buffy! And I know she has a lot on her hands right now, but she can't completely forget about Twilight JUST because he is her former lover!
I'm definitely going to have to re-read it tonight, but... WTF.
I am furious at both Buffy and Angel. How Buffy is so easily tricked into believing Angel... I mean, she's NOT acting like Buffy! And I know she has a lot on her hands right now, but she can't completely forget about Twilight JUST because he is her former lover!
Buffyverse Fan
* The 28th *
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
Whoa, is this a real possibility? I hadn't heard this.
B
Buffyverse Fan
Personally, I hope so, but AndrewCrossett's post there is the only source I've seen...
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
No, that was just speculation on my part.
I made that post a long time ago, and since then I've found out that it is Fox who makes the decisions on who to license to.
The IDW comics sales have been fairly strong, and probably will get better now that the company has become a Diamond Premier publisher. So Fox probably has no reason to change horses at this point.
Plus Scott Allie has indicated he doesn't think Dark Horse will do any more Jossverse comics that Joss himself isn't involved in, and he definitely is too busy to oversee a canonical Angel comic in the near future.
The appearance of Angel in Buffy season 8 probably puts an end to his separate canonical storyline as far as Joss is concerned. There's no telling what will happen with the character after that, but if he has an ongoing independent story now it will probably be very different from the old Angel Investigations stuff.
Superstar
33.3bar% Pure Evil
Hey!
Back again for a bit as I have some time on my hands.
I dunno about pregnant, but I can explain everything else from Buffy flying, the glow, Twilight as being all Superman-like, the princess comments, the 3 second in the future thing among other weirdness in the series.
I will say that it is Mr. Whedon poking fun (and an eye maybe).
If I do explain it outright you might just stop buying them altogether though.
However... I'll give you a hint or two? That work instead?
Just for the curious minded (of course).
Read DC's Blackest Night series.
You could even pay particular attention to Blackest Night: Wonder Woman #2 and the Bruce Wayne (I'm Batman!) kissage.
You know, Princess Diana... that Wonder Woman.
Not Donna Troy or Cassie.
If that wasn't stretching the definition of hint (or two) then I don't know what is.
Willow-Tree
Your Childhood Trauma
Ruminator
Townie
Finally got around to reading this the other day, and it moved me enough to post for the first time in awhile.
Honestly, what bothered me about the issue the most was the writing itself. I can deal with the idea that we are (possibly, maybe even probably) seeing Angel's definitive fall from grace here. I think that is as valid an arc to follow as if he came "shining through" in the end, or whatever it was Faith said back in the day about Angel always making it.
I can even deal with the concept that Buffy has lost her mind, either by choice, stress, or magical intervention. I am one of those people who still couldn't grasp her actions in Season 3 when Angel returned, so I have no problem believing she'd do something silly like what she did at the end of the comic.
I can certainly deal with Season 8 being a total subversion of understood canon, since I stopped taking Season 8 seriously during Wolves at the Gate (as many seem to have done as well). It really shouldn't come as much of a surprise that this is what they are doing.
What I can't deal with is lazy writing cliches, which is where we seem to be heading with yet another "hidden prophecy" which will almost certainly explain what is going on with Buffy and Angel. Haven't we been over this enough? We need another one of these things to pop up at the last second to hastily explain the seemingly incongruent happenstances. Really? Why does this need to be? It's just like the Shadow Men and the Guardians being tossed in at the end of Season 7 in order to make sense of things that we were all confused about, and no matter how you slice, it's just poor writing.
I also don't get the blind faith in Joss Whedon to "fix" all this. Whedon has certainly made several mistakes in the past and will undoubtedly make some in the future as well. And frankly, the time to fix this was a long time ago, not now.
I must admit, though, a certain interest in seeing Angel being written away as a failure to achieve redemption. If this is where we end up going with this, it could be highly interesting in that regard, the fallen hero. But something tells me all will be explained by some hidden prophecy and a hitherto unseen bad guy will somehow negate all this for Angel, and I will be even more annoyed by it.
Honestly, what bothered me about the issue the most was the writing itself. I can deal with the idea that we are (possibly, maybe even probably) seeing Angel's definitive fall from grace here. I think that is as valid an arc to follow as if he came "shining through" in the end, or whatever it was Faith said back in the day about Angel always making it.
I can even deal with the concept that Buffy has lost her mind, either by choice, stress, or magical intervention. I am one of those people who still couldn't grasp her actions in Season 3 when Angel returned, so I have no problem believing she'd do something silly like what she did at the end of the comic.
I can certainly deal with Season 8 being a total subversion of understood canon, since I stopped taking Season 8 seriously during Wolves at the Gate (as many seem to have done as well). It really shouldn't come as much of a surprise that this is what they are doing.
What I can't deal with is lazy writing cliches, which is where we seem to be heading with yet another "hidden prophecy" which will almost certainly explain what is going on with Buffy and Angel. Haven't we been over this enough? We need another one of these things to pop up at the last second to hastily explain the seemingly incongruent happenstances. Really? Why does this need to be? It's just like the Shadow Men and the Guardians being tossed in at the end of Season 7 in order to make sense of things that we were all confused about, and no matter how you slice, it's just poor writing.
I also don't get the blind faith in Joss Whedon to "fix" all this. Whedon has certainly made several mistakes in the past and will undoubtedly make some in the future as well. And frankly, the time to fix this was a long time ago, not now.
I must admit, though, a certain interest in seeing Angel being written away as a failure to achieve redemption. If this is where we end up going with this, it could be highly interesting in that regard, the fallen hero. But something tells me all will be explained by some hidden prophecy and a hitherto unseen bad guy will somehow negate all this for Angel, and I will be even more annoyed by it.
Buffyverse Fan
* The 28th *
See, I think this is a mistake we're all making. I think Joss loves Angel. I don't think Joss loved the show Angel, I believe he's made it pretty clear that even though he was fully invested in it until the end, it was clearly his least favorite (compared to Buffy, Dollhouse, and Firefly). But I think he loves the character Angel. Angel's irreparable fall to corruption is just something I could never see Joss doing. This is not me saying "oh, Joss is too good a writer" this is me saying "Joss plays favorites."
I was a harsh critic of some aspects of this season, but I don't have a problem with the prophecy. To the contrary, this seems to fall in line with the original prophecy made by Whistler. We never got the details there, but I think we may now after a decade in waiting.
I agree that blind faith is crazy, but what mistakes?
Angel Season 4 was a letdown, but let's be fair, Joss planned for Cordelia to continue being the sex symbol and for Doyle to be the Big Bad. We can't fault Joss for Charisma getting pregnant and Glenn Quinn dying.
Joss made a mistake (in my opinion) with IDW. He should have either told them not to continue publishing stories under his canon title OR monitored it closely enough so it would jibe well with Season Eight. But that's something that upset us fans and IDW, the story didn't suffer, imo.
Joss let the multiple writers take BS8 on too many tangents. He apologized for this one.
GrimsWatcher
Potential
Ruminator, agreed on Wolves at the Gate being the point I said this isn't canon to me. Once the forced Buffy/Satsu situation happened it changed my viewpoint of the comics. Buffy became an absolute cliche to me in that moment, and she used to be more interesting than that.
Now I read the comics for the entertainment value, but not as a true continuation. Just silly fun. And with that thought, it's freeing and more enjoyable to read them.
Now I read the comics for the entertainment value, but not as a true continuation. Just silly fun. And with that thought, it's freeing and more enjoyable to read them.
Ruminator
Townie
What does Whedon loving, or not loving, Angel have to do with writing him as (essentially) an anti-hero? Writers certainly can "fall in love" with their "bad guy" characters as much as their good guy ones. I just don't see how Whedon's feelings on Angel one way or another changes the overall arc of story. If he writes this as Angels fall from grace, or we see Angel as an anti-hero being "morally relativistic" as was written in the Q&A, it won't be because he doesn't like the character.
Whistler was clearly talking about Acathla. If they try to play up ambiguity in what he said, they'll have to really explain why he made several references specifically to him.
Several. From the mundane (forgetting the First appeared as Warren, thus making the fact he was alive seem odd, something Whedon mentioned in the beginning of the comic), to the mildly annoying (the weird "continuity" of Angel's back story), to the large (the last two seasons felt very out of place after the network switch). But we can certainly mention the ones you bring up as well...
Neither Glenn Quinn's death, nor Charisma Carpenter's pregnancy suddenly make good writing bad. They didn't have to go the way they did with the writing, they choose to. And it wasn't very good.
Eh, I don't really care enough about the comics to worry about it too much. And this, I think, was probably more of a business mistake than a writing mistake, and I was specifically talking about writing mistakes.
See, I don't necessarily think this was a problem. It's fine that the season wasn't on rails and we had side plots come up, this allowed for exploration of other issues which is certainly a valid option when dealing with source material with a broad mythos. It will only become a problem if it becomes contradictory, forgotten altogether, or impedes the storytelling. This has been discussed before but... the whole "vamps in, slayers out" thing has greatly harmed the season simply by existing. That is a problem.
GrimsWatcher said:
A bit of a tangent but... I should say that the only thing that ever bothered me about the Buffy/Satsu thing was the apparent justification of it by Whedon, where he said it was the logical next step for Buffy. That seemed to imply that, when ever someone has had a rough go with relationships the next obvious step for them is a homosexual encounter. I found that to be both patronizing and insulting. However, since I can find literally no backing of that sentiment beyond some wikipages, I take it with a grain of salt.
Agreed. Which is why I never really said too much on them till now.
Buffyverse Fan
* The 28th *
Because Angel represents eight years of his work, and him becoming morally relativistic would be a step backwards. He started out that way, look at his original stint in the Hyperion. Whedon will happily take his characters down dark paths, but not backwards.
That wasn't exactly the error. The error was Undead!Warren claiming that he told Andrew they could be "as gods." But it was really the First!Warren who made that claim, and the two are unrelated. The First can appear as Warren given he's undead not a normal human.
I'm not saying they do? I am saying it's understandable. There was a four year build-up to a story that had its legs cut out shortly before the climax (due to real world events).
It's both. Whedon should not have allowed Kelley Armstrong to publish Angel saying "I've already attained redemption" under his banner. Whedon specifically said that this is not the case...
That entire Predators & Prey arc was poor by any personal standard.
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
Ruminator
Townie
Whedon most certainly has taken his characters backwards before. Perhaps never so notably as when, in Season 3, at the exact moment Buffy made significant steps towards getting over Angel, he reappears and we go right back to their "star crossed love affair" all over again, with Buffy reverting to her "teen in love who can't decide" routine.
And whats more, the Q&A specifically mentions the term morally relativistic, and how that was how Angel was reacting, so certainly Whedon has him going down that path already.
Most importantly, though, I don't think this could be considered a backwards movement for Angel. What we saw from him in Season 2 of Angel was him hitting rock bottom. He firmly believed he was beyond redemption, he had lost hope, and he was lashing out. What I think we are seeing (and going to see) here is him embracing hope (probably through the means of yet another prophecy) that he and Buffy can be together, and the idea that his happiness is as important as anyone elses (as stated by his question to Buffy about wanting to be happy). He's going for the brass ring, so to speak, and in so doing as pushed aside moral certainty for moral relativism. I don't think that is something we've seen from him before.
I don't remember it that way at all. I remember reading about the whole "Amy's magic is my skin" stuff and saying how she kept him alive from the flaying, not that he was undead. I'll check my first issue again when I get home (yep, still got it) but I am 95% certain thats what was said, that he never actually died. Though I think Whedon admits the mistake in the letters from #6.
Thats only if you accept at face value what is stated on the show itself, that being that this whole thing was "planned for years". Which I don't. I do not believe for a moment that at the start of the show, Whedon said "in four years, we are gonna do a big reveal about how all of this was planned, and Doyle will be a bad guy, and Cordelia will still be here" and so forth.
And even if one does accept that, there were certainly ways around it that would not include what happened. Charisma being pregnant simply does not mean someone couldn't be told "Hey, you know, having Cordelia sleep with Connor probably isn't a good idea".
Maybe, but I still say Whedon gets a pass here for the difficulty of working with TWO different companies at the same time. I just think it is pretty clear, giving the communication (or lack thereof) between the two publications that Whedon isn't really on the up and up with what Armstrong is doing.
Indeed.