Discussion of 8.33 "Twilight Part 2" - Released 3/04/10 (Dark Horse)

[UnKle]

What?!

I'm still reading through this thread, but I wanted to - no, needed to - post about my reaction to this whole Angel reveal stuff in #33.

Here's the thing. I'm confused, shocked, irritated, agitated, more confused, and deflated.

As far as finale arcs go, this one has fallen on its face for me. While I realize it isn't finished yet, the part I do have in my hand is the only thing I can speak about. When the arc is finished, maybe I'll feel better? But at this point, I don't feel like I will.

I was accidentally spoiled to Angel's Twilight-ness. Ooh, I was pissed. I was reading an article in a magazine online and they just spilled the beans out there for god and all to see. At the time, I was more pissed that they'd taken the chance at a genuine reaction away from me. After a couple of days, though, the whole "Angel is Twilight?!" reveal just kept gnawing at the back of my brain. Angel is Twilight?! WTF m8?

So, I'm trying to understand several things. One is exactly the meaning of what Angel said to Giles and Buffy. What is it that Giles wasn't telling Buffy and Faith? What is the glow and why is it happening? And why does Angel call Buffy "Buff"? "Buff" = Hi, I'm Angelus, and you're a tasty treat. Two, is this REALLY what I'm supposed to buy? That Angel was somehow protecting Buffy, and to do it, he had to hound her and her Slayers to the ends of the Earth, exhaust and demoralize everyone, beat the snot out of Buffy, cause everyone to live in terminal fear, kill 206 innocent girls, and in general, Screw Up Everything Coz I Lurve Her and I'd Terrorize and Kill Anyone, Including Buffy, To Prove It?

And then Buffy accepts it all. Accepts it, and makes out with it.

I mean...

What?

What??

This isn't a shipper thing for me. I vaguely ship everything and nothing. The relationshippyness of the characters is not a primary enchancement for my enjoyment one way or the other. But I am truly unnerved and unsatisfied by the idea that Angel would do this, and that he would do it for the reason(s) he stated, and that Buffy isn't ripping his arms out of his shoulders and beating him to an unrecognizable pulp with them, for it.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Whedon most certainly has taken his characters backwards before. Perhaps never so notably as when, in Season 3, at the exact moment Buffy made significant steps towards getting over Angel, he reappears and we go right back to their "star crossed love affair" all over again, with Buffy reverting to her "teen in love who can't decide" routine.

That was an ongoing arc, and we're talking about a matter of weeks there. That's a heck of a lot different from nine years on-screen/panel, 12+ years total of evolution.

Most importantly, though, I don't think this could be considered a backwards movement for Angel. What we saw from him in Season 2 of Angel was him hitting rock bottom. He firmly believed he was beyond redemption, he had lost hope, and he was lashing out. What I think we are seeing (and going to see) here is him embracing hope (probably through the means of yet another prophecy) that he and Buffy can be together, and the idea that his happiness is as important as anyone elses (as stated by his question to Buffy about wanting to be happy). He's going for the brass ring, so to speak, and in so doing as pushed aside moral certainty for moral relativism. I don't think that is something we've seen from him before.

That's a stronger point, but I still think it's backwards. Angel was morally relativistic for 100 years until Whistler/Buffy/Doyle/Cordy rubbed off on him. Champion!Angel flat-out said to Wesley that he had trouble even understanding that concept in the context of being a hero.

And shortly thereafter when he did talk about moral relativism, it was a big ruse to take down the Circle of the Black Thorn.

I don't remember it that way at all. I remember reading about the whole "Amy's magic is my skin" stuff and saying how she kept him alive from the flaying, not that he was undead. I'll check my first issue again when I get home (yep, still got it) but I am 95% certain thats what was said, that he never actually died. Though I think Whedon admits the mistake in the letters from #6.

I don't remember the exact scene as it's been years, but I do know that the mistake Whedon acknowledged was that Warren took credit for the First!Warren's "we are as gods" speech. This was even retconned, with Amy almost breaking the fourth-wall, pointing out that it didn't make sense.

Thats only if you accept at face value what is stated on the show itself, that being that this whole thing was "planned for years". Which I don't. I do not believe for a moment that at the start of the show, Whedon said "in four years, we are gonna do a big reveal about how all of this was planned, and Doyle will be a bad guy, and Cordelia will still be here" and so forth.

Not at face value, David Fury, Charisma & Whedon have mentioned that in interviews. Pregnant Cordy & Jasmine were last minute scrambles to accommodate the situation. And Whedon had planned to bring Doyle back as a baddy after Glenn kicked his drug problem from pretty much day one.

Maybe, but I still say Whedon gets a pass here for the difficulty of working with TWO different companies at the same time. I just think it is pretty clear, giving the communication (or lack thereof) between the two publications that Whedon isn't really on the up and up with what Armstrong is doing.

Whedon could have said that she can't publish under his AtF title. He claims he has universal veto power.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Dont think we get all the answers in issue 34. I decided to just wait and see how this unfolds. I like Season 8 but i care more about the TV Show and so what happends next doesn´t really bother me anymore.

Does anyone know where Angels crew is? The absence of Connor,Gunn,Illyria and even Cordy is pretty strange. I´m reading Atf too and Angel is at this point still in L.A. But the timeline says its 1 year after the Hell A. incident. So it can´t be the Angel from Atf? Angel disappeared for a whole year and nobody of his friends noticed it?

I´m looking forward to Spikes arrival. Yes i know Buffy wouldn´t tell him she missed(loved) him too but in my reality Season 7 was the end of Btvs and she meant what she said. I´m sure of it.

Anyways i´ll still read the series. Can´t live without a little Buffy in my life.

So i´ll be waiting patient till the 7. april.

I don´t want to see the Buffy bones Angel part but it´s Joss story so he can do whatever he wants.

 

[Ruminator]

That was an ongoing arc, and we're talking about a matter of weeks there. That's a heck of a lot different from nine years on-screen/panel, 12+ years total of evolution.

Ongoing doesn't mean it can't go backwards. Going in a circle, which is essentially what they did at that point in Season 3, also entails some backtracking. The Buffy character essentially regressed back to her state in Season 2, as if everything she had learned in the first part of Season 3 was for nothing.

That's a stronger point, but I still think it's backwards. Angel was morally relativistic for 100 years until Whistler/Buffy/Doyle/Cordy rubbed off on him. Champion!Angel flat-out said to Wesley that he had trouble even understanding that concept in the context of being a hero.

In what way was he morally relativistic during this time? Now, granted, the continuity for this era is very convoluted, but from what we've seen, he was generally more apathetic than anything, refusing to really do much of anything. That's not moral relativism.

And shortly thereafter when he did talk about moral relativism, it was a big ruse to take down the Circle of the Black Thorn.

Of course it was, but how does this prove that it wouldn't be a believable character development? I mean, Scott Allie specifically stated that Angel is acting thusly, as a moral relativist. An embrace of such a disposition would certainly be a believable arc for Angel if we are seeing his ultimate fate play out here.

I don't remember the exact scene as it's been years, but I do know that the mistake Whedon acknowledged was that Warren took credit for the First!Warren's "we are as gods" speech. This was even retconned, with Amy almost breaking the fourth-wall, pointing out that it didn't make sense.

Looking at the letters for #6, it is clear from a response there that Whedon indeed forgot the whole bit about The First impersonating dead Warren, and such, so he quickly says "Hey, he was like, legally dead for a minute!" or some such, obviously coping to the simple oversight.

Not at face value, David Fury, Charisma & Whedon have mentioned that in interviews. Pregnant Cordy & Jasmine were last minute scrambles to accommodate the situation. And Whedon had planned to bring Doyle back as a baddy after Glenn kicked his drug problem from pretty much day one.

Yes, the Doyle as a baddy concept had been floated for awhile, but this is a nebulous concept, not a plan. Furthermore, it is not a testament at the time to a deep seeded plan to have the entire show (till that point) be the work of some higher power. That was all clearly thrown together to make a seasonal arc, not to wrap up a many seasons long one. If so, there wouldn't have been so many holes in it.

Whedon could have said that she can't publish under his AtF title. He claims he has universal veto power.

Sure, I'm just not convinced he is always fully aware about what is being written before it goes out.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

In what way was he morally relativistic during this time? Now, granted, the continuity for this era is very convoluted, but from what we've seen, he was generally more apathetic than anything, refusing to really do much of anything. That's not moral relativism.

Siring Lawson to stick it to the Nazis, get himself home, and win one for America.

Eating murderers, thieves, rapists during the Boxer Rebellion.

Yes, the Doyle as a baddy concept had been floated for awhile, but this is a nebulous concept, not a plan. Furthermore, it is not a testament at the time to a deep seeded plan to have the entire show (till that point) be the work of some higher power. That was all clearly thrown together to make a seasonal arc, not to wrap up a many seasons long one. If so, there wouldn't have been so many holes in it.

Wait, you're honestly saying you think they just got halfway through Season 4 and ran out of ideas?

 

[citiegal17]

If Xander is killed as a result of Buffy's betrayal of her friends, I will never have an interest in anything Buffy. Xander is just as important of character as Buffy or Willow. It simply wouldn't be Buffy without him, and if the character Buffy really thinks that Angel is more important than Xander then I'm gonna say that I have lost all faith in her character, although I don't find her behavior that surprising. Angel was never as important of character as he was, he is the reason that she has made it this far, as quoted by her in season 7 to kill him would be to kill the series.

 

[Ruminator]

Siring Lawson to stick it to the Nazis, get himself home, and win one for America.

An act of desperation to complete a "mission" he had no desire to be involved in in the first place. Where did the government agents find Angel again? Sitting in his apartment doing nothing, not interested in helping the "war effort" at all. He sired Lawson to fix the boat, he cared not about the mission, as he stated numerous times. That's not moral relativism.

Eating murderers, thieves, rapists during the Boxer Rebellion.

A feeding necessity. Also a veiled dig at Lestat from Anne Rice's books, the kind of things we know Whedon loves to throw into his works.

Wait, you're honestly saying you think they just got halfway through Season 4 and ran out of ideas?

No, I think they ran out of ideas before the season started and put together Season 4 because they thought it would work. Only, of course, it didn't. How anyone could possibly listen to that ridiculous run down by Skip about how "all this was planned" and think it made any sense escapes me. They were grasping for straws and scapegoated Charisma Carpenters pregnancy for it. Just read some of Vincent Kartheisers comments about the feeling on the set those days.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I think "moral relativism" is the wrong term for what Twangel has been exhibiting. Moral relativism is the belief that morality can only be understood in context... unfortunately, that ends up amounting to "anything I do is moral because I choose to define it as such."

Twangel's philosophy here is more of an absolute "the ends justifies the means" thing, combined with a strong ethos of collectivism... that individual lives don't matter, only that more lives are saved than expended.

But Twangel has said several things that I simply can't imagine coming out of Angel's mouth, no matter how much experience might have changed him in the year or two since we last saw him at the end of AtF. "Kill the man who found this spike"... wanting to strip Buffy of her moral certainty... "this doesn't end with Buffy laying down her sword, but turning it on herself"... "They're mortal, they have to die sometime"... "I want to watch this"... "I didn't kill anyone, this was happening".

Either Angel is strongly under the influence of something, or Joss has completely forgotten everything he's ever written about this character. I'm thinking the first option is more likely.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

@Andrew What if he is not under any influence at all? You sound kinda desperate to believe in your theory at all costs. You are right about the occ stuff about him but in season 5 and even AtF Angel did some things i thought he wasn´t capable of.

Killing Drogyn was a huge step and getting the blame for Freds death was ooc too. But he thought it was the right thing to do and now he is in the same position with Buffy and her slayers.

I dont like his actions but a magical influence is in my honest opinion pretty cheap and kinda lame.

Angel is not like Buffy his moral compass is much complex then hers. Dont forget he lived 250+ years and he is still looking for redemption. Maybe he just snapped. The Connor incident in AtF was horrible and broke him a little.

Angelus on the other hand were just to convenient. Blaming his dark side would be to easy and Buffy wouldn´t fall for him again.

I really like the speculations about season 8.

Spike will save the day and i guess he has to fight Twilight. Maybe Buffy joins Twilight and those two together are the big bad in this season.

Big bads Top 5:

Twilight/Angel: Under influence or not they have to fight him.

Angel and Buffy: Worst case scenario: Xander+Willow are forced to fight both of them. It would break my heart into thousand pieces but its possible. Spike´s reaction is unclear but imo he would help Xander and Willow.

Giles: His actions became more and more suspicious and he acts wierd. His secrets are pissing me off again.

Unknown party: Never before seen enemy or TBTB and W&H. The senior partners are still alive.

The first: The first wasn´t defeated at the hellmouth. Only his minions died on that day. He/she or better it escaped while the whole town were destroyed. Buffy never fought the first face to face so how can we be sure it´s really dead?

Damn and now my head is spinning again.

Just call me crazy but i think 1 of those is the big bad.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

@Andrew What if he is not under any influence at all? You sound kinda desperate to believe in your theory at all costs.

What do you mean "at all costs?" His actions are clearly OOC, and there are plenty of very strong hints that something is influencing matters here. Scott Allie's come right out and told us that Twilight is an IT, not a WHO, and Georges Jeanty just told us that Angel's actions are being influenced by "an older party."

Yeah, it's lame that Angel is once again under the influence of some greater magical power, but that's by far the least lame possibility.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Damn you are fast. 🙂

We just have to wait how it unfolds but you are right it´s the least lame possibility. I dont really like it that´s all.

It´s like Joss wanted to shock us but now it´s over and we all have to calm down because Angel isn´t responsible for all his actions in the past and everything will be fine.

It´s kinda boring. Don´t you think? It would be so much better if he is really Angel without any influence.

Older party sounds like senior partners or like i said the first.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I think the "older party" is Twilight itself... an ancient force dedicated to maintaining the balance between dark and light, good and evil. And I think the season will end with Buffy deciding to reject that, and go ahead and banish the demons.

And, as with all of her brash decisions, there will be consequences (see: season 9).

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

An act of desperation to complete a "mission" he had no desire to be involved in in the first place. Where did the government agents find Angel again? Sitting in his apartment doing nothing, not interested in helping the "war effort" at all. He sired Lawson to fix the boat, he cared not about the mission, as he stated numerous times. That's not moral relativism.



A feeding necessity. Also a veiled dig at Lestat from Anne Rice's books, the kind of things we know Whedon loves to throw into his works.



No, I think they ran out of ideas before the season started and put together Season 4 because they thought it would work. Only, of course, it didn't. How anyone could possibly listen to that ridiculous run down by Skip about how "all this was planned" and think it made any sense escapes me. They were grasping for straws and scapegoated Charisma Carpenters pregnancy for it. Just read some of Vincent Kartheisers comments about the feeling on the set those days.

Sorry, but I just disagree with your whole post. No offense meant.

And as for Kartheiser, he just dislikes Whedon's writing in general, which he's quite vocal about. He claims he literally doesn't understand some of it, and finds most of it difficult to say. I don't blame Kartheiser for his sentiments though, because Connor first became a good character after he was fired.

As for moral relativism, since I minored in Philosophy I have a rough idea of the concept 😉

---------- Post added at 04:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:47 PM ----------

I think the "older party" is Twilight itself... an ancient force dedicated to maintaining the balance between dark and light, good and evil. And I think the season will end with Buffy deciding to reject that, and go ahead and banish the demons.

And, as with all of her brash decisions, there will be consequences (see: season 9).

I think that entire concept is a poor fit for our characters. But I'm heavily biased against it since Armstrong executed that terribly...

 

[Tome]

Ruminator wrote

If so, there wouldn't have been so many holes in it.

Can you give us some examples? I get your point but i'm just curious which holes you're talking about.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Only 5 days left.

The question that bugs me the most is were Angel forced to become Twilight or was it his free will and why has Buffy developed super powers? The glow thing has something to do with the incident in the basement when Xander and Buffy met Spike and Willow was trapped in another timeline. I still believe in my theory.

Btw: Why are the slayers called only vampire slayers if they are killing demons,gods and all sorts of creatures aswell and is Twilight a vampire,human or something else?

 

[Superstar]

How do you know all this lol

All of what exactly?

That I read comics just like Mr. Whedon does?
That Mr. Whedon is an active comic book writer on superhero titles other than Buffy/Angel and has been for a long time?
That Mr. Whedon likes comics and likes writing them?
That Mr. Whedon stays current on developments in superhero comics because he still writes for them off and on?
That Mr. Whedon has an especially soft spot for Wonder Woman (even after his WW movie deal went south)?
That Angel is all but stated as being his version of Batman (including parody lines from the Batman flicks)?
That Buffy/Angel have first and foremost always been comic-book Superheroes brought to the small screen (think Smallville)?
That he reminded us with dozens and dozens and dozens of such direct statements in the shows in case the audience wasn't swift enough to catch the connection?

Well, I gotta go. Boy Wonder Conner just drove up in the Angelmobile and threatened me with a yellow crayon scribbled NDA so that's that.

 

[citiegal17]

I really hope that the lamest defense ever of things could be worst because of the big picture because frankly thats doesn't legitmate murder. If Angel is admitting to murdering innocent people willingly he is not redemable whether he is good or evil. This isn't an arguement of gray vs. gray, its still black vs. white. Nothing can ever justify what he has done even if the end result was worse. Also moral relativism is hardly different than the ends justify the means. As well the fact he has already murdered someone he considered a friend for a fruitless battle. Whether he is the big bad is a pointless argument as well, the things he has done are just not consistent actions of a good person, and it doesn't make it any better than he has done good in the past, its still wrong. The arguement that something worse would have happened is just a terrible defense, it in no one should get him off the hook for doing horrible thiings to people.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

@Andrew What if he is not under any influence at all? You sound kinda desperate to believe in your theory at all costs. You are right about the occ stuff about him but in season 5 and even AtF Angel did some things i thought he wasn´t capable of.

Killing Drogyn was a huge step and getting the blame for Freds death was ooc too. But he thought it was the right thing to do and now he is in the same position with Buffy and her slayers.

I dont like his actions but a magical influence is in my honest opinion pretty cheap and kinda lame.

Angel is not like Buffy his moral compass is much complex then hers. Dont forget he lived 250+ years and he is still looking for redemption. Maybe he just snapped. The Connor incident in AtF was horrible and broke him a little.

Angelus on the other hand were just to convenient. Blaming his dark side would be to easy and Buffy wouldn´t fall for him again.

I really like the speculations about season 8.

Spike will save the day and i guess he has to fight Twilight. Maybe Buffy joins Twilight and those two together are the big bad in this season.

Big bads Top 5:

Twilight/Angel: Under influence or not they have to fight him.

Angel and Buffy: Worst case scenario: Xander+Willow are forced to fight both of them. It would break my heart into thousand pieces but its possible. Spike´s reaction is unclear but imo he would help Xander and Willow.

Giles: His actions became more and more suspicious and he acts wierd. His secrets are pissing me off again.

Unknown party: Never before seen enemy or TBTB and W&H. The senior partners are still alive.

The first: The first wasn´t defeated at the hellmouth. Only his minions died on that day. He/she or better it escaped while the whole town were destroyed. Buffy never fought the first face to face so how can we be sure it´s really dead?

Damn and now my head is spinning again.

Just call me crazy but i think 1 of those is the big bad.

I think you're on to something. At this point, we know jacksquat, so all speculation is valid as far as I'm concerned. You're right - Angel NEVER had the strong moral compass Buffy did. He WAS willing to kill people he loved for the "greater good" (although Buffy was incapable of it).

In regard to your comment about Andrew being "desperate" because he wants to believe that Angel s under some sort of influence - so do I, because that's the only way - at this point, with what we know - that we can reconcile his actions and save his character.

Your theory about Angel and Buffy fighting Willow and Xander won't happen, I don't think. Allie said I'm pretty sure, that the core four's dynamic will stay intact this season.

I like the idea of The First showing up, actually. That could be really interesting, but don't know about the Senior Partners. If anything, I think they might be behind this. After all, they always believed Angel was worth more "evil", hence their plan to bring Darla back as a human and seduce Angel, with the hope of bringing out Angelus again.

Well, did you read the recent interview with Brad Metzler (sp)? He said that there's something else coming up that is beyond Twilight.

I think our heads are really going to explode next issue. I have no idea what's in store for us. I don't know about you, but I might even get physically ill if I have to see any more panels of Buffy and Angel having sex. For serious.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

I think our heads are really going to explode next issue. I have no idea what's in store for us. I don't know about you, but I might even get physically ill if I have to see any more panels of Buffy and Angel having sex. For serious.

I read the interview and saw the picture. 🙁 Poor Spike....

I only read the comics just for fun but this is a huge pill to swallow. Buffy came back wrong and now she proves it. I wont get physically ill but it will hurt a lot and the only question is. Why?

A part of me just wants to quit reading because of the direction the characters are heading but i won´t. I hope i can look back after season 8 and say to myself "Damn Joss is incredible i´ve never saw that twist coming".

1 day left.