Discussion of 8.33 "Twilight Part 2" - Released 3/04/10 (Dark Horse)

[white avenger]

I may have to go to Barnes & Nobel today and buy this issue instead of waiting for The Bowers That Be TFAW to finally deliver my subscription sometime within the next couple of weeks.

 

[Lyri]

My issue didn't come!! I feel cheated, despite the nice cheque I got this morning, lol. I wanted my copy!! *grumbles* Better be here tomorrow.

 

[VisionGuy]

I'm getting upset reading all these posts. This issue is gonna suck. Ugh, I have so many problems with what's going on in the Buffyverse right now.

 

[Kean]

1) What is this glow? How does it affect them?
2) When Buffy and Angel reconcile are they under any supernatural influence because neither they nor their actions appear to be that of the characters we know.

Joan, I have one more lol

In the Buffy episode "Becoming Part II" Whistler, talking about Buffy and Angel being in love/together, tells Buffy that "Nobody saw this coming". How do we reconcile this to what was revealed in this issue where we are told that Buffy and Angel are fated?

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Joan, I have one more lol

In the Buffy episode "Becoming Part II" Whistler, talking about Buffy and Angel being in love/together, tells Buffy that "Nobody saw this coming". How do we reconcile this to what was revealed in this issue where we are told that Buffy and Angel are fated?

Well, let's be fair here, Whistler was just another PTB Seer. Cordy & Doyle never got the big picture either. Cordy even accidentally had Angel kill another Champion protecting a pregnant woman once...

Personally, I am a Bangel simply because Joss is a Bangel. So that aspect doesn't really throw me. Issue #34 is going to make or break the Buffyverse for me (Similar to what AndrewCrosset was saying about this one). If we get a sensible explanation, then I can go with this, otherwise, S8's ruined the franchise.

Someone PLEASE reconcile this for me....please.

For me, I think I'm going to need it to be Cordy and/or Doyle who have convinced Angel to do this, because, regardless of how good a reason Angel has, it won't make sense to me if his source isn't a Higher Power who also happens to be his best friend.

Angel couldn't muster himself to kill Holtz after kidnapping Connor, stealing 17 years of his life, and brainwashing him. It won't be believable unless we see that Cordy came down from the Higher Plane showing Angel the future that would be if Angel didn't go on his killing spree.

I'm also wondering what the finale's going to be if Super Angel & Super Buffy are "sex buddies" again. The only enemy big enough for the two of them to reasonably fight would be Wolfram & Hart. And it would sure be odd if this turns into a mission from TPTB to combat W&H, because in that case this whole season of Buffy has been about resolving Angel plot-lines (which I doubt).

 

[Kean]

Well, let's be fair here, Whistler was just another PTB Seer. Cordy & Doyle never got the big picture either. Cordy even accidentally had Angel kill another Champion protecting a pregnant woman once...

Personally, I am a Bangel simply because Joss is a Bangel. So that aspect doesn't really throw me. Issue #34 is going to make or break the Buffyverse for me (Similar to what AndrewCrosset was saying about this one). If we get a sensible explanation, then I can go with this, otherwise, S8's ruined the franchise.



For me, I think I'm going to need it to be Cordy and/or Doyle who have convinced Angel to do this, because, regardless of how good a reason Angel has, it won't make sense to me if his source isn't a Higher Power who also happens to be his best friend.

Angel couldn't muster himself to kill Holtz after kidnapping Connor, stealing 17 years of his life, and brainwashing him. It won't be believable unless we see that Cordy came down from the Higher Plane showing Angel the future that would be if Angel didn't go on his killing spree.

I'm also wondering what the finale's going to be if Super Angel & Super Buffy are "sex buddies" again. The only enemy big enough for the two of them to reasonably fight would be Wolfram & Hart. And it would sure be odd if this turns into a mission from TPTB to combat W&H, because in that case this whole season of Buffy has been about resolving Angel plot-lines (which I doubt).

According to Allie the next two issues are the ones that are going to answer all the question that have been raised from 33. I've been trusting the Joss since day one with Bangel and he hasn't done me wrong...yet. However, I agree with you, if they don't pull this off and make it make sense then they have retroactively destroyed the entire verse for me.

 

[Eleftheria]

I have managed to find a few comics...not the ones about twilight's ID though...anyway I am glad this forum exists!


I also trust Joss but it is clear that he is a sadist. He has shown that throughout the years. But this is beyond sadistic nature. Destroying characters is a major subject especially when the whole verse is based on them.

I am a hardcore Bangel, but it would not be ok if that person,Twilight, is actually Angel...the Angel I last saw in Not Fade Away. Angel is not a mass murderer or a terrorist or anything like that. Also, it would not be ok, for Buffy to forget about the world and join Angel without any questions. I absolutely love them together, and I think they are perfect for each other, but in the way I met them in the shows. Not like that.

 

[Don]

So, how come Buffy wasn't glowing when Angel beat her ass in A Beautiful Sunset?

 

[AndrewCrossett]

So, how come Buffy wasn't glowing when Angel beat her ass in A Beautiful Sunset?

Because her special powers hadn't activated yet. (And I still think the Scythe is closely tied to this issue.)

From my standpoint, I don't see any way that Angel can be saved as a character at this point, that I would have any interest in rooting for or following his story. He's done. He chose to follow his destiny rather than his dream, and his journey as a hero has ended in failure.

Buffy may still be salvageable as a relevant character, depending. But many of her friendships, including some core Scooby friendships going back to "Welcome to the Hellmouth," are going to end permanently over this. In particular, Xander may be done with her (or should be, if he has any self-respect left.)

I can only see two possible endings for season 8 now... a bad one, or a fatal one.

 

[Don]

Something keeps bothering me.

Swell?

Angel was saying that he became Twilight and did what he did because it was the way to end the least amount of lives. The thing is, though, that Twilight sent the Vampy Cats out. Sure, half a million were heading towards Scotland to kill the slayers, but what about the rest of the shipments? One of the slayers (don't know if we ever got a name) says that the product is going global, and the MDHP webcomic shows kids playing with vampy cats. Also, that webcomic confirms that it wasn't just the toys heading towards the slayers that were evil--the kids in the commercial turn evil too.

What I'm getting at here is this: Angel says he did was he did because, if he just sat back and did nothing, the governments of the world would have killed all the slayers. I'm unsure where sending a bunch of evil, murderous toys to the world's children comes into play there.

ooohhh... BETTER PLOT FOR S8? Buffy and her team of slayers vs. Evil slayer Simone's team of slayers + other demons that Simone has promised places of power to once Buffy and her crew are destroyed. (Wouldn't it have been nice to see a follow-up to that/If everything in the predators & prey arc wasn't an enormous waste of time?) it could end with Buffy almost dying and then Faith showing up and telling Simone how she was the evil slayer way before she ever showed up, and then she kills her.

 

[Adam]

When the chips are down, and you're at the end of your rope you need someone that you can count on. And that person is Joss Whedon - someone who'll go all the way, who'll save the Buffyverse no matter what. So don't lost hope. Just wait until the start of the next arc and you'll see that there's still great writers left in this world.

 

[citiegal17]

motive for Angel to kill Xander

I think some people are not seeing a clear plot line that has existed since season 1, and no I am not pointing fingers at anyone. Angel would want Xander dead because he is the one that would make Buffy see how truly evil he really is. Also the whole sublot with Buffy in love with him should really hint at something. I don't think she is really in love with Angel at all, and is probably being manipulated both by him and Angel. I don't think Angel has any excuse at all that should get him out of this. Xander was and has always been his greatest enemey, his the one that has always hated Angel, and called him out on his actions. The only Buffy hasn't really dusted long before is she still thinks he truly loves her. However, his actions have already proved he will hurt the one's he loves in order to be shanshu, what makes anyone thinks that he maybe is really just using Buffy and has been along. I think Xander has been thinking along these lines for a while. He knows that Angel hesistated to even go and save her in prophetcy girl and he was ensouled then. Even you really love someone there shouldn't be any hesitation. Xander is more than the likely to be the oppistion against Angel, and is the true leader of the slayers in a way. He is an equal to Buffy, and maybe a little bit more so. Even if he doesn't have any powers she does, he has proven himself to be the one who saves the day with or without powers, without any motives, his speech in grave is just one of the best moments that prove he is a great hero, that can win battles without killing anyone. Angel thinks that he has to kill to win a battle, this puts Xander as the one who will be most likely the one Angel wants to kill. And if Angel is from the future I would bet he he wants to kill Xander and Buffy, because they eventually down the line get together, and she chooses Xander over him, and he never gets the Shanshu because of Xander who Buffy chooses over him. Them being together could very much be his greatest fear, it would prove that Xander is the one that always been the real hero, and I don't think Buffy really thinks of him as anything else but her real hero, even if she doesn't say as much. I don't think they put the B/X/A love triangle back in action just of filler, it has a big purpose in the story.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Something keeps bothering me.

Swell?

Angel was saying that he became Twilight and did what he did because it was the way to end the least amount of lives. The thing is, though, that Twilight sent the Vampy Cats out. Sure, half a million were heading towards Scotland to kill the slayers, but what about the rest of the shipments? One of the slayers (don't know if we ever got a name) says that the product is going global, and the MDHP webcomic shows kids playing with vampy cats. Also, that webcomic confirms that it wasn't just the toys heading towards the slayers that were evil--the kids in the commercial turn evil too.

What I'm getting at here is this: Angel says he did was he did because, if he just sat back and did nothing, the governments of the world would have killed all the slayers. I'm unsure where sending a bunch of evil, murderous toys to the world's children comes into play there.

Yeah... everything Angel said to Buffy here was a lie.

That he hadn't killed anyone? Lie. That he was only trying to mitigate the anti-Slayer violence initiated by others? Lie. That creating more Slayers unbalances the good/evil axis? Lie.

 

[sosa lola]

Okay, just read the issue.

Then wondered...

Are we all reading the same issue?

I thought it was really good. I really felt Buffy's rage, the way she keeps punching Angel, the way she wanted to stake him with a whole tree. Buffy wanting to believe it was Angelus, asking the right questions, screaming the F word.... I didn't see a slut or a whore. I saw feelings of betrayal, pain, anger, shock... all the right feelings.

The glow obviously had something to do with the change of her attitude, it's probably what's affecting Angel as well. I'm not sure why is Angel like this? I don't know what happened in LA, why Angel and Buffy are are getting stronger. I actually told my cousin -who hadn't read issue 32- to wait until the whole arc is finished. Everything would make sense by then. I hope.

Oh, and Willow's facial expression when she said "I think they're F-ing" reflects all the angry posts I've read today and yesterday. :lol:

 

[Frketson]

I actually told my cousin -who hadn't read issue 32- to wait until the whole arc is finished. Everything would make sense by then. I hope.

Thats exactly what i think (and hope) as well.

I think everyone just needs to relax a bit and let the season FINISH before doing any complaining. I completely trust Joss, and when has he ever let us down?

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I completely trust Joss, and when has he ever let us down?

That depends on how you define "letting us down."

But I agree that I will reserve final judgment until the end of the arc, when I see where they're going with this.

Monthly bits and pieces is really not the right format for this story, I'm afraid. I wish they'd just release a trade paperback with a complete arc every 6 months.

 

[white avenger]

This whole thing is beginning to remind me of the old Chinese curse about living in interesting times. Well, things are seeming to get REAL interesting around here.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

That depends on how you define "letting us down."

But I agree that I will reserve final judgment until the end of the arc, when I see where they're going with this.

Monthly bits and pieces is really not the right format for this story, I'm afraid. I wish they'd just release a trade paperback with a complete arc every 6 months.

I read The Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul after the Buffy & Angel titles got me into comics. And while there were four titles involved, each issue would pick up where the most recent issue left off, jumping from each characters' different point-of-view.

I'd actually like that best:
Week 1.) Willow: 8am-10am
Week 2.) Xander: 11am-1pm
Week 3.) Buffy: 2pm-5pm
Week 4.) Giles & Faith: 6pm-10pm

That way each title still only publishes one issue per month, but the story continues every week.

 

[VisionGuy]

I completely trust Joss, and when has he ever let us down?

Personally, he's left me down a bunch of times.

Cordelia's downfall in AtS season 4.

The potentials storyline.

Kennedy.... period.

Lack of Scoobage in BtVS season 7.

Adam the homicidal Frankenstein as a big bad.

Everyone in AtS dying.

The Jasmine Arc.

Etc.

 

[GrimsWatcher]

Heh, I loved this issue. I didn't expect so much negativity. Andrew, why so dramatic? You always lose it, say you're done, but I know you're not. I guess it's passionate frustration, cause I felt a little like this with Wolves at the Gate. And even if they go against everything you believe with the Angel character and what he's done, I'm sure you'll still be there for season 9 every Wednesday.

Xanders pep talk was great, and I really felt the Buffy/Angel scenes and the dialogue. And I'm not even a shipper. I'm so happy the comics are good again after last years debacle.

The only thing I didn't like in the issue was Andrew, I'm so sick of his character. Dressing him up as many superheroes was so dumb. There's a time to be jokey, and there's a time to be serious, and that was a serious moment. Or should have been.