Discussion of 8.34 "Twilight Part 3" - Released 4/07/10 (Dark Horse)

[pieceofgosa]

• Angel sees Cordy having sex with his young son. Angel didn't abandon the good fight, and continued to rescue them.

To be fair, he did go in the cream puff for a few days until someone (Cordy, I think) told him to "get over it".

 

[AndrewCrossett]

AndrewCrossett's her biggest fan, and he says he assumes she went off to do something proactive. If he's right about that she's in the right. But if she just stormed off in anger to sulk, which is the implication Meltzer's issue had, then she's absolutely useless to the good fight.

Well, they're all being pretty useless right now, aren't they? All they're doing is jabbering on about how the Universe itself is killing humanity and it's the end and it's hopeless, hopeless I tells ya, it's too late and doom doom doom gloom.

Whatever Satsu ran off to do, it can't be any more useless than that.

I'm hoping she goes and finds the Scythe somewhere there in Angel's lair. Could be it's the item that can be used to fight back against Twilight, or it could be it's what's powering Twilight (the Scythe spell in "Chosen" is what started all this, remember) and destroying it will short-circuit the Apocalypse.

Buffy4ever2k10 agrees: You´r right but it looks like Satsu is not really important for the story and i can´t see a greater role for her in all this mess. Yes she slept with Buffy but is that enough to be part of the main story? I guess she has to die. 🙂

Scott Allie has said that she has an important part to play in the outcome of this season. Whether that involves her dying, I couldn't say. I hope not. I know Joss likes her.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Who knows if she actually abondons the fight? She leavs in a huff, she's human, she's hurt, perhaps she's going to calm down and return in the next issue.

It's a battlefield.

You mention Spike, but Spike does also leave in a huff after seeing Buffy kissing Angel, he actually wastes time drawing Angel and punching him out of anger.

There was no imminent threat, and Spike went back to their base of operations. Here, the world's falling apart, and she abandoned the scoobies.

Not to mention that the Angel Buffy kissed in Chosen was still a hero, however, Angel here is a murderer and Buffy is betraying them all now.

Exactly. She should have either tried to figure out what's going on (which she would have if she just asked Giles) or found the biggest sword around and tried to kill Buffy & Angel.

To be fair, he did go in the cream puff for a few days until someone (Cordy, I think) told him to "get over it".

You're leaving out the part where Angel went off to rescue Connor from W&H when he was furious at him. Satsu should either be in "rescue" or "kill" mode, knowing Buffy and Angel are destroying Earth. Not "storm off and sulk" mode.

Well, they're all being pretty useless right now, aren't they? All they're doing is jabbering on about how the Universe itself is killing humanity and it's the end and it's hopeless, hopeless I tells ya, it's too late and doom doom doom gloom.

Yeah, and Dawn's cracking jokes. They are all being useless, but at least figuring out what's going on is somewhat more productive than fleeing in the middle of the apocalypse.

I'm hoping she goes and finds the Scythe somewhere there in Angel's lair. Could be it's the item that can be used to fight back against Twilight, or it could be it's what's powering Twilight (the Scythe spell in "Chosen" is what started all this, remember) and destroying it will short-circuit the Apocalypse

If you're right, then she's definitely the only useful Champion left on Earth. But that certainly wasn't the implication given, and if she has run off to sulk she's no hero.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I know he cares but he is often to willingly to kill somebody off just for the greater good. Angel and Spike are the best examples. I got so pissed and angry when he tried to get rid of Spike through Wood. Why he couldn´t do it himself? I can´t help myself but i like Wesley more then Giles.

Agreed. Giles was never a hero. I'm unsure why some people think of him as such and unsure of why some put him up on a pedestal. He stopped being Buffy's father figure years ago, and stopped being her Watcher years before that. As far as I'm concerned, he has no place in the story anymore. He disrespects Faith, Buffy, and Willow by keeping secrets from them.

I looked closley at all their clothes at this time and i think it really could be Dawn,Willow or even Amy. I want to see Amy or Warren die. They deserve it.

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't be losing any sleep if Warren and Amy died.

If it were Spike in the twilightzone(no pun intended) i would stop reading right now and throw the comic right into a blender. The point is we already saw Spuffy truly happy even when it were only for months. Bangel never had the chance to do what Spike was doing with her(i know about IWRY in Angel). Buffy made it clear that she misses the sex in the beginning of season 8 so she ended up with Satsu in her bedroom. I always thought making Buffy bicurious wouldn´t fit her character. At some point in the story i thought she would sleep with Xander but it never happend. I´m leaning towards Bander now because she deserves a man like him. I could live with that.

I could live with B/X too, but I simply do not think it will happen. Xander knows she doesn't love him. Buffy's too hung up on Angel to give anyone else a real chance. Spike showing up is bound to cause some mixed feelings in her.

btw: I´m curious about the Riley one shot. This is bugging me for some time now but where the hell is Rileys wife?

And the million dollar question! Who knows. Some fans think their marriage was a front all along.

Thinking Angel is under a influence of some power keeps many from us still believing his charcter can be saved. If he is not under some spell or whatever his character would be destroyed. Sorry Angel no redemption for you this time.

Yep, this is it, the issue in a nutshell. We don't know at this point that Angel is under the influence of Twilight, yet I think that's what we're all hoping.

I wouldn't put it past Angel to do all of this willingly. I no longer have any Faith in his character.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Re: Satsu, I agree with AndrewCrossett. I also hope she stormed off and did something.

Agreed. Giles was never a hero.

"She's a hero, you see. She's not like us." I think he'd agree with you, though I'm not sure I do, though I can see your point. (I don't think I have him on a pedestal. I realize he has many flaws.)

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't be losing any sleep if Warren and Amy died.

The Laurel and Hardy of being a dick? Me neither. =\

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Giles & Wesley were more like the Ultimate realization of being a Watcher (kind of ironic as they were both outcasts in the Council). No heroics, no being the example of how the world should be, just calculating fighters. Connor 4.0 is the closest thing to a "Hero" left in the Buffyverse as far as I can see, interesting, because back on Angel S4 he was such a jerk...

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Connor 4.0 is the closest thing to a "Hero" left in the Buffyverse as far as I can see, interesting, because back on Angel S4 he was such a jerk...

What about Spike, though? He's still a Champion. As far as we know, he COULD be trying to stop Twilight, and is being detained in some way. Or maybe he's dead, in which case, his heroics would not be for lack of trying 😉

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

What about Spike, though? He's still a Champion. As far as we know, he COULD be trying to stop Twilight, and is being detained in some way. Or maybe he's dead, in which case, his heroics would not be for lack of trying 😉

lol, I think Spike likes to think of himself as more of an Antihero-Champion, compared to Angel who's a few steps away from a cape & tights 😉

[05x01]
GIRL
(in awe)
What ju—I don't understand.

ANGEL
Look, don't try. Just get yourself home and stay out of dark alleys. You'll be all right.
(smiles, walks away)

VS.

[05x10]
GIRL
(stands, incredulous)
Thank you! Thank you! That thing was gonna kill me!

SPIKE
Well, what do you expect? Out alone in this neighborhood? I got half a mind to kill you myself, you half-wit.

GIRL
What?!

SPIKE
I mean, honestly, what kind of retard wears heels like that in a dark alley? Take 2 steps, break your bloody ankle.

GIRL
I was just trying to get home.

SPIKE
(pushes her shoulder, ushering her down the alley toward a lit street)
Well, get a cab, you moron.
(calling after her as she walks away)
And on the way, if a stranger offers you candy, don't get in the van!
(under his breath)
Stupid cow.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Giles & Wesley were more like the Ultimate realization of being a Watcher (kind of ironic as they were both outcasts in the Council). No heroics, no being the example of how the world should be, just calculating fighters. Connor 4.0 is the closest thing to a "Hero" left in the Buffyverse as far as I can see, interesting, because back on Angel S4 he was such a jerk...

Wesley became a real champion. The wake up call was the whole kidnapping Connor issue. After Connor dumped Angel on the bottom of the ocean he was the only one looking for him. I don´t know the ecaxt timeframe but it was a month or two. He gave his blood to save Angel. After that incident he fell in love with Fred and sacrificed himself for the greater good. He died a real hero!

I miss Wesley in AtF. 🙁

I always found Angels suicide plan was ridicilous. Killing the black thorn was pointless and doomed a whole city. Well done Angel. He never attempted to find the senior partners. Not once. Why? Killing them would be far greater then killing their puppets.

Giles killed Ben and nobody ever found out. He even considered to kill Dawn for the greater good but he never really sacrificed himself. He would do horrible things to save the world but that´s not enough. If you want to be a real hero then you have to fight till the end. Sure in season 7 he fought side by side with all of them but i never saw Giles as a champion. I said it before. Giles has to many secrets and even if he knows what´s going on he doesn´t share it with the rest of the class and he didn´t learned from his mistakes. *sigh*

I´m very angry about Connor and his whole role in season 4. Goddamn it was so freaking annoying. I´m going to kill you Angel...wait a second. Hmmm no but i could never forget that. Jasmine was his downfall. He knew all along what was going on and people acting like zombies made him happy. OKAY! I really hated him at this point. Of course someone had to hit the resetbutton and Connor was finally a normal boy with a family.

In season 5 he became a likeable character for me. Fighting side by side with Angel was great. In AtF he became a real hero. Saving innocents and killing demons suits him more as being a lunatic with super powers. Maybe i´m alone in this but Connor is really obsessed with older women isn´t he?

I guess we will never see Connor,Illyria or Gunn in season 8 because of what´s going on in H.A but im curious how Joss will explain the absence of Angels friends. Sorry but Connor had finally a connection to his father and now he doesn´t even care what he was doing for a whole year? Are the AI crew frozen in time or what? It doesn´t make any sense.

I really want to know what happend to them.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

I miss Wesley in AtF. 🙁

Me too. (It's not called After the Fall anymore, btw. Though the many titles in the series confuse the hell out of me.)

I always found Angels suicide plan was ridicilous. Killing the black thorn was pointless and doomed a whole city. Well done Angel. He never attempted to find the senior partners. Not once. Why? Killing them would be far greater then killing their puppets.

He thought that the Senior Partners would just punish them, not the whole city. He greatly underestimated them...so I guess I agree in a way. 🙁
He did look for them in season 2, IIRC, when he was trying to get to 'the home office'.

In season 5 he became a likeable character for me. Fighting side by side with Angel was great. In AtF he became a real hero. Saving innocents and killing demons suits him more as being a lunatic with super powers.

Agreed.

Maybe i´m alone in this but Connor is really obsessed with older women isn´t he?

When last I saw him in the IDW series he was being pervy on the were-cat, Dez, I think. It's kinda funny.


I hope we get some sort of mention of the Cordy, Connor, and the rest if not an appearance.

 

[citiegal17]

Wesley became a real champion. The wake up call was the whole kidnapping Connor issue. After Connor dumped Angel on the bottom of the ocean he was the only one looking for him. I don´t know the ecaxt timeframe but it was a month or two. He gave his blood to save Angel. After that incident he fell in love with Fred and sacrificed himself for the greater good. He died a real hero!

I miss Wesley in AtF. 🙁

I always found Angels suicide plan was ridicilous. Killing the black thorn was pointless and doomed a whole city. Well done Angel. He never attempted to find the senior partners. Not once. Why? Killing them would be far greater then killing their puppets.

Giles killed Ben and nobody ever found out. He even considered to kill Dawn for the greater good but he never really sacrificed himself. He would do horrible things to save the world but that´s not enough. If you want to be a real hero then you have to fight till the end. Sure in season 7 he fought side by side with all of them but i never saw Giles as a champion. I said it before. Giles has to many secrets and even if he knows what´s going on he doesn´t share it with the rest of the class and he didn´t learned from his mistakes. *sigh*

I´m very angry about Connor and his whole role in season 4. Goddamn it was so freaking annoying. I´m going to kill you Angel...wait a second. Hmmm no but i could never forget that. Jasmine was his downfall. He knew all along what was going on and people acting like zombies made him happy. OKAY! I really hated him at this point. Of course someone had to hit the resetbutton and Connor was finally a normal boy with a family.

In season 5 he became a likeable character for me. Fighting side by side with Angel was great. In AtF he became a real hero. Saving innocents and killing demons suits him more as being a lunatic with super powers. Maybe i´m alone in this but Connor is really obsessed with older women isn´t he?

I guess we will never see Connor,Illyria or Gunn in season 8 because of what´s going on in H.A but im curious how Joss will explain the absence of Angels friends. Sorry but Connor had finally a connection to his father and now he doesn´t even care what he was doing for a whole year? Are the AI crew frozen in time or what? It doesn´t make any sense.

I really want to know what happend to them.

I agree with the whole Black Thorn thing accomplished nothing and made Angel look either like a moron, or plain evil. I'm not sure how I can see him as heroic if he values the deaths of some demons over the deaths of his friends. Thats just bad logic in general, I sure hope they don't take that logic again in this or I think they risk alienating a bunch of the BVS fans who actually want good old fashioned white hat hero's.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I always found Angels suicide plan was ridicilous. Killing the black thorn was pointless and doomed a whole city. Well done Angel. He never attempted to find the senior partners. Not once. Why? Killing them would be far greater then killing their puppets.

Check out "Reprise"

In season 5 he became a likeable character for me. Fighting side by side with Angel was great. In AtF he became a real hero. Saving innocents and killing demons suits him more as being a lunatic with super powers. Maybe i´m alone in this but Connor is really obsessed with older women isn´t he?

I don't know about Gwen's age, but in real life, Kartheiser (Connor) is three years older than Davalos (Gwen).

I guess we will never see Connor,Illyria or Gunn in season 8 because of what´s going on in H.A but im curious how Joss will explain the absence of Angels friends. Sorry but Connor had finally a connection to his father and now he doesn´t even care what he was doing for a whole year? Are the AI crew frozen in time or what? It doesn´t make any sense.

huh?

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

I think H.A. might mean Hell-A? But they're not in hell anymore. [shrug] Or maybe it was a simple typo. Or maybe I should shut up and let them explain it. heh...

 

[pieceofgosa]

Maybe i´m alone in this but Connor is really obsessed with older women isn´t he?

From Origin, AtS 5x18

ILLYRIA
Your body warms.
(to Angel) This one is lusting after me.

CONNOR
Oh... no, I"”I"”
(looks down, chuckling embarrassed)
It's just that"”it's the outfit.
(whispers to Angel) I guess I've always had a thing for older women.

ANGEL
(under his breath)
They were supposed to fix that.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

From Origin, AtS 5x18

True, but that was pre-Brain Reboot, and Gwen's arguably 3 years younger than Connor.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Yeah, and Dawn's cracking jokes. They are all being useless, but at least figuring out what's going on is somewhat more productive than fleeing in the middle of the apocalypse.

Why? The only thing they're coming up with is "we're screwed." Seems like being screwed over here is the same as being screwed over there.

And where would she "flee" to, exactly?

The others certainly seem to understand that she doesn't want to just stand there watching the woman she loves have sex with the destroyer of humanity.

If you're right, then she's definitely the only useful Champion left on Earth. But that certainly wasn't the implication given, and if she has run off to sulk she's no hero.

There's certainly no shortage of "no heroes" in this story, it seems. I guess we all make our own judgments on that.

I still think she's the only one of them reacting believably.

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

I think H.A. might mean Hell-A? But they're not in hell anymore. [shrug] Or maybe it was a simple typo. Or maybe I should shut up and let them explain it. heh...

Yes you are right i meant Hell-A. I thought in this timeline they are still in hell? Im reading AtF too and there is no sign that Angel disappeared for a whole year so far. Andrew said it´s canon but the timelines don´t really fit. After the Connor incident and L.A. went back to normal i always thought the time in Hell-A passed in the real world too. Great now i´m really confused.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Yes you are right i meant Hell-A. I thought in this timeline they are still in hell? Im reading AtF too and there is no sign that Angel disappeared for a whole year so far. Andrew said it´s canon but the timelines don´t really fit. After the Connor incident and L.A. went back to normal i always thought the time in Hell-A passed in the real world too. Great now i´m really confused.

I stopped reading ATF - I got confused, too. I don't even bother with the Aftermath. The only comic I keep up with is Season 8, because it's canon. *sigh* Although I wish it wasn't.

Question: is Angel under the influence of Twilight, or is he willingly going along with it? What do you think.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

Yes you are right i meant Hell-A. I thought in this timeline they are still in hell? Im reading AtF too and there is no sign that Angel disappeared for a whole year so far. Andrew said it´s canon but the timelines don´t really fit. After the Connor incident and L.A. went back to normal i always thought the time in Hell-A passed in the real world too. Great now i´m really confused.

After the Fall ended in issue 17. But sometime after that there was an Epilogue. And then there was a two issue arc that focused on Dru in an asylum pre-Hell-A where she had a premonition about what would happen.

By the time season 8 started, LA would have been returned to it's normal state, I think.

I stopped reading ATF - I got confused, too. I don't even bother with the Aftermath. The only comic I keep up with is Season 8, because it's canon. *sigh* Although I wish it wasn't.

How far did you get in AtF? It's canon but Aftermath apparently isn't.

Question: is Angel under the influence of Twilight, or is he willingly going along with it? What do you think.

I don't know. Either of those things is very likely. 🙁 If he's under the influence, he still has a chance at being a redeemable character. If he's willingly going along with it, I don't see how...Unless the creative team is being more clever than they have been all season. =\

Despite all the fan-fiction-y sex scenes this issue has gotten me a little more interested in the rest of the season.

 

[GrimsWatcher]

I'm with Joan, I stopped reading Angel as well. I stuck with it till around issue 28 or so and suffered through Aftermath. The Drusilla two part story was solid at least. I think IDW is overusing the Angel property with spin offs, episode specific issues, etc. I'm happy to be free of it honestly.

I think if a Buffy movie were to ever happen (yeah it won't) Whedon would scrap the comics and refocus for the film. Putting all this emphasis on season 8 being canon, it takes away from just sitting back and going with the craziness. It's more enjoyable to see it as a fun read and not get so insanely invested and frustrated. Although I do get irritated too, I'll never get past Batsu and vamps being popular. But I am more relaxed about stuff lately.

Anyone think Whedon has ideas for a movie he's been sitting on for ages now and he's holding back those concepts and leaving them out of season 8 in hopes to one day be able to use them?

I'm confused by people that hate the comics (not talking about anyone on this board), and have basically hated them since 2007, but continue reading them, then spending a lot of time and effort discussing them in great detail and sharing their anger over it all. If I hate something I usually move on, hence goodbye Angel comics. I don't even know what's going on in those anymore.

Anyone ever go to IMDB to check opinions on a movie, then leave for 4 months, go back and the same person who hated it is still there relentlessly talking about it? It's all very crazy to me.