Discussion of 8.34 "Twilight Part 3" - Released 4/07/10 (Dark Horse)

I'm confused by people that hate the comics (not talking about anyone on this board), and have basically hated them since 2007, but continue reading them, then spending a lot of time and effort discussing them in great detail and sharing their anger over it all. If I hate something I usually move on, hence goodbye Angel comics. I don't even know what's going on in those anymore.
The trouble is, even though the comics have turned from "strange, but let's see where it goes" to "what a regrettable waste of perfectly good ink and paper", they unfortunately are canon... so it's no surprise that we're discussing how a show whose previous seasons were great enough to keep us talking about it all years after the last episode aired on TV has now turned into crapola. Quite a bunch of people hate BtVS S4 or S6 and AtS S4 or S5, yet to noone's surprise, those seasons are still being passionately discussed, too; the same applies here. 🙂
 
No offense to anyone, but I think Joss may be losing his touch. Between this and how disappointing 2/3 of Dollhouse was...

I found myself thinking that. Then I thought about how every time I turn the page of this comic I'm amazed once again by what I see. Not always happy... not usually happy, recently... but always amazed. And I think about how easily he swats down every one of my carefully-thought-out theories about what's going on. And then I think about how I'm practically going insane the first Wednesday of every month with eagerness to get to the comic shop and read the next chapter, even when I know I'm going to hate what happens in it.

He may very well end up telling a story I don't like when all is said and done... but that doesn't mean he's losing his touch. Far from it, I think.
 
I found myself thinking that. Then I thought about how every time I turn the page of this comic I'm amazed once again by what I see. Not always happy... not usually happy, recently... but always amazed. And I think about how easily he swats down every one of my carefully-thought-out theories about what's going on. And then I think about how I'm practically going insane the first Wednesday of every month with eagerness to get to the comic shop and read the next chapter, even when I know I'm going to hate what happens in it.

He may very well end up telling a story I don't like when all is said and done... but that doesn't mean he's losing his touch. Far from it, I think.

I sure hope you're right, but in terms of his resume, his career was at its height 8-ish years ago. Dr. Horrible has been his one hit for half a decade, and that was a tiny production.

In terms of story I'd imagine most fans during BS3 would have loved to see babies and white-picket fences for Buffy & Angel. We knew it wouldn't happen, but we got great stories instead. The thing is, here the story hasn't been so great. Rather than clever, and emotional, it's been splashy & flashy.

Don't know about you, but Time of Your Life was the last story where my reaction was "wow" at its conclusion...
 
Don't know about you, but Time of Your Life was the last story where my reaction was "wow" at its conclusion...

"No Future For You" was the last arc where I had that reaction, though there were things here and there after that I liked or was okay with...

I re-read "Time of Your Life" the other day and I liked it a lot better this time.
 
Crazy theory the 756th.

We all know Drogyn was killed by Angel to proof his loyalty to the black thorn but what happend to the deeper well after that? Wasn´t Drogyn the last guardian? It was a prison for all kinds of gods even the old ones. Right? This would explain the "older party".

Maybe Twilight was in the deeper well too and after Angel killed Drogyn it was set free. Twilights reward or punishment was to make him a god but it came with a high price.

I still can´t see the point why Angel chose to become Twilight in the first place and i´m still confused about it. Perhaps there is no logical explanantion he just snapped and that´s it. Sounds lame i know but wiping out mankind is nothing a sane person would ever consider to do.

Crazy theory the 757th.

What if Twilight is still captured in some place(deeper well,hellmouth or another dimension) like the first and needs a vessel to escape? A rebirth like Jasmine comes in mind. It can control Angel but it can´t take a corporial form at this time. All the things that Angel and Buffy experiencing right now could also be just illusions to lure them into a trap.

The earth is now overrun by all kinds of demons and it just needs both of them to be reborn again. So they are now out of harms way. If Twilight wants to rule the world and the demons it wouldn´t make sense to destroy it. Even Illyria wanted to take over the world and if Twilight is really a old one it could be its agenda too.

Just another theory. 🙂
 
Crazy theory the 756th.

We all know Drogyn was killed by Angel to proof his loyalty to the black thorn but what happend to the deeper well after that? Wasn´t Drogyn the last guardian? It was a prison for all kinds of gods even the old ones. Right? This would explain the "older party".

Maybe Twilight was in the deeper well too and after Angel killed Drogyn it was set free. Twilights reward or punishment was to make him a god but it came with a high price.

I still can´t see the point why Angel chose to become Twilight in the first place and i´m still confused about it. Perhaps there is no logical explanantion he just snapped and that´s it. Sounds lame i know but wiping out mankind is nothing a sane person would ever consider to do.
I've thought about something similar in the past, but the implication seems to be that Twilight predates the Old Ones (like the First).

I also wonder who the current guardian of the Deeper Well is... I believe Joss said his first choice was Giles, but that's obviously not the case.


Crazy theory the 757th.

What if Twilight is still captured in some place(deeper well,hellmouth or another dimension) like the first and needs a vessel to escape? A rebirth like Jasmine comes in mind. It can control Angel but it can´t take a corporial form at this time. All the things that Angel and Buffy experiencing right now could also be just illusions to lure them into a trap.

The earth is now overrun by all kinds of demons and it just needs both of them to be reborn again. So they are now out of harms way. If Twilight wants to rule the world and the demons it wouldn´t make sense to destroy it. Even Illyria wanted to take over the world and if Twilight is really a old one it could be its agenda too.

Just another theory. 🙂

See that's what kind of bugs me... Even if Giles can't find that weapon, wouldn't recruiting Willow & Illyria be enough to put up a heck of a fight against Twilight? In the pseud-canon book IDW recently put out (Fallen Angel Reborn), Illyria appeared at least as strong as Supergirl. And Willow can also make herself impervious...
 
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Buffy4ever2k10
Yes it seems nobody really wants to defeat Twilight.Illyria,Groo and even Connor are the perfect fighters so why they haven´t showed up yet? It´s strange but i also think the scoobies weren´t enough trying to find a way killing Twilight.
I think "Twilight" is actually a mystical/evolutionary event rather than an actual being that can be killed. We're told "the Universe" is behind it, but it's unclear whether it's supposed to be just a natural evolutionary process or if there's a conscious "intelligent design" making it all happen.
 
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Buffy4ever2k10
Maybe it is but Angel is somehow possessed by that force so they have to kill him and right now i´m at a point i wish they would actually do it.
See that's what kind of bugs me... Even if Giles can't find that weapon, wouldn't recruiting Willow & Illyria be enough to put up a heck of a fight against Twilight? In the pseud-canon book IDW recently put out (Fallen Angel Reborn), Illyria appeared at least as strong as Supergirl. And Willow can also make herself impervious...

Exactly. Why the hell is nobody trying to get in contact with the AI(Angel Investigations) crew? Like i said Illyria,Groo,Willow,Connor and even Gunn were the perfect allies against Twilight. Maybe they can´t defeat him but isnt it worth at least to try saving the world?

But now all we got is scared slayers and a bunch of scoobies who are acting wierd since the whole Twilight issue began. Hell Illyria could have taken out the whole army of soldiers single handed. I don´t believe not for one second that Willow is powerless right now as she pretends to be. Once again it looks like she is worried that the power could overwhelm her and she turns evil but honestley screw this if it´s the only way to defeat Twilight do it for gods sake.

All they have done is running away like little children and hide from the big bad man. We saw what happens when they do that in season 5 and it doesn´t end well. Buffy never retreated again after Dawns kidnapping. She always stood up and fought for her loved ones and now all of a sudden she bones her enemy and dooms mankind? HELLO? This doesn´t make sense at all.

I´m sick of it.

Fight for the world like you always do. It doesn´t matter if you win or lose at least you go down fighting.

I hope Faith and Spike kick Twilights ass i don´t care anymore.
 
I understand the real-world reason why the A.I. crew is nowhere to be seen (because IDW has the rights to those characters), but I certainly hope we get an in-story explanation of why they aren't around, either fighting Angel or helping him.
 
Eh in real life terms this issue wasn't that long, at the start of the issue everyone finds out about Angel and then Giles goes into his explanation, so what about 10 mins?

They wouldn't have rang the AI gang in that time.

As for why they wouldn't ring them generally, they never had before why would they start now.

I don't understand why AI gang haven't tried to contact them though.
 
Eh in real life terms this issue wasn't that long, at the start of the issue everyone finds out about Angel and then Giles goes into his explanation, so what about 10 mins?

They wouldn't have rang the AI gang in that time.

As for why they wouldn't ring them generally, they never had before why would they start now.

I don't understand why AI gang haven't tried to contact them though.

They knew their enemy for a year now and Twilight was never the easiest opponent for them. Twilight treatened the slayers and the scoobies many times so why they don´t asked for help? This is what keeps me wondering all the time. They know now for a fact Twilight is Angel and it´s a shocker but they never really tried to find out who Twilight and what his agenda was. Playing hide and seek was not the smartest idea.This bugs me that´s all.

Imo they just waited too long and now it seems to late.
 
They knew their enemy for a year now and Twilight was never the easiest opponent for them. Twilight treatened the slayers and the scoobies many times so why they don´t asked for help? This is what keeps me wondering all the time. They know now for a fact Twilight is Angel and it´s a shocker but they never really tried to find out who Twilight and what his agenda was. Playing hide and seek was not the smartest idea.This bugs me that´s all.

Imo they just waited too long and now it seems to late.

Glory was going to rip open the walls of the world and Buffy was willing to die to stop it.
One of their own turned evil and tried to destroy the world.
And the First started all out war on them, and loads of people died, and they didn't call AI.

Why would they now?

There has been a few lines where they've mentioned trying to find out who he is, they also sent Riley under cover with him - it's not like he's going to be in a book, they literally have to pull off his mask to find out who he is.
 
Hell, maybe this is all an illusion and Buffy is bat-sh*t crazy insane, like we saw in 'Normal Again.'
 
Black Eye Guy
Black Eye Guy
Thats possible, bloody anything is possible at the moment, lol!
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Buffy4ever2k10
I really hate this episode. The end was so disturbing.
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InsaneMystic
if the Bangel ship doesn't get sunk and stays sunk in the end, I'll join the "Normal Again is the one true reality" bandwagon for good.
Hell, maybe this is all an illusion and Buffy is bat-sh*t crazy insane, like we saw in 'Normal Again.'

This is the difference between Whedon then and now. Personally, I loved every episode of the Buffyverse, and the only three issues I had were Connor/Cordy pairing, Drugged up Willow, and Dawn's mystical appearance. With Dawn, it just wasn't a groundbreaking concept, to the contrary, it's an old concept mocked by most writers with integrity--suddenly bringing in a younger character to spice things up (most famously, and before my time, "Cousin Oliver" on the Brady Bunch, and pretty much every sitcom passed its prime).

And Connor/Cordy was just absurd, arguably worse when we found out that Jasmine raped Cordy's mind and body. And I just didn't like drugged up Willow. But even with those three concepts, I didn't complain, as I figured they'd resolve themselves (and they did to some extent).

I've been one of BS8's biggest fans from day one (well two months into its run). And for the first time ever, I think Joss has taken turns which he won't be able to fix without a big reboot.
1.) Satsu - I don't think he's ever given a character such shabby treatment. He certainly was more fair to Riley, and Spike & Angel are no contest in comparison.

2.) Public Vampires - it may be the newest thing, but it just hasn't worked for the Buffyverse. It's not remotely believable that the general public wouldn't be going through mass hysteria trying to exterminate them.

3.) Buffy & Angel are ruined barring major explanations.

re: AndrewC on IDW's AI, Joss and even Chris Ryall (IDW) have implied that all characters are up for grabs for both companies as long as the titular character is the one owned by the publishing company. Giles found out about Illyria from Day One, it's sheer stupidity he isn't trying to recruit the most powerful Champion into this fight.
 
IDW's AI, Joss and even Chris Ryall (IDW) have implied that all characters are up for grabs for both companies as long as the titular character is the one owned by the publishing company. Giles found out about Illyria from Day One, it's sheer stupidity he isn't trying to recruit the most powerful Champion into this fight.

But, if Joss was, as I suspect, the actual one who sent the "We don't trust you," message via Andrew upon retrieval of Dana, then he would still consider Angel, Spike, and everyone associated with Wolfram & Hart to be suspect at best, totally evil at worst, and completely untrustworthy in either case. Plus, Illyria is a HELL GOD, and Giles has had some rather unpleasant experiences with one of those in the past He would no more consider asking her for help than he would consider apologizing to Spike for conspiring with Wood to bring about his murder, despite the fact that Buffy was proven 100% correct in her support of Spike.
 
2.) Public Vampires - it may be the newest thing, but it just hasn't worked for the Buffyverse. It's not remotely believable that the general public wouldn't be going through mass hysteria trying to exterminate them.

I'm thinking that issue is now explained as humanity being pre-conditioned by "The Universe" to accept and help bring about its own destruction by Twilight. It wouldn't be the first time in history that a civilization has just inexplicably lost its collective mind and invited the barbarians in the front gates. It wouldn't even be the second time, in fact.

If Joss can make the whole Twilight/Universe issue make sense by the end of the season, then I'm sure that will make sense too.
 
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Angel Investigations don't exist any more. But that doesn't mean that Spike, Illyria & Connor aren't fighting against evil in their own ways.
 
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