Episode Discussion Discussion of 8.36 "Last Gleaming Part 1" - Released 9/1/10 (Dark Horse)

[Hero]

Haven't ordered the issue yet with scool and vacation and everything going on. Would one of you awesome people discussing it care to type up a good summary for me? or else i might explode because it sounded like Buffy may have gotten back on track...finally.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

My wish is that by the end of this season, Buffy will no longer be in a place where she calls the day she started an Apocalypse and killed God knows how many people "the bestest day of her life."

 

[Kean]

My wish is that by the end of this season, Buffy will no longer be in a place where she calls the day she started an Apocalypse and killed God knows how many people "the bestest day of her life."

Lets be fair here, she had no idea she had done that when she said it. It was only after when she was in the ship with Spike and he told her the extent of the situation that she realises. She had no idea what would happen anymore than she did during her 17th birthday. Cut her some slack.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Lets be fair here, she had no idea she had done that when she said it. It was only after when she was in the ship with Spike and he told her the extent of the situation that she realises. She had no idea what would happen anymore than she did during her 17th birthday. Cut her some slack.

Well, she knew that the demon army was here because of what she and Angel did, and she knew that they were attacking all over the world, because she sent Angel off to defend Slayers elsewhere. Perhaps she didn't know about the worldwide ecological collapse or the fact that the demons were here to destroy everything, not just to kill Slayers.

I wonder if Riley is on that ship. If so, that's all her former lovers gathered around her. Except good old Parker.

Looks like Team Angel is the definitive winner, though...

And is that Joss I see, coming this way with a sledgehammer in his hands and an evil grin on his face? 😱

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Kean - I wrote a lengthy reply, then I rereaded it and realized that my arguments may offend you, as a shipper of the couple - and I don't want to offend anybody.

I started to edit my reply and then I decided not to post at all. Because it's clear to me that we'll never be able to convince each other about anything. Any debate would only make us both feeling bad and defensive. So let's agree to disagree and not to spoil our enjoyment of the show. I eagerly admit my shipper bias!

I'll post some of my Bangel fanart in the shipper zone to make up for my initial post 🙂

Icarium - I think that characters going evil and then being redeemed is one of the most fascinating narrative ploys.

There usually are consequences in Jossverse. And I'm almost sure that there will be huge consequences of space-frak - for both Buffy and Angel. Although Buffy is hardly guilty of anything: the way I see it, she was manipulated, drugged and abused to procreate Twilight. So, to quote Kean - cut her some slack.

 

[sosa lola]

Okay, so we're not going to get a Xander/Spike scene sadly, so I wrote one.

I wonder if Riley is on that ship. If so, that's all her former lovers gathered around her. Except good old Parker.

Riley isn't on it. He's clearly too injured that he stayed at Oz'. Perhaps they called his wife to come.

 

[Icarium]

There usually are consequences in Jossverse.

Really? How many of the characters I quoted in my previous post were adequately punished for their crimes? Only Angel with his stay in Acathla's dimension and even this happened off-screen, not to mention that he shook it off in like two weeks. I am not saying that everyone needs to be severely punished but when most of them don't face any serious consequences the unfortunate implications are quite clear. We need to look no further than Anya to see that ME can easily treats serial murders as a joke.

Icarium - I think that characters going evil and then being redeemed is one of the most fascinating narrative ploys.

It needs to be written well, though. Out of all the attempts in the Buffyverse, I think only "Dark Wesley" qualifies as well written and he never really murdered anybody, so it's a bit of a different case than the rest. Angel in S2 of BtVS qualifies too but his contrived return in S3 ruined a lot of the impact of the story for me. Someone on a different forum put it superbly - "For ME evil is a suit you can put on one day and send to the cleaners when you don't need it". In Twangel's case he even has a literal evil suit. 🙂

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Sosa Lola - I love your story! I haven't commented on your LJ, because I was reading in metro (I open tabs with interesting posts on my netbook and read in transport). The parallel between Xander's feelings in "Entropy" and Spike's emotions in #36 is very poignant.

Icarium - I guess we must also consider such things as genre conventions and suspension-of-disbelief. If we judge all the characters from the real life POV, then all of them should be serving their time in jail. But this is not real life. This is a supernatural epic. The genre that demands certain suspension-of-disbelief. I think that even the biggest Angel haters wouldn'y want to watch a show about Angel's tortures in hell for 100 seasons. 🙂

I know that many people think that Angel will be completely whitewashed/rehabilitated/redeemed for his deeds as Twilight. While many people think that there is nothing to whitewash/rehabilitate/redeem, because he did it for the greater good and for Buffy's safety.

We'll see how this story will develop.

 

[Icarium]

Icarium - I guess we must also consider such things as genre conventions and suspension-of-disbelief. If we judge all the characters from the real life POV, then all of them should be serving their time in jail. But this is not real life. This is a supernatural epic. The genre that demands certain suspension-of-disbelief. I think that even the biggest Angel haters wouldn'y want to watch a show about Angel's tortures in hell for 100 seasons.

I have read or watched tons of sci-fi/fantasy books and movies. I don't really see whitewashing of the characters' transgressions as one of the genre conventions. In any event, my point that so far in the series more often than not sins of the main characters have been swept under the carpet still stands. Heck, even in Whedon's other shows there are examples of serial killers getting back into the fold for no apparent logical reason. He is the "do that guy" when it comes to giving characters he likes a carte blanche to do anything and get away with it. Apart from Anya who died in a battle to save the world and wasn't punished or anything like that, all the important characters Whedon has killed off have been quite innocent compared to much of the rest of cast.

 

[VampireJason]

Wow, talk about negativity towards the comics. Angel tried to keep the body count down as much as he could. Two hundred slayers died in the process, I'm well aware. However, just think about how many more would've died if everyone just went all free lance with no apparent leader?! It would be anarchy. Takes this quote from Angel Season Three

Lorne:You think there's something more you could've done? You did everything you could with the knowledge you had, just like Wesley. Maybe the way to start forgiving yourself is by learning to start forgiving him.

That's pretty much how I feel about the Twilight situation right now. And about the white-washing?

ANGEL:Spent hundreds of years, tortured in a Hell Dimension to the point of insanity for what he did just in Buffy Season Two.

SPIKE:Spent weeks in a high school basement, racked with every bit of guilt and later beaten and tortured by Wood, not to mention the chip in his head going off without even having to hurt another human. He went through a lot of pain when you think about it for what he did

WILLOW:Lost the trust of her friends and had to spend time with Giles. Think about it, when flayed bodies started showing up who did they start blaming? Her! Even though she had nothing to do with it, they just assumed.

ANYA:Well, she's dead. She had the option to run from the apocalypse but she stayed behind and fought which ultimately led to her demise

FAITH:She spent time in prison! Willingly. And even then she was still regarded as a rebel slayer, still criticized by everyone around her.

Well I put in my two cents.

 

[white avenger]

Angel tried to keep the body count down as much as he could. Two hundred slayers died in the process, I'm well aware. However, just think about how many more would've died if everyone just went all free lance with no apparent leader?

How many would or might have died if Angel had not become Twilight is no valid argument. The fact remains that Angel willingly took it upon himself to kill several hundred Slayers, plus however many others, because he was told that if he didn't, a much larger number would die. Those hundreds of men and women died for Angel's interpretation of "the greater good." We can't use the "It was Angelus, not Angel," argument, or even the "He was being controlled by an evil force," explanation. Angel knew exactly what he was doing, and he took the actions that he took of his own free will. He placed Buffy's welfare and the possibility of a life together with her above the lives of everyone and every THING in the entire universe. The bottom line is that now Angel and Angelus are both mass murderers. Short of yet another "roll back time and change what happened" spell, I don't see how he is going to get out of this "alive."

 

[VampireJason]

Well I can't make you forgive Angel. But to be fair, did we see Angel brutally murder anyone with his own hands? Not that I'm aware of. Yeah he smacked around Satsu, yeah he hit Faith, I can't justify that. But I'm just saying I have faith that Angel did what he had to do for the good of the world and in the end there will be a good explanation for his actions. That's all I have to say

 

[sosa lola]

Sosa Lola - I love your story! I haven't commented on your LJ, because I was reading in metro (I open tabs with interesting posts on my netbook and read in transport). The parallel between Xander's feelings in "Entropy" and Spike's emotions in #36 is very poignant.

Thank you, sweetie, though it was fangfaceandrea who thought about the parallel first and inspired me to write the fic.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

JASMINE: "Yes, I murdered thousands to save billions. This world is doomed to drown in its own blood now."

ANGEL: "The price was too high, Jasmine. Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing."

People are not numbers, and nobody has the right to sit and judge which innocents are worthy of living and which of dying.

 

[VampireJason]

Can you pick out the one word there that states the big difference between Angel and Jasmine:

Jasmine controlled people, took away their free will. Angel didn't.

 

[Icarium]

Wow, talk about negativity towards the comics. Angel tried to keep the body count down as much as he could. Two hundred slayers died in the process, I'm well aware. However, just think about how many more would've died if everyone just went all free lance with no apparent leader?! It would be anarchy.

Says who? Twangel? Why should we believe him, really? Why is he so certain this is the only opossible course of action? Why is he deluded enough to think that Buffy can agree with the idea? Now, don't get me wrong, I love stories about tough choices. But in order for this type of story to work the readers need to know very well the motivation of the characters who takes upon themselves to make the choices. Judging by the comments in the net, I am far from the only one who frankly has no clue why exactly Angel did what he did.

Well I can't make you forgive Angel. But to be fair, did we see Angel brutally murder anyone with his own hands? Not that I'm aware of.

I hate to invoke the Godwin law but Hitler didn't kill many with his own hands either...

ANGEL:Spent hundreds of years, tortured in a Hell Dimension to the point of insanity for what he did just in Buffy Season Two.

SPIKE:Spent weeks in a high school basement, racked with every bit of guilt and later beaten and tortured by Wood, not to mention the chip in his head going off without even having to hurt another human. He went through a lot of pain when you think about it for what he did

WILLOW:Lost the trust of her friends and had to spend time with Giles. Think about it, when flayed bodies started showing up who did they start blaming? Her! Even though she had nothing to do with it, they just assumed.

ANYA:Well, she's dead. She had the option to run from the apocalypse but she stayed behind and fought which ultimately led to her demise

FAITH:She spent time in prison! Willingly. And even then she was still regarded as a rebel slayer, still criticized by everyone around her.

I wrote a long post in answer to that then my PC crushed so I lost it. So I will just say that I don't think any of this counts as much in the way of consequences to me. Three years in jail is a joke, considering Faith has killed more than one person, Angel's stay in hell didn't change him one iota (Buffy is way more traumatized by her stay in Heaven!) and Anya had a heroic death which was not in any way, shape or form caused by her past crimes coming back to bite her in the ass. Heck, her serial murders actually gave her more than a millennium longer lifespan, so if anything she is the embodiment of the "evil pays off" mentality...

 

[citiegal17]

Can you pick out the one word there that states the big difference between Angel and Jasmine:

Jasmine controlled people, took away their free will. Angel didn't.

Yes, he did when he mind raped his friends in season 5 they didn't with their free will give him the right to mind rape them, every deciscion made after the mind rape was tainted by the loss of memories, and memories and experiences shape the deciscions we make.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Can you pick out the one word there that states the big difference between Angel and Jasmine:

Jasmine controlled people, took away their free will. Angel didn't.

That has nothing to do with it. Angel was talking about the fact that Jasmine assigned herself the right to decide who lives and who dies, with no other criteria than her own whim, because she had the power. As Twilight, Angel took it upon himself to decide that certain innocent (heroic, in fact) people were expendable and others were not. And he did it all in the name of some unexplained, vague decree by "Higher Powers", taken entirely on faith. I don't know if he trusts the Powers with his life, but he sure trusts them with other people's lives.

But what's done is done. It remains to be seen what he's going to do about it.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I wrote a long post in answer to that then my PC crushed so I lost it. So I will just say that I don't think any of this counts as much in the way of consequences to me. Three years in jail is a joke, considering Faith has killed more than one person, Angel's stay in hell didn't change him one iota (Buffy is way more traumatized by her stay in Heaven!) and Anya had a heroic death which was not in any way, shape or form caused by her past crimes coming back to bite her in the ass. Heck, her serial murders actually gave her more than a millennium longer lifespan, so if anything she is the embodiment of the "evil pays off" mentality...

Didnt Faith have a life sentence or whatever? She only stayed in jail for 3 years because she had to break out to save the world. She knows what she did in her past and she isnt trying to put herself above it now but she is doing more good running from the law then being in a jail cell. Espically during S4/5.

And why would Angels stay in hell change him anyway? He wasnt Angel when he was Angelus. Not as if he went and killed all those people in S2 with a soul and went to hell to make up for that.

I dont see Anyas days as a vengence demon as saying "being evil pays off", she lost who she was during those thousands of years as a vegence demon and once she regained her humanity a 2nd time she thought she could be "emotionless" again and kill people when she went back into the fold but she couldnt and regretted everything she did. And she lost one of the people/demons that was basically like family to her. If you are into being lonley and watching everyone around you die and go around killing people then ya Vegence is for you and its a plus but if not then its not so great.

 

[Icarium]

Didnt Faith have a life sentence or whatever? She only stayed in jail for 3 years because she had to break out to save the world. She knows what she did in her past and she isnt trying to put herself above it now but she is doing more good running from the law then being in a jail cell. Espeically during S4/5.

Jail sentence isn't only about keeping criminals where they can't harm anyone, it's also a way of punishing them. So Faith being more useful outside of prison than inside doesn't necessarily mean she should be outside. Buffy expresses that point quite well in Consequences and Dead Things. After Chosen there are thousands of Slayers so not much need for Faith to be above the wall, yet in the comics she is very much not in jail.

And why would Angels stay in hell change him anyway?

Maybe it's just me but a hundred years of torture should have given Angel a severe psychological trauma. As it was it might as well have been a hundred years of paradise or a hundred years of sleep as far as the long term impact went... 🙂

If you are into being lonley and watching everyone around you die and go around killing people then ya Vegence is for you and its a plus but if not then its not so great.

Anya obviously enjoyed being a vengeance demon, so I don't really see your point.

I don't know if he trusts the Powers with his life, but he sure trusts them with other people's lives.

Well said.