Great Theory - according to Jeanty Aluwyn will play a big role with Willow in the finale - and the theme of "mad realm" and Aluwyn has been established int he Willow one shot which Joss wrote.
I like Willow and Spike together -
Episode Discussion Discussion of 8.39 "Last Gleaming Part 4" - Released 11/01/10 (Dark Horse)
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Great Theory - according to Jeanty Aluwyn will play a big role with Willow in the finale - and the theme of "mad realm" and Aluwyn has been established int he Willow one shot which Joss wrote.
I like Willow and Spike together -
VisionGirl
Newly Human
Allie says that the theme of this season is "betrayal" and in particular "self-betrayal", as in Buffy. Here's his interview with Buffyfest: http://buffyfest.blogspot.com/2010/12/exclusive-big-scott-allie-interview.html
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
Well, there was that one scene waaay back in NFFY where we saw Robin Wood leading a group of Slayers... whether he calls himself a Watcher or not, I don't know. He was wearing the same kind of jacket as Xander and Andrew.
In Buffy's army they seem to prefer having senior Slayers filling the role of "Watcher"... Vi, Kennedy, Satsu, Rona, etc.
A few Watchers seem to have survived being blown up or hunted down by Caleb and the Bringers in season 7... there was Robson, who called Buffy to warn her that Giles might be the First, and there was Duncan Filworthe from the "Safe" one-shot in season 8 (although he could hardly be called a Watcher anymore).
We know the Watchers' Council continues in some form, eventually degenerating into a fanatical apocalyptic cult by Fray's time.
Most of Buffy's army has been wiped out, and no new Slayers are going to be called, so I assume some effort will be made to help those Slayers (more than 1,000) who weren't part of Buffy's group, and most of whom are probably still alive. There will still be some demons and vampires left (those native to this world), so there will still be need for Slayers, and for Watchers.
Andrew, Xander, Dawn, and Robin would probably make a good core, along with the surviving senior Slayers like Vi, Rona, Satsu, Leah, Kennedy.
Spikefan31
Effulgent
This raises questions I hadn't even considered. Can vampires be made anymore? What about prophecies? Are they null and void now? Is Angel's curse still active?
VisionGirl
Very good questions!
white avenger
white avenger
I really don't think that Angel could possibly do that. If he truly wants to atone for his part in the whole Twilight thing, and he most definitely DID have a part in it, Twilight wasn't pulling his strings all of the time, it's going to have to involve some sort of positive service, not self imposed brow beating and brooding. I mentioned the Labors of Hercules before, and I think that something along those lines would be very appropriate in this case. Angel spent a hundred years in hell after attempting Acathla, and as far as we know, all that he did there was survive. Atoning for attempting to destroy the entire universe should AT THE VERY LEAST require him to do that much and more.
It's not like I'm saying that we write him out of the story line for most of Season 9. We all know that time passes differently in other dimensions. He could be tried and sentenanced in Season 9, Issue #1, spend four or five centuries in some hell, performing monumental tasks for the good of whoever inhabits the place, then be back in the Buffyverse, all safe, happy, and atoned, no later than Issue#4.
Just think. Angel actually has the opportunity here to do what no other Buffyverse regular ever has: to PAY THE PRICE FOR WHAT HE DID, either willingly or as Twilight's dupe. It could mark the dawning of a whole new day in the Buffyverse. We could call it the "If You Do The Crime, You're Gonna Do The Time" law, and apply it indiscriminately from now on.
VisionGirl
[No message]
"You have no idea what it's like to have done things I've done...and to care."
The fact that Angel has to live with the consequences of his actions is going to go a long way in the line of punishment. It won't be it all, I suspect some Scoobies will want his blood, but it will be the one that causes him the most distress, pain and anguish.
That's probably not to your liking but, to me, I can't imagine anything worse.
Perhaps we are both wrong. Georges has said that Angel will spend next season trying desperately to undo what he has done.
VisionGirl
Newly Human
Isn't it terrible that I just read #39 today, & already I'm jonesing for #40? Mainly because I want to see how they're going to deal with all this. And we have to wait even longer for that issue, right? Mid-January?
I thought I read on another (unnamed) forum that Faith's big act had to do with forgiving Angel. Anybody else read that?
And am I the only one that imagined someone saying that there would be future Faith/Giles interaction?
I thought I read on another (unnamed) forum that Faith's big act had to do with forgiving Angel. Anybody else read that?
And am I the only one that imagined someone saying that there would be future Faith/Giles interaction?
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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from that there link that VG had above:
Buffyfest: Season 8 seems to be the adult version of Season 2. Was that the intention?
SA: No, not the intention, but I think I know what you mean. I love Season 2, and what you're saying wasn't the intention, never anything we specifically decided upon, but there's clear similarities. I think what was great about Season 2 appealed to us in the setup of Season 8, and we ran with those things. But the differences are interesting too. In Season 2, it was fairly easy to say that Angel was not Angelus, but there's more ambiguity here, in terms of how responsible Angel is for Twilight's actions. I like moral ambiguity. I find that more adult.
Buffyfest: Continuing with that thought, was the decision to have Angel snap Giles neck a shout-out to the murder of Jenny Calendar?
SA: Well, yes, that's one of the real concrete similarities. When we set that scene up, Joss said we should specifically reference Jenny's death, visually, distinctly.
Buffyfest: What would you tell fans who are now fully entrenched in the "I hate Angel" club?
SA: I'd tell 'em they've never had more in common with the characters. I could see Willow doing a hell of a lot more than turning him into a frog, if she didn't have her own problems right now. This low point that we've taken Angel to is gonna be good fodder for Season 9. People felt we let him off the hook too easily after Buffy #34, but he's not off the hook. This is interesting, to me, as someone involved in shaping his story. He's a hero, sometimes a romantic lead, who has a long, long trail of bodies behind him. Killing Giles might not be the worst thing he's ever done, but for the readers and for the characters, it's the act we're gonna be most upset about. Angel's crimes have never been brought home as sharply and as viscerally for the fans as they've been brought home this week.
Buffyfest: Where does his story go next?
SA: Season 9. There’s one more issue that will show you were people are at in the wake of all the horror, but I can’t tell you where it goes next, not just yet. We’ll spill some more info when #40 comes out. But for Angel, it is going to be about redemption—that’s sort of what his story has always been, and maybe now he needs it more than ever.
Buffyfest: Season 8 seems to be the adult version of Season 2. Was that the intention?
SA: No, not the intention, but I think I know what you mean. I love Season 2, and what you're saying wasn't the intention, never anything we specifically decided upon, but there's clear similarities. I think what was great about Season 2 appealed to us in the setup of Season 8, and we ran with those things. But the differences are interesting too. In Season 2, it was fairly easy to say that Angel was not Angelus, but there's more ambiguity here, in terms of how responsible Angel is for Twilight's actions. I like moral ambiguity. I find that more adult.
Buffyfest: Continuing with that thought, was the decision to have Angel snap Giles neck a shout-out to the murder of Jenny Calendar?
SA: Well, yes, that's one of the real concrete similarities. When we set that scene up, Joss said we should specifically reference Jenny's death, visually, distinctly.
Buffyfest: What would you tell fans who are now fully entrenched in the "I hate Angel" club?
SA: I'd tell 'em they've never had more in common with the characters. I could see Willow doing a hell of a lot more than turning him into a frog, if she didn't have her own problems right now. This low point that we've taken Angel to is gonna be good fodder for Season 9. People felt we let him off the hook too easily after Buffy #34, but he's not off the hook. This is interesting, to me, as someone involved in shaping his story. He's a hero, sometimes a romantic lead, who has a long, long trail of bodies behind him. Killing Giles might not be the worst thing he's ever done, but for the readers and for the characters, it's the act we're gonna be most upset about. Angel's crimes have never been brought home as sharply and as viscerally for the fans as they've been brought home this week.
Buffyfest: Where does his story go next?
SA: Season 9. There’s one more issue that will show you were people are at in the wake of all the horror, but I can’t tell you where it goes next, not just yet. We’ll spill some more info when #40 comes out. But for Angel, it is going to be about redemption—that’s sort of what his story has always been, and maybe now he needs it more than ever.
Primal Slayer
Did I Fall Asleep?
I cant believe they killed off Giles! And of course it had to be by Angel. It is pretty hard to even like him as much as I used to due to everything that has happened this season. Kills my Bangel heart.
zobothehobo
Scooby
I don't mind the death of Giles. Mainly because I don't think it wi be easy for Buffy to look past it and it should open her eyes about Angel. Also, I don't like Giles.
I am however mourning the seed. Poor Willow
I am however mourning the seed. Poor Willow
VisionGirl
Newly Human
I don't know if I'm mourning the seed, but this is a huge deal for Willow. Buffy & everybody will grieve Giles & soldier on because they have to (although I'm wondering if Buffy's going to end up checking out for awhile, a la Anne or Normal Again). Not quite sure what's going to happen with Willow though. This gets to the essence of who she is.
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
No, vampires can't sire anyone anymore.
I would say those prophecies that were already made are still active... though there won't be any new ones (thankfully).
I don't know about Angel's curse.
And it seems the Shanshu is now off the table. It would require magic to turn Angel human, and there isn't any anymore. Kind of ironic that such a big deal as the Shanshu Prophecy turns out to be irrelevant. I would think this is the Apocalypse that was predicted for it, too.
Or maybe.... since he has a soul, the end of magic will affect him by turning him human, thus fulfilling the prophecy. If so it should also affect Spike the same way... that is, if he happens to be in this world at the time.
zobothehobo
Scooby
That's what I was thinking too, in regards Shanshu. I doubt neither he nor Spike will have turned human with the loss of magic. I would also assume that the curse is mute simply because it would require magic to remove his soul.
It will be interesting to see what else will come of this change. I'm thinking it ensures that we will not see any resurrections next season either.
As much as I don't like how we have gotten here, S9 does have the scope to be absolutely enthralling. It is literally a whole new world.
VisionGirl
Newly Human
I wouldn't think so, since it was said that vampires will remain. However, what about Angel's and Spike's souls? Angel particularly was ensouled (thrice) by a spell, by magic.
Someone just a few posts previous mentioned demons remaining, but I don't think so. Aluwyn specifically said vampires and slayers (although I'm still unsure as to the post-Chosen Slayers because of the Scythe spell).
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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I think one could have a field to speculating on how much the lose of magic and demons would affect things as we know it. In right, Buffy should be powerless, so there must be magic and demony stuff somewhere.
white avenger
white avenger
"And Angel has no idea what it is to have lost friends, family, and comrades in arms, to see innocents endangered, and to see the one who did it get off with no more that the admission of guilt and the promise that he will spend some extra brood time on it every night."
What Angel did affected too many people in far too negative way for a mere simple statement of regret, no matter how much sincerity and mental anguish goes along with that regret, to be a sufficient penalty. He needs to do something positive and tangible to prove himself if he ever wants to be accepted and trusted by the others ever again.
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
I think demons native to this dimension will stay. That one Spike is chasing, for instance. And ones like Clem.
But, here's a depressing thought... poor Lorne is now back in Pylea, forever. 🙁
Kean
That's actually a horrible thought about Lorne.
VisionGirl
Newly Human
Oh, Lorne! 🙁
But I don't know that I agree with you- I don't think it has been stated that way, and really, things don't change all that much then. Just no witches with magic, no spells, no demons from other dimensions.
OMG...what about Dawn?!
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