citiegal17
Potential
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2010
- Messages
- 189
Episode Discussion Discussion of 8.39 "Last Gleaming Part 4" - Released 11/01/10 (Dark Horse)
- Thread starter Tranquillity
- Start date
- Status
I thought the demons that took over a human were out in the ether waiting to take over a human body upon death - for this new premise to work, wouldn't that mean that the demon that turned a human would have to be creating that demon themselves?
Angel6
You still my girl?
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2010
- Messages
- 431
What a load of rubbish......So Angels gonna be hated again? Great..cheers writers.....I have wasted years of my life watching buffy and angel, reading the books, reading the comics, and the main reason I enjoyed it was watching Angels quest for redemption....and then this happens and they make him act completely out of character and basically ruin the bloody character forever. So pissed off....
---------- Post added at 01:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 PM ----------
Also why are people forgetting that Angel believed (Whistler, who he trusted told him) that the only way to save Buffy was to become Twilight, and this is what gave Twilight the opening to posess him. Not as dishonereable as everyone is making out. He would do pretty much anything to save Buffy
---------- Post added at 01:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 PM ----------
Also why are people forgetting that Angel believed (Whistler, who he trusted told him) that the only way to save Buffy was to become Twilight, and this is what gave Twilight the opening to posess him. Not as dishonereable as everyone is making out. He would do pretty much anything to save Buffy
EuroBirdV8
Townie
in OMWF giles sang about buffy....mentioned so long he's in sunnydale, buffy never made here own steps. i think like a real father he would made buffy stronger by let her go her own way.
now. gile's death...i think buffy wil be stronger then ever.
she has lost almost everyone who stand near her. her mother, giles, almost dawn....her father who we never saw again anymore....
she's totaly alone now when even dawn is ''away''......
but whats the link between the willow from that age, and the bad-willow from the future?
came that because willow found a way to get her magic back.. and payback buffy for destroying all the magic in the world?
now. gile's death...i think buffy wil be stronger then ever.
she has lost almost everyone who stand near her. her mother, giles, almost dawn....her father who we never saw again anymore....
she's totaly alone now when even dawn is ''away''......
but whats the link between the willow from that age, and the bad-willow from the future?
came that because willow found a way to get her magic back.. and payback buffy for destroying all the magic in the world?
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
Yes. Which I'm 99% sure is not the case.
As I understand it, a vampire forces a victim to perform a ritual of mutual blood drinking, and then kills him or her. The victim's soul goes on to heaven or hell or wherever it was destined to go. Then, maybe a day or so later, a demon spirit enters the body and turns it into a vampire, with all the memories of the person whose body it inhabits. When the vamp gets dusted, the demon spirit is either destroyed along with it, or gets sent back to Hell.
In "Fray," Urkonn tells Mel that the Slayer line faded out because there were no more demons or vampires to kill. But season 8 seems to show that he was wrong... it ended because the magic that called Slayers got cut off, along with the magic that allowed vampires to sire others and demons to enter from outside.
Moscow Watcher
Scooby
My review:
The issue is emotional and epic; it kicks ass and pushes all the right buttons - as long as you don't try to analyse the plot. Because it absolutely doesn't make sense. Case in point: Buffy's sudden decision to break the seed. Funnily, everybody else - Willow, Aluwin, Xander, Giles - knew that breaking the seed will banish all magic on Earth. But nobody told Buffy. Well, maybe Spike told her when she was daydreaming about Spuffy sex - but she didn't hear him. She was clueless (most likely due to co-writers' miscommunication). Another problem is overcrowding the story with characters that don't have any reason to be there except Joss wanting to make the finale epic. The main players are Buffy, Angel, Giles and Willow; the rest of the characters just stand on the sidelines not doing anything in particular. And - the "vagina dentata" monster is hilariously tacky.
But - do we watch and read BtVS because of the plots and monsters? Joss fascinates us with his larger-than-life characters making larger-than-life mistakes and paying for them - and here we have everything that makes BtVS stellar - pathos (Giles' death is heartbreaking); humor (Buffy to Angel and Spike: "I liked it better when you were kissing" Spike: "I'm fairly certain I never mentioned...") and epic character journeys.
Buffy. She falls hard, and her defeat roots deeply in her character. She's not an alpha. She's at her best when she works outside the system, when she defied the authorities, when she subverts the rules. But in season 8 she's forced to be the one who creates a system, who writes her rules and who becomes the authority. Anyway, it's not her thing. She's not cut to be a boss. She can't be a general because she cares too much. She loves too much. The softest muscle in her body is her heart. Love is her greatest gift as a person and her biggest flaw as a general. Angel here is the personification of her problems: the love that leads to disaster. As the story ends, the question remains - has she learned her lessons and closed her heart completely? And, if not, who will help her to heal her physical and emotional wounds? In any case, her story in season 9 has great potential.
Angel. I may be in the minority here, but in my opinion Angel's arc perfectly continues and develops his journey on the show. The shadow of Drogyn looms over the whole Twilight arc. Angel always wanted to be a savior yet sacrificed people on the altar of the "greater good", because he's a big-picture guy. Here his big picture mentality is raised on a global level. Angel's greatest flaw is hubris, and turning into a monster is his cosmic revenge: he became everything he hated and despised. Could there be a bigger punishment? Angel's further journey can be epic. As my LJ friend Shapinglight said once, Joss deconstructs the Angel he doesn't understand to build the Angel he understands. My take is that Joss deconstructs the Angel he isnt interested in to build the Angel he wants to explore. Angel the mission's boyfriend is no more. Angel the flawed, tragic, existential hero has risen.
Giles. The last great watcher. Sacrificed himself in the battle of Starbucks. It was a perfect exit. A fitting, heroic death - helping Buffy to stop the apocalypse, with a slayer weapon in his hands. My heart hurts for Giles - but, cerebrally, I understand that his death was long overdue. Every hero journey includes the death of the hero's menthor. Dumbledor, Obi Wan Kenobi, John Winchester die so that Harry, Luc, Dean and Sam could grow up. There are exceptions, of course - Gandalf who died and got resurrected. So who knows, maybe Giles has reunited with Ethan in their dreamspace and will be back in season 8 as Buffy's mystical guide.
Faith. Many fans have suggested that Faith could be Angel's guide on his path to redemption. Agree - such arc would've informed their dynamics with a perfect symmetry. My only gripe about it is that they're too similar - both are dark, intense, brooding. Angel is the most interesting when he's in a scene with Cordy or Spike - somebody with an opposite personality. But Faith has chemistry with practically everybody - so, if Joss plans to add her to AtS as a regular, it could work great.
Willow. Could she save the world by joining her magic with the Seed's power? Xander and Andrew think that they're losing the war - but they can't know for sure. Willow definitely doesn't think they're losing until the Seed is broken. I think it will be the future bone of contention between her and Buffy. Willow could accuse Buffy that she, Willow, had a chance to win the war and to heal the Earth, and to fix everything, and maybe even resurrect Giles - but Buffy's actions made it impossible. And we'll never know if it's true or Willow is delusional. And Buffy still doesn't know that Willow didn't tell her that destroying the Seed was an option. An option that could prevent many deaths including Giles'. Great set-up for the next season. Besides, Kennedy's line "Baby, lie still, I think you broke..." may mean that wheelchair-bound Muffit in "Willow" one-shot was an ominous foreshadowing.
Xander. I feel underwhelmed, frankly, because the previous issue clearly set him up as the destroyer of the Seed. But it's curious that Giles decision to act echoes Xander's own concerns in "Becoming 2" that prompted his much-argued "kick his ass" line. "Xander, it's Angel." Giles says. "At the very least she - she'll hesitate. She wants to stop him, not to kill him." This little exchange casts a different light on "Becoming 2" and it's a really great call-back.
Dawn. I don't know what's her role in this story. In the latest interview Allie said that there will be more deaths, and Dawn is the prime candidate. First, because she has a nice, healthy relationship with Xander. Second, because her death will hit hard both Buffy and Xander, straining their relationship. Third, because, judging by season 8, Joss doesn't know what to do with Dawn and doesn't have more stories for her. And, fourth, because her death at the time of the destruction of the seed will create an eternal mystery: did she die because of her wounds or because of the broken Seed? It would be a perfect exit. (Update: Except Allie said in a TFAW interview that Dawn is okay. )
Seasonal theme. According to Scott Allie, the theme of the season is betrayal. I think it's one of the themes, but not the main one. To me season 8 was about the power corrupting and destroying even the best heroes and champions. On the narrative level Joss used the theme to return to BtVS roots, to make his show as lean and mean as it was in season 1, to get rid of 2000 of annoying extras nobody cared about. Vintage Buffy is an outsider. To tell new stories about her Joss had to return her to her initial status - and he succeeded.
Twilight. There is a lot of interpretations of what Twilight stands for. Maybe because I'm a ficwriter, I interpret Twilight as a metaphor of fanon trying to destroy canon. A paradize, created by smut writers that threatens to melt and devour "official", canonical universe. Fanon is a place where characters can be happy, don't have conflicts, can shape reality according to their wishes. But Happy Reality not a healthy place for a storyteller. To tell a compelling story you need conflict. Of course, I remember that Joss encourages fans to write fanfiction - but he could give us a subliminal warning about the danger of a conflict-less universe that has a tendency to turn characters into puppets.
And, as a ficwriter, I'm incredibly happy about the Seed of Wonder. Just think of it, my fellow ficwriters - it was there, in the underground caves, all the time, unguarded since The Master's death in Prophecy Girl till the end of the TV show. It canonically justifies any outlandish plot twist a writer comes up with - just make a character get lost in the tunnels, see a strange red orb and say something indiscreet in its presence. Thank you, Joss!
And, last but not least...
Spike. Not his season, not his story - yet he has he been brought to the finale. I think it happened for the same reason that Joss included him in his threesome panel in issue #3. To remind us that Spike is still in Buffy's heart. That Buffy is still Spike's hero. To show us that they profoundly care about each other and are perfect morons when it comes to their feelings. That Buffy is very angry that Spike didn't contact her. That he is very angry at her for space-frak. These two crazy kids are king and queen of miscommunication. It will be interesting to see what else Joss plans to do with them. They have a ton of unresolved issues, oceans of UST and it's obvious that their chemistry transcends mediums. And, BTW, his reaction "She did it. Slayer, you did it" implies that it was the plan he was talking about while Buffy was daydreaming.
No, I don't think there will be flowers and puppies for Spuffy in the future. May I remind you about a classic Joss scene in Serenity? It's obvious that Mal loves Inara and Inara loves Mal. Their UST is so thick you can cut it with a knife. But she leaves and then a bad guy makes a trap for Mal and forces Inara to call him and to lure into a trap. Mal's reaction after their conversation:
That's my Spuffy. Always snarking and bantering. Always honest with each other about everything but their hearts' desires. Always destined to dance around each other, afraid to approach too closely. Always teasing us with millions of "what-ifs".
The issue is emotional and epic; it kicks ass and pushes all the right buttons - as long as you don't try to analyse the plot. Because it absolutely doesn't make sense. Case in point: Buffy's sudden decision to break the seed. Funnily, everybody else - Willow, Aluwin, Xander, Giles - knew that breaking the seed will banish all magic on Earth. But nobody told Buffy. Well, maybe Spike told her when she was daydreaming about Spuffy sex - but she didn't hear him. She was clueless (most likely due to co-writers' miscommunication). Another problem is overcrowding the story with characters that don't have any reason to be there except Joss wanting to make the finale epic. The main players are Buffy, Angel, Giles and Willow; the rest of the characters just stand on the sidelines not doing anything in particular. And - the "vagina dentata" monster is hilariously tacky.
But - do we watch and read BtVS because of the plots and monsters? Joss fascinates us with his larger-than-life characters making larger-than-life mistakes and paying for them - and here we have everything that makes BtVS stellar - pathos (Giles' death is heartbreaking); humor (Buffy to Angel and Spike: "I liked it better when you were kissing" Spike: "I'm fairly certain I never mentioned...") and epic character journeys.
Buffy. She falls hard, and her defeat roots deeply in her character. She's not an alpha. She's at her best when she works outside the system, when she defied the authorities, when she subverts the rules. But in season 8 she's forced to be the one who creates a system, who writes her rules and who becomes the authority. Anyway, it's not her thing. She's not cut to be a boss. She can't be a general because she cares too much. She loves too much. The softest muscle in her body is her heart. Love is her greatest gift as a person and her biggest flaw as a general. Angel here is the personification of her problems: the love that leads to disaster. As the story ends, the question remains - has she learned her lessons and closed her heart completely? And, if not, who will help her to heal her physical and emotional wounds? In any case, her story in season 9 has great potential.
Angel. I may be in the minority here, but in my opinion Angel's arc perfectly continues and develops his journey on the show. The shadow of Drogyn looms over the whole Twilight arc. Angel always wanted to be a savior yet sacrificed people on the altar of the "greater good", because he's a big-picture guy. Here his big picture mentality is raised on a global level. Angel's greatest flaw is hubris, and turning into a monster is his cosmic revenge: he became everything he hated and despised. Could there be a bigger punishment? Angel's further journey can be epic. As my LJ friend Shapinglight said once, Joss deconstructs the Angel he doesn't understand to build the Angel he understands. My take is that Joss deconstructs the Angel he isnt interested in to build the Angel he wants to explore. Angel the mission's boyfriend is no more. Angel the flawed, tragic, existential hero has risen.
Giles. The last great watcher. Sacrificed himself in the battle of Starbucks. It was a perfect exit. A fitting, heroic death - helping Buffy to stop the apocalypse, with a slayer weapon in his hands. My heart hurts for Giles - but, cerebrally, I understand that his death was long overdue. Every hero journey includes the death of the hero's menthor. Dumbledor, Obi Wan Kenobi, John Winchester die so that Harry, Luc, Dean and Sam could grow up. There are exceptions, of course - Gandalf who died and got resurrected. So who knows, maybe Giles has reunited with Ethan in their dreamspace and will be back in season 8 as Buffy's mystical guide.
Faith. Many fans have suggested that Faith could be Angel's guide on his path to redemption. Agree - such arc would've informed their dynamics with a perfect symmetry. My only gripe about it is that they're too similar - both are dark, intense, brooding. Angel is the most interesting when he's in a scene with Cordy or Spike - somebody with an opposite personality. But Faith has chemistry with practically everybody - so, if Joss plans to add her to AtS as a regular, it could work great.
Willow. Could she save the world by joining her magic with the Seed's power? Xander and Andrew think that they're losing the war - but they can't know for sure. Willow definitely doesn't think they're losing until the Seed is broken. I think it will be the future bone of contention between her and Buffy. Willow could accuse Buffy that she, Willow, had a chance to win the war and to heal the Earth, and to fix everything, and maybe even resurrect Giles - but Buffy's actions made it impossible. And we'll never know if it's true or Willow is delusional. And Buffy still doesn't know that Willow didn't tell her that destroying the Seed was an option. An option that could prevent many deaths including Giles'. Great set-up for the next season. Besides, Kennedy's line "Baby, lie still, I think you broke..." may mean that wheelchair-bound Muffit in "Willow" one-shot was an ominous foreshadowing.
Xander. I feel underwhelmed, frankly, because the previous issue clearly set him up as the destroyer of the Seed. But it's curious that Giles decision to act echoes Xander's own concerns in "Becoming 2" that prompted his much-argued "kick his ass" line. "Xander, it's Angel." Giles says. "At the very least she - she'll hesitate. She wants to stop him, not to kill him." This little exchange casts a different light on "Becoming 2" and it's a really great call-back.
Dawn. I don't know what's her role in this story. In the latest interview Allie said that there will be more deaths, and Dawn is the prime candidate. First, because she has a nice, healthy relationship with Xander. Second, because her death will hit hard both Buffy and Xander, straining their relationship. Third, because, judging by season 8, Joss doesn't know what to do with Dawn and doesn't have more stories for her. And, fourth, because her death at the time of the destruction of the seed will create an eternal mystery: did she die because of her wounds or because of the broken Seed? It would be a perfect exit. (Update: Except Allie said in a TFAW interview that Dawn is okay. )
Seasonal theme. According to Scott Allie, the theme of the season is betrayal. I think it's one of the themes, but not the main one. To me season 8 was about the power corrupting and destroying even the best heroes and champions. On the narrative level Joss used the theme to return to BtVS roots, to make his show as lean and mean as it was in season 1, to get rid of 2000 of annoying extras nobody cared about. Vintage Buffy is an outsider. To tell new stories about her Joss had to return her to her initial status - and he succeeded.
Twilight. There is a lot of interpretations of what Twilight stands for. Maybe because I'm a ficwriter, I interpret Twilight as a metaphor of fanon trying to destroy canon. A paradize, created by smut writers that threatens to melt and devour "official", canonical universe. Fanon is a place where characters can be happy, don't have conflicts, can shape reality according to their wishes. But Happy Reality not a healthy place for a storyteller. To tell a compelling story you need conflict. Of course, I remember that Joss encourages fans to write fanfiction - but he could give us a subliminal warning about the danger of a conflict-less universe that has a tendency to turn characters into puppets.
And, as a ficwriter, I'm incredibly happy about the Seed of Wonder. Just think of it, my fellow ficwriters - it was there, in the underground caves, all the time, unguarded since The Master's death in Prophecy Girl till the end of the TV show. It canonically justifies any outlandish plot twist a writer comes up with - just make a character get lost in the tunnels, see a strange red orb and say something indiscreet in its presence. Thank you, Joss!
And, last but not least...
Spike. Not his season, not his story - yet he has he been brought to the finale. I think it happened for the same reason that Joss included him in his threesome panel in issue #3. To remind us that Spike is still in Buffy's heart. That Buffy is still Spike's hero. To show us that they profoundly care about each other and are perfect morons when it comes to their feelings. That Buffy is very angry that Spike didn't contact her. That he is very angry at her for space-frak. These two crazy kids are king and queen of miscommunication. It will be interesting to see what else Joss plans to do with them. They have a ton of unresolved issues, oceans of UST and it's obvious that their chemistry transcends mediums. And, BTW, his reaction "She did it. Slayer, you did it" implies that it was the plan he was talking about while Buffy was daydreaming.
No, I don't think there will be flowers and puppies for Spuffy in the future. May I remind you about a classic Joss scene in Serenity? It's obvious that Mal loves Inara and Inara loves Mal. Their UST is so thick you can cut it with a knife. But she leaves and then a bad guy makes a trap for Mal and forces Inara to call him and to lure into a trap. Mal's reaction after their conversation:
That's my Spuffy. Always snarking and bantering. Always honest with each other about everything but their hearts' desires. Always destined to dance around each other, afraid to approach too closely. Always teasing us with millions of "what-ifs".
white avenger
How could Buffy possibly be mad at Spike for not trying to contact her when she did exactly the same thing, plus she actually knew where he was. He thought that she was in Rome. He couldn't have contacted her if he HAD tried.
C
citiegal17
Nice Review!
I'm sorry.
I'm really, really sorry.
But I cannot hide my disappointment with Season 8.
If you write the plot of Season 8 down loosely on a piece of paper and read it back to yourself, its the most retarded nonsense ever.
I'm pretty good at denial. And after nearly 4 years, Season 8 is no more canon to me than that Kristy Swanson oddity.
Season 8 didn't happen. And neither did the Star Wars prequels or Indiana Jones IV.
I'm really, really sorry.
But I cannot hide my disappointment with Season 8.
If you write the plot of Season 8 down loosely on a piece of paper and read it back to yourself, its the most retarded nonsense ever.
I'm pretty good at denial. And after nearly 4 years, Season 8 is no more canon to me than that Kristy Swanson oddity.
Season 8 didn't happen. And neither did the Star Wars prequels or Indiana Jones IV.
Skanky Vamp
Indiana Jones IV was not terrible.. at least it kinda felt like Indy. I think if the ending were different the movie would have not been viewed as poorly as it is.
B
Buffy4ever2k10
The picture is hilarious but true. Thx :)
VisionGirl
Newly Human
Moscow Watcher says
Indeed LOL
And I agree. All that power, all that responsibility: Buffy struggles with it all season long. It's a continuation of season 7 really. Robbing the bank shows how low she has gone in her desperation to keep it all together.
Indeed LOL
EuroBirdV8
Townie
well, buffy would stop after she heard what giles and angel were talking about.
and in the seasons later, all she would was an normal life.
i think buffy wil giving up in the last comix to come.
and thinking about, she lost almost everyone who she care about.
even in real life its making from a strong human a broken one🙁
and in the seasons later, all she would was an normal life.
i think buffy wil giving up in the last comix to come.
and thinking about, she lost almost everyone who she care about.
even in real life its making from a strong human a broken one🙁
xfivebyfive
Because its Fate.
I just read it and theyre dead to me lol. I can't consider them canon. I tried and tried but after the horror that has been season 8 I just can't. I cannot consider something so terrible that destroys the characters I love and has terrible writing canon.
Plus Giles!! *cries* And to have Angel kill him is just unbelievable.
I HATE the comics.
Only thing I didn't understand was Willow her whole bit confused me.
Plus Giles!! *cries* And to have Angel kill him is just unbelievable.
I HATE the comics.
Only thing I didn't understand was Willow her whole bit confused me.
S
Spikefan31
[No message]
LyteHouse
I feel your pain
zobothehobo
Scooby
Question for the tons of people who think this has ruined Angel's character.
I don't see it. To me, Angel's always been this guy. So he fell for Twilight's games? Go watch Ats and show me an example of a time he didn't fall for WR&H's games. This is not OOC for him. Quite the contrary. Just because you think what happened was terrible and awful doesn't mean they've taken a character you loved and made him into something else that you dislike. They just played on his tragic flaw... that's all. They did the same thing for ALL of Ats. This time though, it's just bigger scale... but Angel's still the same character you've loved all along.
I don't see it. To me, Angel's always been this guy. So he fell for Twilight's games? Go watch Ats and show me an example of a time he didn't fall for WR&H's games. This is not OOC for him. Quite the contrary. Just because you think what happened was terrible and awful doesn't mean they've taken a character you loved and made him into something else that you dislike. They just played on his tragic flaw... that's all. They did the same thing for ALL of Ats. This time though, it's just bigger scale... but Angel's still the same character you've loved all along.
C
citiegal17
So very true!
Pryce
Townie
to me,its a mixture of all of the seasons. It's got the kinda sillyness and ability to go for the high concept fantasy fun episodes of season 3,1 and 5. The sort of tragic feeling of 2. And the muddled mess of 7.
It kinda feels like a greatest hits collection with all the characters theyre reviving and putting back into it. Everybody from ethan rayne,warren mears and riley to angel and spike and oz.
as for the death of giles. I saw it coming kinda,i figured logically he was the expendable one out of the core scoobies. Willows the mind,Xanders the heart and Buffys the main character..Giles had been slowly phased out over the years and the seasons were still ok despite him being gone. But,Honestly its just sort of disapointing.
Regardless of whether people love giles,Giles is such an important part of buffy. Hes been there from the very first episode,throughout all of the character devolpment,and hes gone through as much as them. A buffy without giles in any way is almost losing this however small piece of innocence that i dont think should be tarnished. It kinda comes across as just an effort to be shocking
Angel6
You still my girl?
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2010
- Messages
- 431
I agree that Angel has been shown before to be overtrusting and would do anything to save Buffy, however I dont really see why he is getting so much hate this time when he was trying to again save Buffy. He got posessed it wasnt him, it may aswell have been another character. I dont see why they had to do such a massive thing to distnace himself from Buffy again though....it seemed like they were getting back together, and now its obvious they only did that to make it have more of an impact when he got posessed and killed Giles and Buffy distnaces herself from him again. I would just like to point out Angel has never been a character that shirked responsiblity for things he has done, even when he has been posessed or Angelus, he has always blamed himself. He went to Hell for a hundred years for what he did as Angelus, and he far from complained about it. And all through series 3 buffy to Series 1 to 5 of Angel he fought so hard to make a difference, and in the final episode led his team in what was meant to be his final stand...I cant accept people saying Angel is responsiblity shirking, he is a hero. And people saying Spike is a better man than him is ridiculous. Spike only ever helped out of boredom or to get Buffy, not because he wanted to do the right thing.
BibliophileAnn
[No message]
goodbyetonight
I'll tear down the sky
Buffy4ever2k10
Potential
The Angel from AtF is so much better and more in character as he ever was in the whole season 8. I like his series much more then this mess called season 8. It´s just all to much overdone. More drama,deaths and action doesn´t always make a good combination. I consider AtF now as cannon and Season 8 never existed.
Of course i´m going to read issue 40(i smell a teary goodbye scene coming for Buffy and Spike 🙁 ) and season 9 too but that´s it. I get to emotional when it comes to Buffy,Spike,Angel and the scoobies and this season...ah frak it. SUCKED!
I´m glad they didn´t ruined Spikes character too. I would be furious about it.
citiegal17
Potential
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2010
- Messages
- 189
Angel is at best a fallen hero at the end of ATS, he was murder at the end of his own series, he had compromised his own morals, betrayed his friends, and he had no problem throughout ATS being an advocate for the greater good, seeking a destiny, and killing innocent people who are heroes like Drogyn for his own agenda's. His own final stand didn't prove anything, except that maybe he wanted to stick to W&H who he had willingly sold out to begin with. Spike once ensouled hasn't gone back to murdering people, he has consistly been good with his soul, he wouldn't fall for Twilight because he is the more evolved vampire of the two, whoever you prefer is fine. Angel character's feels bad about the bad things he done, but that doesn't stop him from the doing the wrong thing in the past, whether ensouled or not, ATS proves this.
S
Spikefan31
[No message]
zobothehobo
Scooby
I knew sooner or later we'd hear the ridiculousness of the die hard Angel fans yapping about how "it wasn't him, he was possessed!" But let me ask you something die-hard Angel fans, what about the rest of the season? How many innocent people died because Angel (ANGEL) fell for Twilight's games? How much did your dear Angel put Buffy and friends through with his whole "masked big evil named Twilight" thing? That wasn't Angelus and it wasn't Twilight. There's no escaping from that. That was ANGEL who did those things. That was ANGEL who was talked into all of the awful things masked Angel as Twilight did by talking animals.
And Spike helped out of boredom or to get Buffy? Please show me evidence of that. From what I can tell, he helped to save the world. The boredom thing (however stupid) I can not understand... but I get your reasoning for... But to get Buffy?! If he wanted to get Buffy do you really think he would have chased after that big demon at the end of this issue? Wouldn't he have gone down to comfort her? I think you're just trying to make Angel/Bangel/Twangel look better than it actually is. Don't delude yourselves... Angel did a lot of horrible things that shouldn't be forgiven. Spike helped because he's a good man. And Bangel is through.
---------- Post added at 08:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:35 PM ----------
Exactly! This is exactly why I don't understand all the people who keep saying that this season pulled Angel so far OOC they don't recognize him anymore. They just continued with the same stuff they had Angel doing in Ats the whole time. The comics didn't ruin Angel's character, they just made sure every viewer knows exactly who he is.
And the Spike thing... I couldn't agree more.
And Spike helped out of boredom or to get Buffy? Please show me evidence of that. From what I can tell, he helped to save the world. The boredom thing (however stupid) I can not understand... but I get your reasoning for... But to get Buffy?! If he wanted to get Buffy do you really think he would have chased after that big demon at the end of this issue? Wouldn't he have gone down to comfort her? I think you're just trying to make Angel/Bangel/Twangel look better than it actually is. Don't delude yourselves... Angel did a lot of horrible things that shouldn't be forgiven. Spike helped because he's a good man. And Bangel is through.
---------- Post added at 08:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:35 PM ----------
Exactly! This is exactly why I don't understand all the people who keep saying that this season pulled Angel so far OOC they don't recognize him anymore. They just continued with the same stuff they had Angel doing in Ats the whole time. The comics didn't ruin Angel's character, they just made sure every viewer knows exactly who he is.
And the Spike thing... I couldn't agree more.
S
Spikefan31
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I am not really an Angel fan but I think season eight grossly exaggerated his flaws. He is just criminally stupid in S8, no other way to describe it. He has been ruthless and selfish before but that moronic? He really thought Buffy was going to buy his explanation "er, a prophecy told me to put on a mask and become a villain"? Really? The plan apparently hinges on keeping Buffy in the dark yet in the end he reveals his identity to her anyway?!? He really thought Buffy was going to just abandon the whole world to literally go to hell and come live with him in some "paradise"? No, scratch Buffy he abandoned his own friends. Whistler tells him that the other possible futures are worse and Angel just accepts that?!?
So, yes, while I share Xander's "One day you are gonna die and I am gonna be there" attitude towards Angel, I still think the way he behaves in season eight makes no sense. Saying that Angel always had it in him kind of reminds me of the claims that Willow tricking Cordelia into using the delete key was foreshadowing for her attempt to destroy the world...
So, yes, while I share Xander's "One day you are gonna die and I am gonna be there" attitude towards Angel, I still think the way he behaves in season eight makes no sense. Saying that Angel always had it in him kind of reminds me of the claims that Willow tricking Cordelia into using the delete key was foreshadowing for her attempt to destroy the world...
After getting his soul Angel spent the better part of a century milling about with no purpose; very rarely he took action that would be classified as heroic. And when he did it was under duress or against his better judgment. Only when he saw Buffy did he decide to fight the good fight. Once he got to L.A. it was the Shanshu and then making a better world for Connor that drove him to do good.
Both vamps have reasons for becoming champions.
Angel is the big picture, "let them fight the good fight, someone's gotta fight the war." guy.
Spike is the blow by blow, live in the moment, savor every second guy.
The path to victory in the apocalypse is laid out by people like Angel; but that final swing of a sword that determines the victor is reserved for men like Spike.
But if neither of them had "found" Buffy; they'd either be evil or sucking down rat tartar.
P.S. I can't really "ignore" season 8; but I'm gonna give my brain a mulligan and focus on the arcs that were strongest.
Both vamps have reasons for becoming champions.
Angel is the big picture, "let them fight the good fight, someone's gotta fight the war." guy.
Spike is the blow by blow, live in the moment, savor every second guy.
The path to victory in the apocalypse is laid out by people like Angel; but that final swing of a sword that determines the victor is reserved for men like Spike.
But if neither of them had "found" Buffy; they'd either be evil or sucking down rat tartar.
P.S. I can't really "ignore" season 8; but I'm gonna give my brain a mulligan and focus on the arcs that were strongest.
VisionGirl
LMAO-"give my brain a mulligan"! OK, I think I'll do that too since there is a lot in S8 that I like.
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