Discussion of Angel 5x15 - "A Hole In The World" (WB-U.S.A.) airing 2/25/04.

totally agee with merc and the rest of yall....man...they should've changed fred into an evil godess a season ago...might've saved the show...cause she is the coolest looking character ever on tv...

the fight scene with the uglies was inspired...one of the best ever in angel...

i don't know...when cordy died..i was shocked...when fred died...didn't feel it...i don't know why...i love fred...but...maybe cause wesley wasn't like balling his eyes out or something...don't know...didn't hit me...

Next week's episode will be the illest episode ever...EVER
 
Oh I totally loved this episode, one of the best in the season. Loved seeing Freds more serious side and Amy did a great job in this.
 
This episode was just ...wow. I don't know when Fred was dying it just looked like hell...you know how you remember the sickest you ever were..then imagine it being 100 times worse...ugh I really felt badly for her.

Maybe they'll address what Lorne saw in the next episode.
 
This was a really good episode. Sad, but still good. I think that the cavemen could win because they'd just be angry and beat the crap outta the astranauts with branches and stuff. Anyway, I liked the clip of Fred as the teaser. We haven't seen that many flashbacks of her, if any. Stephanie (Tru_Davies at BB) and I were watching it and I was trying not to be upset by Fred's coming death until Fred started with the "Tell my parents I wasn't afraid when I died." stuff. I think she was very brave through the whole thing, "I lived in a cave for 5 years where demons killed my kind like cattle! I'm to good to die like this". I can't believe they killed her off just to make her into a demon. Stupid Nox! and Wesley better not do anything stupid...
 
WatcherWes said:
Badass Wes is an extension of "ends justify the means" Wes.
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S4 Wesley is much more complicated than simply a good man following the logic of the ends justify the means. He honestly believed that he was damned to hell. It doesn't matter whether he was, Wesley believed that he was evil and that belief does weird things to somebody. Wesley has a lot of pain inside. He's had a hard life, problems with his father, rejection by other people, and finally the whole Connor mess. Wesley I think also has large amounts of burried rage. Since he thinks that he is already damned and that nothing he does can change that, he gives himself persmission to do anything.

What scared Faith when Wesley stabbed the junkie. Wasn't that he stabbed her but that he did so without feeling or sympathy. He wasn't even angry. Stabbing the girl wasn't a big deal to Wesley, it was just something that he had to do. I don't think that he values human life very much any more. Wesley in S4 was looking for death and didn't care if death found him. He'd lost most of his emotions except for his attachment to Lilah and his obsession over Fred. I don't think shooting the guy was out of character for S4 Wesley. He didn't care enough about other people to not want to shoot the man. Fred one of the very few people he cares about was dying. He wanted someone to suffer and the man made him angry.

The question really isn't was shooting the man out of character for Wesley, but rather was shootig the man out of character for Wesley now. I'd say yes. This season Wesley has basicly reverted to a pre-season 4 incarnation, only he is much happier and more mellow than I've ever seen Wesley. So was shooting the man out of charater this season? You bet it was.
 
nerd4hire said:
And I have to say it...My first reaction to the last shot: Amy Acker as Evil Goddess is sizzling hot.
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I couldn't agree more, N4H. My mouth actually fell open when she stood up at the end...hot damn!!!

As for Wes shooting that guy in the leg...I buy into it. And I don't think it violates his character; he was using that guy as an example for the dozens of other W&H employees who were working on their own pet projects rather than researching Fred's case.

The real surprise moment of violence for me (much more shocking that Fred shooting that guy in the leg) was Lorne decking Eve. I really liked that. Nothing like violence from non-violent characters to underscore just how imporant Fred is to all of them!
 
Hitome said:
"S4 Wesley is much more complicated than simply a good man following the logic of the ends justify the means. He honestly believed that he was damned to hell. "
Gotta disagree with you. S4 Wes didn't think he was damned to hell. He knew he was on his way to purgatory, and that hell could be the next stop on his journey. But remember what he said to Lilah, "i've got to choose a side" and how he couldn't be "gray anymore". He knew he was straddling both good and evil, and that he had to make a choice. He didn't honestly believe he was damned to hell.
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Hitome said:
Well, I just finished watching the episode. I suspect most people won't agree, but I was a little disappointed. I don't know. I don't like that they killed Fred, although it does set up an interesting plot development. My main problem is that it didn't have much emotional impact for me.I'm really not sure why. Lilah's death hurt a lot more, and while I loved Lilah, I also really like Fred. She saved the world last season and is a central character and a great person. I know Angel likes hurting its characters, but was killing Fred really worth Wesley, Gunn, Angel, Lorne, and Spike's anguish conflict and development?

I also don't understand why Spike and Angel didn't just call Wesley and tell him to fly with Fred to England. Then, she could have died on the plane if they really wanted to kill her. I just feel like Spike and Angel really weren't thinking. If the "plague" would kill anyone between Fred and the well, why not bring Fred to the well?
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I was a little disappointed too... It just, everything just went by so fast... And the Wesley/Fred moments were severely lacking in emotions. Considering this is a Joss effort, I don't understand how this can happen...

As for bringing Fred over to England, Fred would've died before she reached... And Illyria would've taken over, possibly destroying the plan, and dusting Spike and Angel, and the WB will have a field day, and we can't have that....
 
What an AMAZING episode-every single actor was SO good here-what depth! How heart-wrenching!

I admit, I jumped when Fred spit up the blood too. I was just sitting there staring at the screen and my hubby looks at me and goes-"This isn't going to be a good episode for you, is it?" As I am very sensitive and he knew I would cry. And I did....a whole lot.

I KNEW there was going to be some Spangel reaction to the holding hands bit, but that was cool on a hole 'nother level-that wire trick was hot! "And look, they brought us weapons." What a great line 🙂

I laughed hysterically with the whole caveman vs. astronauts scene! I actually think that the caveman represented magic and the astronaut represented science. It goes back to Joss' whole initiative theme-science can't beat magic...put those two together and Fred didn't have a chance.

I didn't like the whole Wes shooting the guy in the leg thing either-it was tacky-and it didn't fit his current "way-of-being"
Loved tough Lorne! What was that song Eve was singing? I heard it and afterwords, I was like, wasn't that the song Lindsey sang in Caritas in Season 2? Just a really bad version of it? But by the time I got to thinking it, I forgot how what she sang sounded...does anybody know?

LOL---me and my hubby both gave each other weird looks at the end of the episode. He wouldn't say anything, cuz I was still crying until, through my tears, I tell him, "Two ways Fred looks hot-1) anytime she's holding a gun, and 2) Evil with blue hair 🙂"

Duh, people! This happened to Fred BECAUSE everybody loves her so much. It couldn't have been Lorne or Eve, because it wouldn't have hit them or us so hard. Joss likes to torture his characters-and his fans. and I have to admit I love EVERY minute of it!

It may very well be the thing I miss most about this show when it's gone....
 
WatcherWes said:
Gotta disagree with you. S4 Wes didn't think he was damned to hell. But remember what he said to Lilah, "i've got to choose a side" and how he couldn't be "gray anymore". He knew he was straddling both good and evil, and that he had to make a choice. He didn't honestly believe he was damned to hell.
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He said that at the end of the season, by then I think Wes was changing a little. He also agreed with Lilah earlier, that those who betray their friends are damned to the darkest circle of Hell. Also, just because you think you are damned doesn't mean you can't choose to fight for good. Take Angel for example. I think that's what Wesley meant. Even if he's damned he can still choose a side and fight for good. Plus if he's not Catholic he probably doesn't believe in Purgatory.

Liam said:
As for bringing Fred over to England, Fred would've died before she reached... And Illyria would've taken over, possibly destroying the plan, and dusting Spike and Angel, and the WB will have a field day, and we can't have that....
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She died anyway. It takes four hours to get to the well in a W&H jet. Even if Fred died on board Illyria would be on a Plane. If Illyria can't fly it then the plane would crash and Wesley would die too I guess, but honestly he could just shove Fred's corpse out of the airplane. With any luck the fall would at least damage the demon. Also, why didn't Wesley just cut Fred's head off when she died? I don't really picture Illyria headless somehow.

Jacklyn said:
What was that song Eve was singing? I heard it and afterwords, I was like, wasn't that the song Lindsey sang in Caritas in Season 2? Just a really bad version of it? But by the time I got to thinking it, I forgot how what she sang sounded...does anybody know?
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I don't know what song she was singing, but it was pretty horrible. Which is funny by the way since the actor who plays Eve got her start in musical theature and must be a really good singer when she's not playing Eve.
 
S4 Wes' exact mindset is up to interpretation, but I'd say we're each pretty close. On the topic of Wes not cutting her head off: A) He was very upset. B) Her skin was getting super hard.
 
Does this really mean that Fred is really gone for sure though? I know that she is still the help bitch or whatever next week, but is our beloved Fred really really dead? God I hope she comes back in some way shape or form.
 
This was a very good episode. I had so many mixed emotions while watching this one. Joss did a good job of giving us some juicy bits to chew on and discuss while we wait for the next ep to come. IMO every actor played their role well, and it made for a good show.

I really feel sorry for Gunn when Knox made him feel even worse than when he got his butt handed to him by his look-alike. Although that's nothing compared to how Wes was feeling when Fred died. And I know I wasn't the only one shocked by Lorne's display of the dark side....I know I was quite impressed while shaking in my wee-bitty cowboy boots-lol at how he easily pimp smacked and punked Eve all at once. And I really liked every single interaction/scene with Angel and Spike. Every time those two were together, it was like being in a candy store for the first time....simply magic. Plus I was happy (althought it was so short) that Angel mentioned something about Cordy dying, yeah I wish it was something more moving, but I guess I can't complain.

All in all, it was a good ep and I feel good knowing that if we Joss fans aren't at least able to get our magics, baby sacrifices, and voodoo dolls-lol to get Angel to stay for another season, at least the show is going out with style. I honestly can't wait til the next show to see how things pan out.


And yeah ::devil:: Big Bad ::devil:: will admit it.......I was going to cry (but I stopped myself luckily... ::crying:: )when Fred died and her body went thru the motions of making room for the demon............You guys bloody tell anyone bout this, and you'll have railroad spikes thru your skulls before sun-rise ::rolf:: 😀 lol 😀 ::rolf::
 
Alright, I think this episode was one of the best out of this season. Here were a few highlights for me:

-The last few minutes proved that Alexis and Amy are two of the best actors on television. For me it was one of the most emotional deaths on Angel, you really don't want to see her go. I agree with Jacklyn they killed her off because everyone loved her, the episode wouldn't have been good if it were based on the death of Eve, because we all want Eve to die or Lorne, sorry, but his death wouldn't have that much of an impact at least on me.

-It's about time they did something useful with Lorne, he actually got to be badass instead of the random guy people talk to keep a story moving. Nah, really cool to see him put Eve in her place.

-Awesome to see how all the men were dead serious about saving Fred's life, she meant something to all of them (cept for Knox) even Spike being the new guy to the group got very intense about saving her. Good to see that everyone had a part in this episode in trying to save her.

- The developements with Gunn is getting even more interesting now. It will be interesting to see if he turns straight up evil in the coming episodes.

-The Spike/ Angel dynamic was really good in this episode, oppose to the last couple of episodes. I'm surprised how nobody have mentioned the teaser where Angel comes out with a stuck all the way into his chest and coming out his back with an alien insect attached as him and Spike argue. And the astronaut and caveman running joke was great. But it was good to see the two of them pull it together to save Fred.

Again, great episode, I like set up episodes. It looks like this will be our final arc of the series, looks like it's going to be realy good. Hope Fred comes back to life though.
 
Hate me for saying this if you want, but I think there's something everyone is missing.

Season 5 is about corruption. Joss and others in the ME staff have said so.

When Wesley loses it and shoots an innocent in the leg, or Lorne breaks out of character and becomes aggresively violent, or Gunn gets beaten by an evil version of himself, or Angel says "To Hell with the rest of the world", it isn't because they're acting contrary to their characters, or the rules of the series, it's because the forces that have been working to corrupt Angel and his crew in S-5 are starting to win.

Also remember this; Joss loves Irony. It's like Jacklyn said;


This happened to Fred BECAUSE everybody loves her so much.
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Given Joss's love of irony, it should be almost expected that the final spike on the Fang Gang's railway line to Hell in S-5 is nailed in by their Common love for "the one character they all agree on".

BTW did you notice another question has been added the list:

Who sent the amulet?
Who sent the cyborgs?
Who sent the box?

The new one is, who sent the sarcophagous?

Also for the people saying this episode lacked power. I can't help noticing this episode's thread has reached 3 pages faster than previous episode threads. I mean don't you get it? This was a setup episode. It's main purpose wasn't to knock your socks off. It was supposed to raise the emotional power to the point you want to see the next episode where the final emotional punch will hopefully be delivered. How could Joss have done that better?
 
Don't we already know who sent the amulet and the box? It was Lindsey. We're not sure about the cyborgs though....And didn't Knox HAVE the sarcophogus sent to Fred?

BTW-I distinctly remember starting a thread that said Knox was evil-behold my correctness 😀

LOL! Observe the link: Told you so!!!!
 
ITA, N4H. Everything so far this season has revolved around the concept of corruption, however small. What the characters are doing now...I don't see it as being out of character. It's evolution of character. I don't know if that's how thier actions are supposed to be taken, but I've settled on that conclusion until a better one comes along.
 
Jacklyn said:
Don't we already know who sent the amulet and the box? It was Lindsey. We're not sure about the cyborgs though....And didn't Knox HAVE the sarcophogus sent to Fred?

BTW-I distinctly remember starting a thread that said Knox was evil-behold my correctness 😀

LOL! Observe the link: Told you so!!!!
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You'll have to point out where it says Lindsey sent the amulet.

It's hinted he sent the box in his conversation with Eve after Spike corporealizes, and he says he sent it in his conversation with Spike as Doyle. Is that where he says he sent the amulet too? Can you trust anything he said as Doyle? If he did send these items, why? That still needs to be explained. Was something pulling his strings?

I definitely got the feeling something was pulling the strings of Knox. Was there a hidden significance to last week's episode? Are they all puppets?
 
I had a feeling something was up with that partner fred had all along, I just didn't know what it was... what a freak, anyways, the beginning was really funny, I liked when she was holding the giant fire weapon, I don't think the scientist guy is dead... cause I saw him in the clip for next week... I wonder if he is even human.... maybe he is just a total wacko... the ending was so sad, the demon llyria looks really cool though...
 
::crying:: ::crying:: ::crying:: Why Did they have to do that to Fred. She was my 2 Favorit Charactor. I'm hoping they bring her back. I love fred. It's Bad enough that they killed cordy but not fred 2. I liked the eppi but Why.
 
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