Discussion of Angel 5x15 - "A Hole In The World" (WB-U.S.A.) airing 2/25/04.

[Hitome]

It was sad, but I am interested in what happens after/if/when they defeat Illyria. What happens to Fred's body? Does it turn back to her, or stay in demon form? hmmm.

Well, considering that Illyria ate Fred's insides out and she died I would assume that Fred will stay dead. I certainly couldn't live without my organs.

Interesting question-- Could the Angel team have saved Fred even if they got Illyria out of her before she died? I don't know about W&H level of technology, but anyone today who had as much damage done to her body as Fred in this episode certainly could not survive.

 

[BillieHunter]

They would have probably been able to save her if they had gotten Illyria out very early, but Illyris did cause alot of damage, she was destroying Fred from the inside, even if Illryia was somehow taken out of Fred, I think there was too much internal damage to save her.

Spiked Buffy: I think they'll just be left with Fred's dead body....Fred did die, and as much as I love her character I don't see her coming back from this one, but I really hope she isn't gone for good.... Poor Fred... ::crying:: ::crying::

 

[Javen]

"Her organs are cooking. In a days time, they'll liquify."
I'm pretty sure she's dead.

 

[WyrdDemonHunter]

"Her organs are cooking. In a days time, they'll liquify."
I'm pretty sure she's dead.

Yeah, I agree. But, like I was saying previously, this is not a guarantee that she'll stay dead.

We had Angel come back from hell, we've had The First immitate various dead people, we've had the memories and ghosts of dead people come back, we've had W&H pull someone out of hell... etc.

Even with no organs, she could still come back. It's entirely up to the writers.

 

[The First Evil]

Well if her organs were to cook, they'd harden not liquify as my mother the nurse was quick to point out 😀 but even so, the body wouldn't be inhabitable... Fred is gone by all accounts 🙁

 

[Falcon]

I really loved this episode. The acting was great and the only thing I could think of as the ep ended was "I can't believe they are cancelling this show!".
I also immediately wondered why they didn't bring Fred to the well and perform the spell there. Maybe not enough time?

And consider all the mystical elements and such that happen in the Jossverse, I think there is always a possibility of a character "returning from the dead". Fred may be dead but who really knows. With Joss, anything can happen!

 

[XAngelusX]

I loved Wes knee-caping that employee and then say 'Anyone whoisn't working Ms Burkles case can you send to my office' that was just class.
I loved the Angel and Spike scene on the bridge where Spike says 'There's a hole in the world. You would have thought someone would have noticed.' This eppie had such great dialogue. The last 5 episodes have been great.

 

[Blackarachnia]

That was extremely sad. Great episode, but I even cried. It takes a lot to move me, and that certainly did it for me. The big moment for me was when her head fell on Wesley's arm...::crying::. Also, I didn't expect her to change into Illyria so soon. When Fred sang by the stairs, Lorne turned around, and she coughed up blood, I jumped...seriously. I hope Knox lives through his encounter with Gunn, so that Wes can make him suffer. I bet Gunn's gonna suffer a bit too. Next week's looks so good...

I have been haunted by this episode ever since I watched it on Saturday. I cried and cried and cannot stop seeing images of Fred and Wes together. It was torturous and beautiful and heart-breaking and yet, I need to see it again. Tonight. Before they air the next ep. I cannot believe that Fred is gone. This ep affected me so much more than The Body did because I didn't like Joyce all that much but I loved Fred. I feel like a close friend or family member has died.

Please bring her back, Joss. Before it all ends. If it all ends.
::crying2: ::crying2: ::crying2:

If you are at all familiar with sword work or martial arts five seconds is more than enough time to decapitate someone especially someone who is already dead.

Also, I didn't say that he should have suddenly decided to decapitate Fred's corpse at that moment of her death. Wesley should have been prepared for the possible eventuality of her death and prepared to stop the demon that murdered Fred. He owed it to her.

If he had a katana on him it would have been easy to chop off her head. Not easy emotionally, but easy physically anyway.

Second thought an ax might be better since she was lying down. Anyway any sharp significatly heavy wepon would work.

I agree that it would have been the right thing to do but then she might have left Fred's body and still infected millions. And could you really do that - cut off the head of the person you are in love with and cannot live without. I know I couldn't. I hate and love Joss for doing this. It is what makes us go back - characters can really die. what "mainstream" cop or hospital drama can say the same.

 

[Hitome]

I agree that it would have been the right thing to do but then she might have left Fred's body and still infected millions. And could you really do that - cut off the head of the person you are in love with and cannot live without.

I think I must be different than most people. In Wesley's position I would have been frantic, yet I also know that I would think about the worst case scenario. I'm a realist I hardly ever expect everything to work out correctly. If Angel didn't come through, I would have decapitated the body of the woman I loved.

I know that during the hours that Fred was dying I would have planned what I would do if she actually died and have my weapon of choice beside me. I don't know whether I would have told Fred or not. I suspect she would have guessed my intentions. Love is a complicated thing. Saving the world is love. If you can't save someone, you can at least avenge his or her death. I don't know whether chopping off Fred's head would release Illyaria. I would have done so anyway, and if I was wrong I would have been the first to die from the infection.

 

[WyrdDemonHunter]

I think I must be different than most people. In Wesley's position I would have been frantic, yet I also know that I would think about the worst case scenario. I'm a realist I hardly ever expect everything to work out correctly. If Angel didn't come through, I would have decapitated the body of the woman I loved.

Well, unless it were set up properly in the story, that would have made for a really weird last minute of the show. 🙂 I think Wesley is capable of that sort of thing too, but not in the way that you apparently are. Previous evidence suggests that Wesley has to think about it for a while before he can chop off his ex-loved one's or ex-lover's head.

 

[Blackarachnia]

Well, unless it were set up properly in the story, that would have made for a really weird last minute of the show. 🙂 I think Wesley is capable of that sort of thing too, but not in the way that you apparently are. Previous evidence suggests that Wesley has to think about it for a while before he can chop off his ex-loved one's or ex-lover's head.

And we have to remember that Wes already had to decapitate Lilah and she was already dead yet that was a horrendous ordeal for him. And he really loved Fred - she was the one he had been waiting for. And he had no way of knowing if Angel was about to succeed. I think Fred knew she was close - she tried to warn him - she told him it wasn't long now but also begged him to stay with her.

I can't wait for tonight's episode.

 

[WyrdDemonHunter]

5x15 A Hole In The World connections

I went and briefly researched (via Google) the songs and story that were referenced in this episode. This is what I got:

Song that Gunn sings at start of episode:
Three Little Maids From School Are We
which is part of Mikado by Glibert & Sullivan

Song that Lorne sings (I know we all know it already, it's just here for completeness):
You Are My Sunshine (not sure on original writer).

Song that Eve briefly sings:
Pretty As A Picture by Christian Kane
Note: Song sings about the sky openning and burning us all and not being able to feel anything... interesting.

Book that Weseley reads to Fred:
A Little Princess by Frances Hodgson Burnett.